Punk rockers/anarchists and Libertarians, what is the difference?

[PC2]

Its a toll both economy. Your entire pay cheque gets swallowed up by economic rent.

If that's the case then the person either needs to gain more skills and increase their income or they need to downsize and stop living above their means.

[Shadowferal]

If that's the case then the person either needs to gain more skills and increase their income or they need to downsize and stop living above their means.

Yeah...you're full of fantastic examples of how it works...o wait. No. Your full of the same woeful ignorance that every libertarian reveals.

[Ivanstone]

If that's the case then the person either needs to gain more skills and increase their income or they need to downsize and stop living above their means.

If they gain more skills to become more competitive in the job market that means that their fancy new job comes at the expense of someone else. Meanwhile both people are still paying the same tolls. Also gaining new skills costs time and money which is a form of rent all by itself.

And what if you can’t downsize anymore?

[Milchshake]

A twenty page circlejerk on a gaming forum. Definitely the most poseur thing since hanging out at a Hot Topic at the mall.

[Ivanstone]

A twenty page circlejerk on a gaming forum. Definitely the most poseur thing since hanging out at a Hot Topic at the mall.

Someone was wrong in the internet. It needed to be fixed. If I do well Harlan Ellison will let me go to Heaven when I die.

[Machismo]

When you talk about less government you advocate for the powerful against the powerless. We've already tried your ideal world. It didn't work.

A regulation can be abused. A lack of regulation can also be abused. A malevolent entity will try to abuse either. The good amongst us will create positive legislation to help people and get rid of poor regulation if it arises. The opinions of an anarchist will be disregarded in any case.

Your opinion of this regulation exactly matched the opinion of a huge corporation. Loudly proclaiming your ignorance of their motivations is irrelevant. No one knows who the fuck your are in reality. For all we know you're one of their employees.

I'm literally arguing against that in this thread...

Your opinion of this regulation exactly matched that of a giant corporation... go figure.

I look forward you your blatant hypocrisy when conservatives start pushing their consumer protections.

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I thought this regulation was an example of corporate power creep? Why do you claim it's making the government more powerful? And your desire to privatize roads and the like is simply a desire to remove power from the government and turn it over to corporations. So, remind me who's the corporatist again?

It is, welcome to the conversation. Its making government bigger, more invasive, and more expensive.

Let's start small, by getting g rid of thus single regulation.

[Ivanstone]

I'm literally arguing against that in this thread...

Your opinion of this regulation exactly matched that of a giant corporation... go figure.

I look forward you your blatant hypocrisy when conservatives start pushing their consumer protections.

What you think you’re doing and what you’re actually doing are two totally different things.

Your opinion matched that of a much larger, less ethical corporation.... go figure.

Each individual regulation should be judged on its own merits. Nothing hypocritical about that.

[Machismo]

What you think you’re doing and what you’re actually doing are two totally different things.

Your opinion matched that of a much larger, less ethical corporation.... go figure.

Each individual regulation should be judged on its own merits. Nothing hypocritical about that.

What you think you're doing, and what you are actually doing, are very different.

Fucking corporatists...

Conservatives control the courts in the United States. I know you don't really give a shit, because you're a Brit or European. But, liberals and progressives actually in the United States should be very concerned.

In the next 20-30 years, you're going to see a great many shifts in policy due to those stacked courts. Now, I'll lament the loss of liberty, just like I lament it when progressives do the same. When that happens, progressives will have no cause to complain, because they do the same shit. The one silver lining for me, is that I will get to enjoy the abject misery of liberals and progressives as those losses stack up, and they see how shitty that medicine tastes.

I enjoyed the same when conservatives and Trumpsters got kicked to the curb. In the end, you guys are all about the same.

[Ivanstone]

What you think you're doing, and what you are actually doing, are very different.

Fucking corporatists...

Conservatives control the courts in the United States. I know you don't really give a shit, because you're a Brit or European. But, liberals and progressives actually in the United States should be very concerned.

In the next 20-30 years, you're going to see a great many shifts in policy due to those stacked courts. Now, I'll lament the loss of liberty, just like I lament it when progressives do the same. When that happens, progressives will have no cause to complain, because they do the same shit. The one silver lining for me, is that I will get to enjoy the abject misery of liberals and progressives as those losses stack up, and they see how shitty that medicine tastes.

I enjoyed the same when conservatives and Trumpsters got kicked to the curb. In the end, you guys are all about the same.

A both sides are the same argument. The true sign that you’re ashamed of the behaviour of your fellow conservatives. And yes you’re a conservative. Easily one of the most conservative posters on this board. For all of your big talk of liberty, the only liberty you ever advocated for is the liberty of the powerful to exercise their power.

[Machismo]

A both sides are the same argument. The true sign that you’re ashamed of the behaviour of your fellow conservatives. And yes you’re a conservative. Easily one of the most conservative posters on this board. For all of your big talk of liberty, the only liberty you ever advocated for is the liberty of the powerful to exercise their power.

When it comes to attacking liberties, there's not much difference between progressives and conservatives. The only real difference, is which freedoms you guys prefer to target. And yes, I am ashamed of my fellow so-called conservatives, because like you, most don't give a shit about liberty.

When I was wholeheartedly supporting legalizing gay marriage (for more than 20 years, now), which powerful entity was I advocating for?

The same goes for legalizing drugs.

And prostitution.

And abortion.

Are you saying I'm a corporatist for Planned Parenthood?

[Endus]

For all of your big talk of liberty, the only liberty you ever advocated for is the liberty of the powerful to exercise their power.

It's an interesting dichotomy that is going to inevitably come up, and really demonstrates why concepts like "liberty" or "freedom" are inherently impossible to use collectively.

Some people like to argue for the liberty and freedom for exploiters, to fully enact their will upon their lessers. Any restriction on their capacity to do so, clearly, reduces their freedom to act as they so choose. They will then suggest, generally, that "the market" is who chooses winners and losers, and should not be considered as a factor in discussing liberty and freedom to begin with.

Other people take the position that maximizing liberty for all cannot be done without restrictions on those who would so exploit those beneath them. Allowing that exploitation necessarily reduces the freedom and liberty of those who are exploited, and pointing to freedoms they cannot access due to poverty is not a functional counterargument.

There's no middle ground, there. And both are concepts based on "liberty", at least in some sense. The real discussion is on whether your vision of a "free society" is an exploitative one where the unworthy are metaphorically ground up by the system to make the bread for the wealthy, or if it's a society where everyone shares equally in the benefits of freedom from exploitation and oppression, even if constraints are placed on those who would engage in that very exploitation and oppression.

Some people would be perfectly fine with wage slaves being worked to death in the mines so that the billionaires can ensure their yachts are made from solid gold, just not gold plate, as long as those wage slaves are offered the option of which billionaire and which mine they die in. They would call that choice "freedom and liberty", and expect you to agree. I'll leave it up to you whether that's reasonable.

[Ivanstone]

When I was wholeheartedly supporting legalizing gay marriage (for more than 20 years, now), which powerful entity was I advocating for?

The same goes for legalizing drugs.

And prostitution.

And abortion.

Are you saying I'm a corporatist for Planned Parenthood?

Which required a constitutional amendment (ie a regulation) and 150 years of legal battles.

The unscrupulous will still sell drugs illlegally and would sell tainted drugs legally if allowed to. The opioid epidemic exists because legal drug use was not well regulated and weakly enforced.

Hope you don’t get AIDS from unregulated prostitution.

Abortion was made legal so it could be performed safely by regulated professions at regulated clinics.

I’m saying you’re a corporatist because you advocate for the removal of regulations which will only benefit the powerful.

[Machismo]

Which required a constitutional amendment (ie a regulation) and 150 years of legal battles.

The unscrupulous will still sell drugs illlegally and would sell tainted drugs legally if allowed to. The opioid epidemic exists because legal drug use was not well regulated and weakly enforced.

Hope you don’t get AIDS from unregulated prostitution.

Abortion was made legal so it could be performed safely by regulated professions at regulated clinics.

I’m saying you’re a corporatist because you advocate for the removal of regulations which will only benefit the powerful.

And yet, abortion is at risk... and liberals and progressives have nobody to blame but themselves. Until you correct me, I'll just assume you're British. Abortion rights in Britain aren't really in danger, so this is largely academic for you. But, in the United States, they are in real danger.

Liberals fucked around, and alienated voters. They lost an easy election, and it changed the direction of this country try for more than a generation. You alienated people not much different than me.

[Ivanstone]

And yet, abortion is at risk... and liberals and progressives have nobody to blame but themselves. Until you correct me, I'll just assume you're British. Abortion rights in Britain aren't really in danger, so this is largely academic for you. But, in the United States, they are in real danger.

Liberals fucked around, and alienated voters. They lost an easy election, and it changed the direction of this country try for more than a generation. You alienated people not much different than me.

Abortion is in real danger because powerful interest groups pushed for deregulation of other areas of the American legal system and were able to seize power. They’re now abusing that power. Generally they push for further deregulation with a few notable exceptions.

The American left did not fuck around. They lost because they have to fight in a game that was rigged against them. No one was alienated. They’re previously restrained poisonous beliefs were left off the leash.

[Glorious Leader]

If that's the case then the person either needs to gain more skills and increase their income or they need to downsize and stop living above their means.

Until that increase is swallowed by even more economic rent. I guess you can downsize to living in a Shack.

[Ivanstone]

Until that increase is swallowed by even more economic rent. I guess you can downsize to living in a Shack.

A shack. Really? This is the modern age. We’re going to get downsized into those crazy Japanese capsule hotels.

[Edge-]

A shack. Really? This is the modern age. We’re going to get downsized into those crazy Japanese capsule hotels.

They already exist in some major cities like NYC, it's someone's closet : |

https://abc7news.com/sf-closet-house...quare/5422628/

450 square feet of closet for $1.2K

[Machismo]

Abortion is in real danger because powerful interest groups pushed for deregulation of other areas of the American legal system and were able to seize power. They’re now abusing that power. Generally they push for further deregulation with a few notable exceptions.

The American left did not fuck around. They lost because they have to fight in a game that was rigged against them. No one was alienated. They’re previously restrained poisonous beliefs were left off the leash.

Abortion is at risk, because Trump won in 2016. It was easily the most important election of my lifetime, and led to a gigantic shift un power in the courts. That wasn't deregulation, that was an election.

As for the election system being tipped against Democrats (and far more tipped against third parties), that's the results of regulations, not deregulation

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Bulllllllshit. It’s amazing you blame progressives for what the GOP does. Especially IN TEXAS. Almost as ridiculous as you saying that defining products makes the government more powerful.

The Dems should gave easily won in 2016, but they pissed it away.

If you don't like it, blame all those regulations and laws that tipped the competitive playing field in favor of the GOP.

[Shadowferal]

Bulllllllshit. It’s amazing you blame progressives for what the GOP does. Especially IN TEXAS. Almost as ridiculous as you saying that defining products makes the government more powerful.

Next he'll claim Trump was a secret liberal.

[Machismo]

Next he'll claim Trump was a secret liberal.

Nope, Trump was just the one who was gifted a presidency and three SCOTUS picks. Those will be felt for more than a generation.

And yes, progressives like you did far more to get Trump elected than I ever could.