Warcraft 3 undead campaign is just Jailor's assets fighting against eachother

[ZazuuPriest]

Why are people finding this so hard to grasp?

The Dreadlords are infiltrators.
They didn't "fight" Arthas and whatnot because they wanted to win.
They had the whole Burning Legion and Kil'jaeden to play with.

Look at the book of inflitration or what it's called.
It perfectly explains that the Dreadlords are willing to go as far as possible to "prove" their loyalty.
While temporarily this MIGHT mean that they have to help their enemies they have long-term goals.

This is the whole point of this.
It's not even a retcon. Things happened exactly the same in the past.
Just now we have an additional layer as to why or how.

i really hope there is no permanent damage from you taking it up the ass so hard to Danuser and his awful team of teenage edgelord fanfic writers

Infracted.

[Garymorilix]

1. Calm down Steve, SL sold fine your job's secure.
2. Either you don't understand how close the legion came to achieving their ultimate stated goal explicitly through instruments we now know are loyal to the jailer, you don't understand how lethal a legion victory is to the jailers plan or you don't understand how unrelated to the jailer's assets the legion's defeat was.
Yes, deep-cover spies do things potentially against their actual master in order to embed themselves. They don't aid the people they're supposed to be spying on to the point their true master can no longer succeed.

As far as I can see the Burning Legion is no more, am I correct?

But sure, let's go with your rethorical take as it makes more sense than reality to you.
The burden of proof lies on you to prove that:
1) They didn't have a back-up plan
2) The destruction of Azeroth would mean the defeat of Death overall (as we know the Light and Nature forces have also been infiltrated already)

We also know that the Burning Legion did assault Bastion and Maldraxxus beat their asses back.
So it's not like the BL is that much more of a hardcore army, especially since Death has also an infinite supply of soldiers.

- - - Updated - - -

i really hope there is no permanent damage from you taking it up the ass so hard to Danuser and his awful team of teenage edgelord fanfic writers

Only those suffer permanent damage who can't handle the expansion of lore that was written 20 years ago.
"But back in my day" is supposed to be a grandpa meme, not taken seriously.

[Ardenaso]

I always knew something was up when Detheroc said "The Legion may be defeated, but we are the Nathrezim!" implying they are something above the Legion themselves

[Aleksej89]

Do not take any lore since BFA released seriously.
The current writing team blizz has for wow are elementary school dropouts.

Blizzard story telling was always basic but these past few years for Wow have been humiliating.

[Saltysquidoon]

As far as I can see the Burning Legion is no more, am I correct?

But sure, let's go with your rethorical take as it makes more sense than reality to you.
The burden of proof lies on you to prove that:
1) They didn't have a back-up plan
2) The destruction of Azeroth would mean the defeat of Death overall (as we know the Light and Nature forces have also been infiltrated already)

We also know that the Burning Legion did assault Bastion and Maldraxxus beat their asses back.
So it's not like the BL is that much more of a hardcore army, especially since Death has also an infinite supply of soldiers.

What did the jailer's forces do that contributed to the legion's destruction? Get their pretend home planet blown up by illidan?

They didn't have a back up plan? Steve we aren't even at backup plan yet.
What was their primary plan? Unironically help the legion (except arthas and LK who's only contribution to the war after summoning Archimonde was to help Illidan defeat tichondrius, you know the dreadlord) and just hope the legion lost? Man the jailer is a strategic mastermind beyond mortal comprehension.

[Feanoro]

On topic and ignoring the shill:

Yes, the current retcons mean the undead in WC3 is petty infighting that damn near allows the Legion to win, and screw the Jailer out of getting Azeroth. See, you're not supposed to actually think things through or pay attention to everything, just the latest dramatic pronouncements, explosions, and shiny objects.

Infracted.

[Xilurm]

What retcons, my child?

Nothing was retconned. It was expanded.

The Dreadlords still were intelligent agents of the Burning Legion, were they not?
The two are not mutually exclusive. They helped the Burning Legion as long as they had to. "Inflitrated" them if you will.

And yes, being a generic "commander" for a generic evil army force (as that was the BL was in WC3 back then) VS being inter-dimensional agents of the force of Death that infiltrate other cosmic forces to further the goals of their own is way more interesting. Also, they have an actual origin story now.
Especially since they already helped us take down the Burning Legion.

But let's keep complaining.

First of all, don't act so condescending when you're in argument. It makes you the only one looking like a child. I'm sorry that you feel so offended that I think the lore that you so like is utter trash, but it's my opinion.

Now, let's start from the beginning. The Dreadlords were part of the legion that spread chaos, which in turn drove Sargeras insane because he saw that chaos and realized it's better to start from the beginning and wipe everything out.

Now, that's part of the old lore.

In the new lore, the Dreadlords showed Sargeras the threat of the Void and the Void Lords and that's why he started the Burning Legion.

Thanks to Danuser saying that "the Chronicles are only written from the Titan's point of view", which means it might or might not be what happened, we have open ended lore that replaced established lore. That's a retcon. And the fact that the new lore is open ended, makes it even worse.

Since everything that follows Chronicles takes from that new lore, means that it's all part of this retcon.

Also what you said, "VS being inter-dimensional agents of the force of Death that infiltrate other cosmic forces to further the goals of their own is way more interesting."

This force of Death, which is the Jailer, has ZERO lore behind him. They did away with beings that had background lore written all the way back in the 00s and now we got some dude that we've heard nothing about, in an MMO that can't possibly write characters to save itself, and you're telling me thats interesting?

The Lich King was interesting because he had decent lore to back him up, and so were so many of the other villains, especially someone like Azshara for example which they got "rid off" in a patch!

I went into Shadowlands open minded, I really did. I was excited to play it. My first thoughts when I saw the Jailer for the first time was, "why does he just sound like another meathead saying "mOrTalS". It's so cheap and he has nothing to back him up."

If they had made a game about him where they built him up I'd be all for it. But they just don't care. They really don't. They don't care because they know they can get away with any lore they write. So they aren't even trying.

[Magical Mudcrab]

We also know that the Burning Legion did assault Bastion and Maldraxxus beat their asses back.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't recall any mentions of the Burning Legion in Bastion. The only force I'm aware of is Void, which was dealt with by the Kyrians. Hell, I don't know of any mention of the Burning Legion for the Necrolords either, with the exception of the cinematic which suggests Draka infiltrated a demon-occupied area at one point, for which we have received no clarifications.

[Valdhammer]

I had always viewed World of Warcraft as a sequel of sorts to WC3, so I was invested in the lore and the story until WotLK. After that, I wasn’t as interested but whatever interest I still had was extinguished by horrible writing and nonsensical plot lines and lore.

I couldn’t even begin to explain what Shadowlands is about. I think they need to go back to the basics. Orcs vs. Humans level basic.

[Xilurm]

I had always viewed World of Warcraft as a sequel of sorts to WC3, so I was invested in the lore and the story until WotLK. After that, I wasn’t as interested but whatever interest I still had was extinguished by horrible writing and nonsensical plot lines and lore.

I couldn’t even begin to explain what Shadowlands is about. I think they need to go back to the basics. Orcs vs. Humans level basic.

That's what BFA was trying to be. Except they changed their mind midway.

[Nnyco]

Why are people finding this so hard to grasp?

The Dreadlords are infiltrators.
They didn't "fight" Arthas and whatnot because they wanted to win.
They had the whole Burning Legion and Kil'jaeden to play with.

Look at the book of inflitration or what it's called.
It perfectly explains that the Dreadlords are willing to go as far as possible to "prove" their loyalty.
While temporarily this MIGHT mean that they have to help their enemies they have long-term goals.

This is the whole point of this.
It's not even a retcon. Things happened exactly the same in the past.
Just now we have an additional layer as to why or how.

Ye but that doesnt allow OP to make a snarky thread how everything about wow now sucks.

[Mysterymask]

In WC3 you also have Varimathras being afraid to die and begged Sylvanas to join her, yet in Legion we find out that demons return to the Twisting Nether after dying like his brothers did. So why would Varimathras have been that afraid then? Better not to think about such things and pretend that each game and expansion is just in an universe of its own. I also have to forget that the latest seasons of Game of Thrones happened for me to enjoy the older seasons. As far as I'm aware the show died with Tywin Lannister.

.....this was literally shown to be an act waaaaaaaay back in Vanilla...you know the dreadlord he killed to show loyalty ended up as the guy running the Scarlet Crusade...
Or the entirety of Wrath where the Wrathgate showed us Varminthas true colors and oh snap Mal'Ganis didn't die....

Like shit the writing was on the fucking wall of they were more than they seemed but y'all just refused to see it

[Aucald]

This thread needs to settle down - make your points civilly and succinctly, drop the infighting and the snarky rejoinders.

[Xilurm]

Like shit the writing was on the fucking wall of they were more than they seemed but y'all just refused to see it

That would imply that this was all planned from all the way back then which is impossible.

[UnspeakableHastur]

The Danuser era is non canon. What do you mean?

[Garymorilix]

What did the jailer's forces do that contributed to the legion's destruction? Get their pretend home planet blown up by illidan?

They didn't have a back up plan? Steve we aren't even at backup plan yet.
What was their primary plan? Unironically help the legion (except arthas and LK who's only contribution to the war after summoning Archimonde was to help Illidan defeat tichondrius, you know the dreadlord) and just hope the legion lost? Man the jailer is a strategic mastermind beyond mortal comprehension.

Ermh, they literally implanted the Lich King as a mean to avoid another total Legion invasion?
Also Illidan?

[Xilurm]

Ermh, they literally implanted the Lich King as a mean to avoid another total Legion invasion?
Also Illidan?

Do you remember when it was Kil'Jaeden that implanted the Lich King on the Frozen Throne? As a means to allow for another total Legion invasion?

[Garymorilix]

First of all, don't act so condescending when you're in argument. It makes you the only one looking like a child. I'm sorry that you feel so offended that I think the lore that you so like is utter trash, but it's my opinion.

Now, let's start from the beginning. The Dreadlords were part of the legion that spread chaos, which in turn drove Sargeras insane because he saw that chaos and realized it's better to start from the beginning and wipe everything out.

Now, that's part of the old lore.

In the new lore, the Dreadlords showed Sargeras the threat of the Void and the Void Lords and that's why he started the Burning Legion.

Thanks to Danuser saying that "the Chronicles are only written from the Titan's point of view", which means it might or might not be what happened, we have open ended lore that replaced established lore. That's a retcon. And the fact that the new lore is open ended, makes it even worse.

Since everything that follows Chronicles takes from that new lore, means that it's all part of this retcon.

Also what you said, "VS being inter-dimensional agents of the force of Death that infiltrate other cosmic forces to further the goals of their own is way more interesting."

This force of Death, which is the Jailer, has ZERO lore behind him. They did away with beings that had background lore written all the way back in the 00s and now we got some dude that we've heard nothing about, in an MMO that can't possibly write characters to save itself, and you're telling me thats interesting?

The Lich King was interesting because he had decent lore to back him up, and so were so many of the other villains, especially someone like Azshara for example which they got "rid off" in a patch!

I went into Shadowlands open minded, I really did. I was excited to play it. My first thoughts when I saw the Jailer for the first time was, "why does he just sound like another meathead saying "mOrTalS". It's so cheap and he has nothing to back him up."

If they had made a game about him where they built him up I'd be all for it. But they just don't care. They really don't. They don't care because they know they can get away with any lore they write. So they aren't even trying.

Okay, so is Sargeras not a titan now or what?

What do you mean Death has zero lore behind it? Where have you been in the past half a year?
The whole point of this expansion is to flesh out the lore behind Death even more.
Look at the Broker diary pages now. It just gets more in-depth with every patch.

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge anything new because of some made-up pride for 20 y old lore does not mean that you are right in anything.

[Razion]

No. The Lich King, all of them, rebelled. None of the Lich Kings were in service to The Jailer at all.

[Garymorilix]

Do you remember when it was Kil'Jaeden that implanted the Lich King on the Frozen Throne? As a means to allow for another total Legion invasion?

He did still, which was expanded upon.

Kil'jaeden still did that but he did not know that the Dreadlords were fucking with him. Cuz the Dreadlords gave him the armor and frostmourne and told him to do it.

Are you like, refusing to follow the actual lore you're trying to complain about?