{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Darththeo]

Yeah. That's very nice of Mr. Brubaker. But it remains a fantasy. It's nice of him to envision such a future for mankind, but it isn't based in reality or any science whatsoever.

No one is arguing that Steve Rogers could be a real guy. The entire argument is hypothetical and also is built in science if you actually bothered to know what the science is.

We are talking realm of possibility, not realm of reality.

What you are doing is that guy when people are talking about how to bring back non-avian dinosaurs and discussing the possible science behind it going "It isn't based in reality whatsoever." All it shows is YOUR ignorance.

[Egomaniac]

Yeah. That's very nice of Mr. Brubaker. But it remains a fantasy. It's nice of him to envision such a future for mankind, but it isn't based in reality or any science whatsoever.

Who said anything about being based in reality? This is talking about how a fictional character is written...

You might as well say that vampires not being able to cross running water isn't based in reality.

[Skulltaker]

It isn't a metric. It's call an "example" of what the topic is to help you more easily understand. So by this, you have shown that you don't actually care.



Yes, it isn't like scientists are realizing that humans could potentially run 40 MPH ... oh wait, they have.
It isn't like hysterical strength where non-trained or disciplined people have performed feats that even people who train struggle to do routinely ... oh wait, they have.

Essentially you are saying it is "not possible" because you have accepted it to be "not possible" to begin with. You are factually wrong, I am sorry, there is no other way to put in. I have even addressed your bs here before because part of what being peak human is bypassing the limitations that the body places on itself so you jumped in and didn't bother to read you aren't bringing up any valid point that hasn't already been address.

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Hysterical Strength. Do you doubt its existence?

Hysterical strength doesn't allow you to go beyond the limitations that are imposed upon the human body by the laws of nature and the properties of the tissue that makes up our body. It's one thing to lift a car off of a person, it is another to stop a chopper that takes off. I'm saying it isn't possible because I have studied and cut open the human body for nearly 15 years now and have the MD and experience to show for it.

And Cap isn't running 40 mph, he's running 60. He's not lifting a car, he's preventing a 2500 lbs helicoptre with a carrying capacity of 3000 lbs to take off, a chopper that's actively fighting his grip. "Hysterical strength" isn't a blank card that allows you to assume what else could be possible.

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We are talking realm of possibility, not realm of reality.

And I'm telling you again that this is out of the realm of possibility.

[Egomaniac]

And I'm telling you again that this is out of the realm of possibility.

Not in a world where getting bit by a radioactive spider means you can bench press over 10 tons...

[Skulltaker]

We are talking realm of possibility, not realm of reality.

Who said anything about being based in reality? This is talking about how a fictional character is written...

The guy above you.

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Not in a world where getting bit by a radioactive spider means you can bench press over 10 tons...

And I have no issues with that whatsoever. I'm arguing with the guy who says cap's feat is within the realm of possibility. Which it isn't.

Again, and I've said that befor, if the writers want to declare Cap to be what is potentially possible for humanity withing the MCU, sure. Cool. No issue whatsoever. If someone says that humans, here on Earth, could one day do this, I'm going to tell them that's BS.

I'd also like to add that all cases of hysterical strength so far are only based on reports of eye witnesses. There are no conclusive studies on the topic so far. Adrenaline can numb the pain caused by tearing muscles to a degree that allows humans to push their limits, yes.

[Darththeo]

Hysterical strength doesn't allow you to go beyond the limitations that are imposed upon the human body by the laws of nature and the properties of the tissue that makes up our body. It's one thing to lift a car off of a person, it is another to stop a chopper that takes off. I'm saying it isn't possible because I have studied and cut open the human body for nearly 15 years now and have the MD and experience to show for it.

And Cap isn't running 40 mph, he's running 60. He's not lifting a car, he's preventing a 2500 lbs helicoptre with a carrying capacity of 3000 lbs to take off, a chopper that's actively fighting his grip. "Hysterical strength" isn't a blank card that allows you to assume what else could be possible.

So you don't even know the definition of hysterical strength because it is literally defined as going beyond the normal. People have literally torn their tendons off their bones during fits of it. You are saying it is 100% impossible for humans to ever find away beyond that?

Also, MCU Cap is running 26 mph and can sprint to over 40 mph ... he does not run 60 mph in the MCU. He sprints at 60 mph in the comics. MCU cap is weaker than Comics Cap (as is true for most MCU counterparts). The only thing true is that Cap in most media including the MCU is peak human potential ... the most a human could ever possibly do.

You are confusing "not possible" with "no evidence."

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And I have no issues with that whatsoever. I'm arguing with the guy who says cap's feat is within the realm of possibility. Which it isn't.

Again, and I've said that befor, if the writers want to declare Cap to be what is potentially possible for humanity withing the MCU, sure. Cool. No issue whatsoever. If someone says that humans, here on Earth, could one day do this, I'm going to tell them that's BS.

It only isn't because you declare it isn't. You don't know what is going to happen in the future. You do not know how humans will evolve and species line isn't as clear as we like to pretend it is.

Again, you are that pedantic person when people are talking about the possible ways to bring back non-avian dinosaurs going "It isn't possible" and your only evidence is personal incredulity.

[Endus]

He's not lifting a car, he's preventing a 2500 lbs helicoptre with a carrying capacity of 3000 lbs to take off, a chopper that's actively fighting his grip.

This is seriously not what happens in that scene. I'll embed it.



Bucky starts to lift off gently.
Steve rushes over as it lifts off, and grabs on.
His weight alone is enough to offset the lift force the chopper's generating, and drag it back down; Bucky was not trying to take off quickly.
The chopper drifts sideways, and Steve grabs the railing as it goes past the edge.
They do a pointed shot of the stick, showing that Bucky is not pulling at it to try and get away.
Bucky looks outside, sees Steve, and doesn't make any effort to pull away, he just immediately tries to ram Steve with the chopper.

There's no reason to think Bucky had juiced the lift at all. If Steve's what, 250-300lb weight was enough to drag it back down, even an 800lb weightlift potential is more than enough to explain what Steve's achieving, in that scene, even if we assume each arm can only pull with half that force.

There is no indication in the scene at any point that Bucky is making any serious effort to push the aircraft anywhere close to its capacity.

[Skulltaker]

So you don't even know the definition of hysterical strength because it is literally defined as going beyond the normal.

Also, MCU Cap is running 26 mph and can sprint to over 40 mph ... he does not run 60 mph in the MCU. He sprints at 60 mph in the comics. MCU cap is weaker than Comics Cap (as is true for most MCU counterparts). The only thing true is that Cap in most media including the MCU is peak human potential ... the most a human could ever possibly do.

You are confusing "not possible" with "no evidence."

You know, if you have to leave out parts of the definition to suit your agenda, that casts a really poor light on you, buddy. It's 'what is believed to be normal'. And if you bothered to read beyond Wikipedias first sentence you'd also know that its existence is disputed, mostly because it has never been observed in a controlled environment.

I'd ask you, again, for the peer reviewed paper that states that stopping a chopper is potentially humanly possible.

[qwerty123456]

The fact the Nerdist called it a "bicep curl" despite the fact he is using both arms and legs braced to pull the helicopter is what I have the problem with. They are comparing to just a bicep curl when that isn't what it was. It was more than that. This is pretty much show when he FAILED to stop it from getting off the pad and only managed to start pulling it back when his legs were braced at an angle and he had a solid grip on the something solid.

If you are going to use that definition of superhuman, then the strong men mentioned also apply to it ... in fact the wikipedia article you quoted includes athletes as performing superhuman feats. So essentially using that definition, many more characters in the MCU who aren't classified as "Super human" in source material become super human. Black Widow (who currently in the MCU is NOT defined as a superhuman by any measure) meets that definition.

The reason I bring up peak human potential is that he isn't leagues above normal people or even trained people. Still above, but someone who isn't peak human potential would still be able to hurt him, cause him pain, and beat him in a fight.

I don't have to "show you" crap because the source material confirms that the serum brought Captain America to peak human potential. If you don't like the source material, that is on you. And given that your wikipedia article actually more supports me than you (hence why I think you didn't bother to read beyond the first sentence) ... you lost.

Lol he isn't stopping the helicopter because a helicopter is designed to lift more mass then he has. He is only able to stop it by basically turning himself into a chain to keep the helicopter attached to the building. Did you seriously think somebody weighing 200 or so lbs could just pull down without being attached to anything and it could drop a helicopter designed to lift a ton more weight than that? His bicep was curled.


Again peak human potential can't exceed the limits of the human body. Otherwise its superhuman. Are you one of those people that think the humans only use 10% of their brain power myth means that eventually humans could unlock 100% and do crazy shit?

Did you actually read the wiki link? It says that some athletes do feats that are seen as superhuman because they do stuff beyond the limits of average humans it doesn't say they are.

Not sure why you are so hung up on this but its physically impossible for humans to ever get that much power physically. Biology can only do so much. Look at how many calories bodybuilders and strongmen need to consume now imagine how much calories, oxygen, and shit you would need to do 10 times what they can do.

[Darththeo]

Lol he isn't stopping the helicopter because a helicopter is designed to lift more mass then he has. He is only able to stop it by basically turning himself into a chain to keep the helicopter attached to the building. Did you seriously think somebody weighing 200 or so lbs could just pull down without being attached to anything and it could drop a helicopter designed to lift a ton more weight than that? His bicep was curled.

Yes, but a curled bicep and a bicep curl are not the same thing.

Again peak human potential can't exceed the limits of the human body. Otherwise its superhuman. Are you one of those people that think the humans only use 10% of their brain power myth means that eventually humans could unlock 100% and do crazy shit?

Did you actually read the wiki link? It says that some athletes do feats that are seen as superhuman because they do stuff beyond the limits of average humans it doesn't say they are.

Not sure why you are so hung up on this but its physically impossible for humans to ever get that much power physically. Biology can only do so much. Look at how many calories bodybuilders and strongmen need to consume now imagine how much calories, oxygen, and shit you would need to do 10 times what they can do.

I don't know why you can't understand that someone at peak human potential would seem super human to someone who isn't.

[Skulltaker]

This is seriously not what happens in that scene. I'll embed it.



Bucky starts to lift off gently.
Steve rushes over as it lifts off, and grabs on.
His weight alone is enough to offset the lift force the chopper's generating, and drag it back down; Bucky was not trying to take off quickly.
The chopper drifts sideways, and Steve grabs the railing as it goes past the edge.
They do a pointed shot of the stick, showing that Bucky is not pulling at it to try and get away.
Bucky looks outside, sees Steve, and doesn't make any effort to pull away, he just immediately tries to ram Steve with the chopper.

There's no reason to think Bucky had juiced the lift at all. If Steve's what, 250-300lb weight was enough to drag it back down, even an 800lb weightlift potential is more than enough to explain what Steve's achieving, in that scene, even if we assume each arm can only pull with half that force.

There is no indication in the scene at any point that Bucky is making any serious effort to push the aircraft anywhere close to its capacity.

Even if he doesn't push the engine to its limits, he's still providing enough force to stop an adversely moving 2500 pound chopper, not accounting for bucky and fuel. I'll not go into him actually pulling the chopper down with no support whatsoever while dangling in the air.

Bucky also holds the chopper long enough for the obligatory 'engine in distress' warning in the chopper to go off, so at least the movie suggests to the viewer that Cap is stronger than the chopper.

[Darththeo]

You know, if you have to leave out parts of the definition to suit your agenda, that casts a really poor light on you, buddy. It's 'what is believed to be normal'. And if you bothered to read beyond Wikipedias first sentence you'd also know that its existence is disputed, mostly because it has never been observed in a controlled environment.

I'd ask you, again, for the peer reviewed paper that states that stopping a chopper is potentially humanly possible.

I would ask you to show a paper that proves it is 100% impossible. Again, you are arguing it is impossible for it to ever happen.

If you are changing your point to you don't believe it is possible. I don't care, that is irrelevant.

I am arguing about a hypothetical possibility.

[Endus]

Even if he doesn't push the engine to its limits, he's still providing enough force to stop an adversely moving 2500 pound chopper. I'll not go into him actually pulling the chopper down with no support whatsoever.

Sure he is.

Same way professional strong men can exert enough force to pull a 150 ton train. Doesn't mean they can deadlift that weight.

Also, Steve doesn't have to lift the chopper. The chopper's already doing that. All he has to do is offset the amount of force that's making it drift to the side, since Bucky's not actually trying to fly off yet.

Bucky also holds the chopper long enough for the obligatory 'engine in distress' warning in the chopper to go off, so at least the movie suggests to the viewer that Cap is stronger than the chopper.

I don't know the alarm sounds for that brand of chopper. Do you? Do you even know if they made an effort for them to be represented in the sound editing?

C'mon. That sound could literally mean anything. It could be a proximity warning for all we know.

What we DO know is that they show the stick, and Bucky is deliberately not pulling away from the launch pad. And then he looks down, sees Steve, and he grabs the stick and rams it towards Steve. So we know what it would have looked like, had he been trying to go the other way, and that means he clearly wasn't.

IIRC, up/down in a helicopter is largely controlled by pedals, and we don't see Bucky's feet, but I have no reason to assume he's trying to pull the chopper away with as much force as possible when everything else about the scene argues against that.

[Skulltaker]

I would ask you to show a paper that proves it is 100% impossible. Again, you are arguing it is impossible for it to ever happen.

I am arguing about a hypothetical possibility.

That's the beauty of the burden of proof. It lies with the party that makes the claim that something is. So, goood luck. But if you'd like to educate yourself on what the human body can do, and what its limits lie, I'm sure once the pandemic is over you can enroll in your local university in a couple of courses on human anatomy or physiology.

And no, it isn't hypothetically possible.

[Egomaniac]

Even if he doesn't push the engine to its limits, he's still providing enough force to stop an adversely moving 2500 pound chopper, not accounting for bucky and fuel. I'll not go into him actually pulling the chopper down with no support whatsoever while dangling in the air.

Bucky also holds the chopper long enough for the obligatory 'engine in distress' warning in the chopper to go off, so at least the movie suggests to the viewer that Cap is stronger than the chopper.

A Really strong rope could do the same thing Steve does. Steve is not preventing the helicopter from lifting off...the building is. Steve is just providing the tether.

Steve is not stronger than the chopper...The building is.

[Darththeo]

That's the beauty of the burden of proof. It lies with the party that makes the claim that something is. So, goood luck.

And no, it isn't hypothetically possible.

Yeah, that is a gross oversimplification of the burden of proof. It isn't just on what is. It depends on the claim made.

If you claim something is impossible or not possible or not hypothetically possible ... that is a claim that requires proof. You aren't saying "I don't believe it is possible." or "I have yet to see anything that shows it to be possible." You are claiming 100% it is not possible. That is a claim and that also requires the burden of proof.

And given that transhumanism is a thing that people are looking into. I would expect a doctor to know that people are still researching the extent that the human body can go and we don't actually know the limits. So by definition is is 100% hypothetical possible. Get a refund for your degree, it clearly failed you.

[qwerty123456]

Yes, but a curled bicep and a bicep curl are not the same thing.



I don't know why you can't understand that someone at peak human potential would seem super human to someone who isn't.

That's not how peak human potential works bud. There's a natural cap to everything. That's why Godzilla and King Kong couldn't actually exist.

This is seriously not what happens in that scene. I'll embed it.



Bucky starts to lift off gently.
Steve rushes over as it lifts off, and grabs on.
His weight alone is enough to offset the lift force the chopper's generating, and drag it back down; Bucky was not trying to take off quickly.
The chopper drifts sideways, and Steve grabs the railing as it goes past the edge.
They do a pointed shot of the stick, showing that Bucky is not pulling at it to try and get away.
Bucky looks outside, sees Steve, and doesn't make any effort to pull away, he just immediately tries to ram Steve with the chopper.

There's no reason to think Bucky had juiced the lift at all. If Steve's what, 250-300lb weight was enough to drag it back down, even an 800lb weightlift potential is more than enough to explain what Steve's achieving, in that scene, even if we assume each arm can only pull with half that force.

There is no indication in the scene at any point that Bucky is making any serious effort to push the aircraft anywhere close to its capacity.

Bucky is in the middle of stabilizing the Helicopter after Steve jumps onto it. A helicopter isn't just a pull a stick up and go type of machine you gotta make adjustments. And he continues to stabilize it while Steve locks onto the building. You can see the sticks jiggle a bit when Steve starts to pull the helicopter down which is when Bucky decides to say fuck it and tilt the controls towards Steve.

A Really strong rope could do the same thing Steve does. Steve is not preventing the helicopter from lifting off...the building is. Steve is just providing the tether.

Steve is not stronger than the chopper...The building is.

He begins to pull the helicopter down. You can see it in the video Endus linked.

[Syegfryed]

Nope, the source material disagrees with you. Captain America is defined as the peak human potential in all aspects.

Your only counter is "I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT IS TRUE!" that's not an argument.

source materials literally show him doing beyond human things lmao, your only counter is saying those inhuman acts are "human" if you mix totally different human bodies in one, and assume the performance will be the same.

[Skulltaker]

Sure he is.

Same way professional strong men can exert enough force to pull a 150 ton train. Doesn't mean they can deadlift that weight.

Also, Steve doesn't have to lift the chopper. The chopper's already doing that. All he has to do is offset the amount of force that's making it drift to the side, since Bucky's not actually trying to fly off yet.



I don't know the alarm sounds for that brand of chopper. Do you? Do you even know if they made an effort for them to be represented in the sound editing?

C'mon. That sound could literally mean anything. It could be a proximity warning for all we know.

The chopper isn't drifting. It's not a blimp. It generates lift relative to the alignment of the main rotor, which stays level. So however strong Steve is pulling, it's enough to fight both the strength with which the chopper is pulling away, sideways, as well as the upward lift.

And how I know the sound means a troubled engine; Rules of filmmaking. No resource is wasted. If they bothered to edit in a sound, they meant to imply something related to the situation. Unless you think we're supposed to believe cap can hear the sound inside the cockpit while the engine is running? I've flown a great deal in choppers while working as a paramedic with MSF. I can't rule out that they have a proximity alert, but it sure as hell doesn't sound while the chopper is taking off or when it is operating/people are near the cabin outside.

[Egomaniac]

That's the beauty of the burden of proof. It lies with the party that makes the claim that something is. So, goood luck. But if you'd like to educate yourself on what the human body can do, and what its limits lie, I'm sure once the pandemic is over you can enroll in your local university in a couple of courses on human anatomy or physiology.

And no, it isn't hypothetically possible.

Once again, we're talking about a world where radioactive spider bites make you strong enough to bench press 10 tons. You need to modify your ideas of what is "hypothetically possible"

In the Marvel universe..it is hypothetically possible that humans could at some point evolve to the physical level of Steve Rogers. That's what they mean when they say he is at the peak of human potential.