{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[uuuhname]

Because empty escapism is pointless faff, and audiences recognize that.

All fiction explores the human condition. That's the purpose of fiction, if one can be said to exist. It's true of ancient mythology, and it's true of modern storytelling. And the human condition is pretty much inevitably tied to political factors, because those humans exist within a society. That society, by virtue of its fictional representation, will inevitably be a commentary on some real society in some way or another. This applies to basically everything. Some films have a more obvious point to their politics, but they all have politics.

If you want empty escapism, you're gonna have to stop with something like Teletubbies. Once you graduate to Sesame Street or Mr. Rogers Neighbourhood, you're getting political messaging.

all very true. I guess I'm hoping people have more to add than YouTube reactionary level analysis.

[Syegfryed]

Yes, cars can move slower than 40 mph which is Steve sprint level.

There is a healing factor of the serum that was given to Blonsky which was made from the attempted recreation of the serum that Banner made.
So what's your point?

It is peak human potential. Not peak what humans can do at this current time. This is what you aren't getting.

"the plane" is not moving, have wheels and is in a totally different scenario, you are just joking by now.

they are beyond human potential, period, you can't deny that.

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And professional strongmen can carry two refrigerators or pull 18-wheelers, or even trains. The latter of which weighing north of 100 tons. Your point?

are you unironically saying those things are somehow equal as pulling a moving helicopter with one hand?

Blonsky was not dosed with super soldier serum. He was dosed with a gamma serum related to the Hulk's own transformation. Which is why he turns into the Abomination when that gets supercharged. Hulk's power set includes a massive healing factor.

First time was just the super soldier serum, for what i watch and in the last credit scenes with tony, he only got hulk like transformation when he asked the guy to put non him what hulk had, and he was already putting that in other animals

Already covered above. Combining strongman-level strength with Usain Bolt-level rapidity of movement could easily justify a 40mph top speed, and that's "faster than cars", depending on the circumstances.

no it was not, just take a look in the Steven running scene in his first move, he was running faster and most important constantly

and if you are combining two different types of human bodies, and making then last that much with a constantly run, it became beyond human capabilities, not "peak human"

[Egomaniac]

When it comes to whether Steve is "Peak Human" or "Superhuman"...everyone is right.

Steve is defined, by Marvel, as a "Peak Human". However, "Peak Humans" in Marvel are far beyond Peak humans in Actual Reality.

He can bench press at least half a ton...which is humanly possible...but he does it with about half as much muscle mass as those that are capable of the same.



He can run about 60 miles per hour...about twice as fast as Usain Bolt's best sprint....and he can maintain that speed for at least 5 minutes.



Defying the laws of physics...he can "see faster" than normal humans. Now, probably a better way to put it is that he can process visual data faster.



Added to that...The Super Soldier Serum gives him almost complete immunity from poisons and toxins. It even slows the build up of lactic acid in his body...so he can push himself to his limits for extended periods of time.

[Sorrowseer]

Maybe find a show about a superhero named "Captain Britain" then hehe

No thanks haha

[Darththeo]

Casually kicking a car with one leg by one good meter is totally normal

Well anyway, Super Soldiers are just dedicated crossfitters, we got it. One strongman pulling a (mockup) plane on its wheels, without brakes on, after pulling insane levels of efforts, does not mean he is at "Super Soldier" level. That seems obvious Super soldiers are above that, even if "slightly" (but definitely not). You can pull how many videos from Youtube you want, but all movies clearly show Super Soldiers are way above that every time they do something.

Only Falcon and Winter Soldier's version of Super Soldier seems to have Bucky nerfed to the ground, maybe because of mental aspects, we don't know (yet?), even if he seemed to be back on tracks when facing other super soldiers.

No, crossfitters are not peak human potential. They do not operate at peak human potential.

You are confusing "peak human potential" with something anyone could do given enough training. These are NOT the same thing.

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"the plane" is not moving, have wheels and is in a totally different scenario, you are just joking by now.

they are beyond human potential, period, you can't deny that.

Nope, the source material disagrees with you. Captain America is defined as the peak human potential in all aspects.

Your only counter is "I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT IS TRUE!" that's not an argument.

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You do realize that plane has wheels right?

According to :https://www.cinemablend.com/new/How-...er-130497.html
he would have to be 10 times stronger than the strongest normal humans. Thats Hercules levels of strength.

Look at the clip of the scene. It is not a traditional bicep curl. If you are comparing to the exercise of a bicep curl it is a misunderstanding of what is actually happening in that scene.

It isn't just cap's bicep keeping the helicopter down. Look at Bucky as well.

[Egomaniac]

From the words of Ed Brubaker himself. The man who wrote Captain America for 8 years.

"I agree with parts of a lot of people's comments here and elsewhere. But I think it's a bit funny to see people get so bent out of shape when a guy who's given something called the "Super Soldier Serum" turns out to be a bit more than the average human. He's been leaping out of the windows of eight story buildings and across city streets in NYC, dodging bullets, doing amazing feats of speed and strength, since I started reading the book in the early 70s.

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olypic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50plus years trying to replicate the SSS?

All I've done is have him say outloud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph. In the comic, I think he says he can run a mile in a little over a minute when he HAS to. It's not even implied that he can keep that up all day. It's a full-on burst of speed, when he has to."

[qwerty123456]

Look at the clip of the scene. It is not a traditional bicep curl. If you are comparing to the exercise of a bicep curl it is a misunderstanding of what is actually happening in that scene.

It isn't just cap's bicep keeping the helicopter down. Look at Bucky as well.

Watch it again. Steve starts pulling the helicopter down then Bucky does the "fuck you" tilt towards him so he has to let go. Not sure why you are so obsessed with cap being just peak human. I think I'm going to trust the people who actually did the calculations instead of someone saying "nope" with no evidence that a slightly buffed human could do that.

[Darththeo]

Watch it again. Steve starts pulling the helicopter down then Bucky does the "fuck you" tilt towards him so he has to let go. Not sure why you are so obsessed with cap being just peak human. I think I'm going to trust the people who actually did the calculations instead of someone saying "nope" with no evidence that a slightly buffed human could do that.

1) anyone can pull numbers out of their ass.
2) The bolded is a strawman of my argument.

My argument isn't "Anyone with enough training can do exactly what Captain America can do." it is "Captain America is peak human potential."

Right now it is possible that humans could run 40 mph, but there are limits on the human body that prevent that from happening (essentially muscles tearing, bones breaking, etc). Captain doesn't have those limitations.

Captain America is above what normal humans can do. He is above what humans can do when they train to the extent that is currently possible. Captain America is literally the best a human could possible be in all aspects at the same time. He isn't god tier.

I am not even a fan of Captain America, so I don't know why I am still bothering with you guys on this because all you guys are not actually arguing against what my argument is but rather a weaker version of it because you want to whine about something you don't even care to understand. You only counter is "HE IS OBVIOUSLY A WHOLE HELL OF A LOT STRONGER." Yes, but that doesn't mean he is outside human potential.

Peak human potential =/= peak current human ability which is what your sole argument against me is.

[Reydan]

Don't forget the most obvious - neither are particularly exciting characters. Yes, they're well written and all that, but they're just regular people. Wandavision meanwhile, had two of the more interesting Avengers - Wanda, with her magic and mind powers, and Vision, with all of his cybernetic shenanigans.

Sam and Bucky are far more exciting than Wanda or Vision.

[qwerty123456]

1) anyone can pull numbers out of their ass.
2) The bolded is a strawman of my argument.

My argument isn't "Anyone with enough training can do exactly what Captain America can do." it is "Captain America is peak human potential."

Right now it is possible that humans could run 40 mph, but there are limits on the human body that prevent that from happening (essentially muscles tearing, bones breaking, etc). Captain doesn't have those limitations.

Captain America is above what normal humans can do. He is above what humans can do when they train to the extent that is currently possible. Captain America is literally the best a human could possible be in all aspects at the same time. He isn't god tier.

I am not even a fan of Captain America, so I don't know why I am still bothering with you guys on this because all you guys are not actually arguing against what my argument is but rather a weaker version of it because you want to whine about something you don't even care to understand. You only counter is "HE IS OBVIOUSLY A WHOLE HELL OF A LOT STRONGER." Yes, but that doesn't mean he is outside human potential.

Peak human potential =/= peak current human ability which is what your sole argument against me is.

Yeah anyone can pull numbers out of thier ass but I doubt Nerdist would have done so and nobody has corrected the numbers as far as I can tell.

You keep claiming stuff as facts but don't actually prove anything. If a bone can only take X amount of force then that is peak human potential anything beyond that is super human. Wikipedia: "the term superhuman refers to humans or human-like lifeforms with enhanced qualities and abilities that exceed those naturally found in humans."

And no the sole argument against you isn't that modern humans can't do it its that according to people who actually did the math he would have to be 10 times stronger than the strongest humans that currently exist.

Show me some evidence that its possible humans can get that powerful. Nobody is saying he's god tier but it is interesting that Hercules was said to be as strong as 10 men and Captain America is apparently stronger than 10 top tier men.....

[Darththeo]

Yeah anyone can pull numbers out of thier ass but I doubt Nerdist would have done so and nobody has corrected the numbers as far as I can tell.

You keep claiming stuff as facts but don't actually prove anything. If a bone can only take X amount of force then that is peak human potential anything beyond that is super human. Wikipedia: "the term superhuman refers to humans or human-like lifeforms with enhanced qualities and abilities that exceed those naturally found in humans."

And no the sole argument against you isn't that modern humans can't do it its that according to people who actually did the math he would have to be 10 times stronger than the strongest humans that currently exist.

Show me some evidence that its possible humans can get that powerful. Nobody is saying he's god tier but it is interesting that Hercules was said to be as strong as 10 men and Captain America is apparently stronger than 10 top tier men.....

The fact the Nerdist called it a "bicep curl" despite the fact he is using both arms and legs braced to pull the helicopter is what I have the problem with. They are comparing to just a bicep curl when that isn't what it was. It was more than that. This is pretty much show when he FAILED to stop it from getting off the pad and only managed to start pulling it back when his legs were braced at an angle and he had a solid grip on the something solid.

If you are going to use that definition of superhuman, then the strong men mentioned also apply to it ... in fact the wikipedia article you quoted includes athletes as performing superhuman feats. So essentially using that definition, many more characters in the MCU who aren't classified as "Super human" in source material become super human. Black Widow (who currently in the MCU is NOT defined as a superhuman by any measure) meets that definition.

The reason I bring up peak human potential is that he isn't leagues above normal people or even trained people. Still above, but someone who isn't peak human potential would still be able to hurt him, cause him pain, and beat him in a fight.

I don't have to "show you" crap because the source material confirms that the serum brought Captain America to peak human potential. If you don't like the source material, that is on you. And given that your wikipedia article actually more supports me than you (hence why I think you didn't bother to read beyond the first sentence) ... you lost.

[Skulltaker]

The fact the Nerdist called it a "bicep curl" despite the fact he is using both arms and legs braced to pull the helicopter is what I have the problem with. They are comparing to just a bicep curl when that isn't what it was. It was more than that. This is pretty much show when he FAILED to stop it from getting off the pad and only managed to start pulling it back when his legs were braced at an angle and he had a solid grip on the something solid.

If you are going to use that definition of superhuman, then the strong men mentioned also apply to it ... in fact the wikipedia article you quoted includes athletes as performing superhuman feats. So essentially using that definition, many more characters in the MCU who aren't classified as "Super human" in source material become super human. Black Widow (who currently in the MCU is NOT defined as a superhuman by any measure) meets that definition.

The reason I bring up peak human potential is that he isn't leagues above normal people or even trained people. Still above, but someone who isn't peak human potential would still be able to hurt him, cause him pain, and beat him in a fight.

I don't have to "show you" crap because the source material confirms that the serum brought Captain America to peak human potential. If you don't like the source material, that is on you. And given that your wikipedia article actually more supports me than you (hence why I think you didn't bother to read beyond the first sentence) ... you lost.

Well, he's beating the world record in weight lifting by a factor of 3, with a sub-optimal grip, at a disadvantageuous angle, I'd say it's fairly obvious that the writers threw 'peak human potential' out the window for this scene for sheer coolness. Which is fine. But if you imply that what Cap does is potentially humanly possible you're out of your mind. The writers may have decided that's the case for the MCU, but no member of Homo sapiens is potentially capable of holding down a starting chopper.

[Darththeo]

Well, he's beating the world record in weight lifting by a factor of 3, with a sub-optimal grip, at a disadvantageuous angle, I'd say it's fairly obvious that the writers threw 'peak human potential' out the window for this scene for sheer coolness. Which is fine. But if you imply that what Cap does is potentially humanly possible you're out of your mind. The writers may have decided that's the case for the MCU, but no member of Homo sapiens is potentially capable of holding down a starting chopper.

Correct, because no member of homo sapiens is at peak human potential (especially when defined by MCU standard where normal humans do super human shit).

As D&D was brought up, let me use this as an example. (Note: I know rules allow for higher, but I am not getting into those).

A normal average human has 10 in all abilities across the board.
Trained mortals in a specific ability can get to 18 potentially 20, but those at "peak" for mortals would have 20 in each stat.

Obviously someone who has 20 in each stat is a broken ass character when compared to trained individuals.

[Skulltaker]

Correct, because no member of homo sapiens is at peak human potential (especially when defined by MCU standard where normal humans do super human shit).

No. No member of Homo Sapiens can reach this level. This is bejond human capabilities.

[Darththeo]

No. No member of Homo Sapiens can reach this level. This is bejond human capabilities.

Yeah, science doesn't actually believe that. If you feel that is fine, but there is no proof such a belief is correct.

[Skulltaker]

Correct, because no member of homo sapiens is at peak human potential (especially when defined by MCU standard where normal humans do super human shit).

As D&D was brought up, let me use this as an example. (Note: I know rules allow for higher, but I am not getting into those).

A normal average human has 10 in all abilities across the board.
Trained mortals in a specific ability can get to 18 potentially 20, but those at "peak" for mortals would have 20 in each stat.

Obviously someone who has 20 in each stat is a broken ass character when compared to trained individuals.

Yeah, no. I'm not using a flawed metric in a pen and paper to consider what's possible in real life.

The human body has limits that cannot be surpassed with training or discipline. The notion that a human should theoretically be capable of performing like Captain America is ridiculous. It's a cute notion the writers put out there, but they are comic book writers with no further understanding of human physiology. Strength alone is not the only factor that limits human capabilities.

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Yeah, science doesn't actually believe that. If you feel that is fine, but there is no proof such a belief is correct.

Mkay, I'm sure you'll find a couple of peer reviewed papers that support that notion, right?

[Egomaniac]

No. No member of Homo Sapiens can reach this level. This is bejond human capabilities.

Once again I feel i should point this out

Ed Brubaker. A guy that wrote captain America for 8 years said this:

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olypic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50plus years trying to replicate the SSS?

He's not talking about current human capacity...he's talking about the endgame of human evolution. So as i said earlier... everyone is right. Cap is both Super human and "Peak Human".

And honestly, if you take a good look at any "peak human" comic book character...they are all well above what a peak human is in reality. Not just with Marvel..DC is just as guilty of this.

[Darththeo]

Yeah, no. I'm not using a flawed metric in a pen and paper to consider what's possible in real life.

It isn't a metric. It's call an "example" of what the topic is to help you more easily understand. So by this, you have shown that you don't actually care.

The human body has limits that cannot be surpassed with training or discipline. The notion that a human should theoretically be capable of performing like Captain America is ridiculous. It's a cute notion the writers put out there, but they are comic book writers with no further understanding of human physiology. Strength alone is not the only factor that limits human capabilities.

Yes, it isn't like scientists are realizing that humans could potentially run 40 MPH ... oh wait, they have.
It isn't like hysterical strength where non-trained or disciplined people have performed feats that even people who train struggle to do routinely ... oh wait, they have.

Essentially you are saying it is "not possible" because you have accepted it to be "not possible" to begin with. You are factually wrong, I am sorry, there is no other way to put in. I have even addressed your bs here before because part of what being peak human is bypassing the limitations that the body places on itself so you jumped in and didn't bother to read you aren't bringing up any valid point that hasn't already been address.

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Mkay, I'm sure you'll find a couple of peer reviewed papers that support that notion, right?

Hysterical Strength. Do you doubt its existence?

[Skulltaker]

Once again I feel i should point this out

Ed Brubaker. A guy that wrote captain America for 8 years said this:




He's not talking about current human capacity...he's talking about the endgame of human evolution. So as i said earlier... everyone is right. Cap is both Super human and "Peak Human".

Yeah. That's very nice of Mr. Brubaker. But it remains a fantasy. It's nice of him to envision such a future for mankind, but it isn't based in reality or any science whatsoever.

[Endus]

The fact the Nerdist called it a "bicep curl" despite the fact he is using both arms and legs braced to pull the helicopter is what I have the problem with. They are comparing to just a bicep curl when that isn't what it was. It was more than that. This is pretty much show when he FAILED to stop it from getting off the pad and only managed to start pulling it back when his legs were braced at an angle and he had a solid grip on the something solid.

He doesn't pull the chopper in. He's just trying to hold it in place. I nearly smashed off a finger when I found out the difference between holding a certain weight, and trying to lift that weight higher (and by "nearly", I mean it was only a partial amputation, not that I got my hand out of there in time; there was still a flap of skin and tissue holding my finger pieces together). Deadlifting isn't just about being able to hold a certain weight, it's about being able to move that weight.

And there's no indication that Bucky's pushing the chopper to its maximum lift potential. He tries to fly off, notices Steve's holding on, and immediately just tries to kill Steve, sacrificing the chopper to do so. Anyone pointing to the maximum lift potential of the vehicle is kind of missing the point of the scene.