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  1. #441
    I'm struggling to see the thought process of the people saying that blizz hired the best people for them job, while simultaneously losing market share on their main products, AND producing a culture where executives were harassing women and minorities so much that the state government had to step in.

    Like all of these things cannot be true, even if Blizz hadn't been losing market share and the forums connected to or about their games weren't full to the brim of people despising their games, maybe, just maybe, if your company has a bunch of sexual assault/harassment it's definitely not a good place with good hiring practices.

    Definitely fun times for folks to argue that gaming - that's been rife with sexual harassment at every studio - is somehow very very good at picking the right people, and that people talking about diversity and workplace policies are just selfish wokies that just want to whine.

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    Then true diversity doesn't involve gender and diversity targets or quotas either as these targets and quotas necessarily create inequality of opportunity.
    Not quite. It's a bit more complicated then that. It's not a simple as say, "40% of the applicants are female so about 40% of those hired would expected to be female" but you would calculate a weighted expectation depending on what type of jobs you're hiring for, what the demographics of those applying for those jobs are and possibly take other factors into consideration such as work experience of the applicants by demographic. Of course, creating an actual quota isn't acceptable but you can estimate an expectation and if that expectation isn't met, there's possibly some issues in that hiring process.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    Is there some logical reason why that would be the case? It's possible the applicants weren't a very diverse group or all of the top tier choices weren't very diverse but that indicates a problem with outreach efforts. Why are only white guys applying? That business would likely be missing out on some top tier talent if for some reason it's only white guys applying.

    Unless for some reason you think white males are just better?
    Is there some logical reason why it couldn't be the case? The chances aren't big, but it is possible.

    Why should anyone ask themselves why only white guys are applying? You're trying to hire people that want to work and if someone doesn't want to have a specific job, they won't apply.

    There's no reason to think that, if only white people apply for a job, that a lot of talent is being missed out on.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    There's mountains of evidence that diversity, and more importantly inclusion, factually creates a better work environment. Not just in terms of the employees feeling more included and safe but literally leads to an increase in productive work.
    Examples please?

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimin View Post
    So long that "promoting" is merely giving them the chance, not the seat by default.
    "too many people that their dreams can't be met because mom and dad were wrong skin color" applies to everyone, white people included.
    lmao this guy thinks white people somehow miss opportunities for being white. Yeah okay my guy

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    Is there some logical reason why that would be the case?
    Maybe they are the group who are the most interested in the subject matter (whatever it is)?
    Just like some other group might be better at something they are more interested in.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by BreakerOfWills View Post
    I'm struggling to see the thought process of the people saying that blizz hired the best people for them job, while simultaneously losing market share on their main products, AND producing a culture where executives were harassing women and minorities so much that the state government had to step in.
    If you actually look back on things, you'll see that most of these iconic franchises and their best installments were created by an all-male and all-white team of dudes who were, without any negative connotation, nerds for tabletop RPG games and games in general.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    I personally am not surprised that a white dude in his fourties and fifties, who has spent his entire life playing tabletop games, MMOs and videogames in general, gets promoted over Becky that was hired to fill a mandated hiring quota. This pertains to the game development department first and foremost.
    Implying someone got their job to meet a quota is extremely offensive and shows how little you know about this topic.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Skill, expertise, working experience and positive human characteristics(ie cooperability, will to continously improve, will to impart knowledge and expertise upon others, a sense of responsibility) matter more than all elements of diversity combined. Having 9 female nurses that are all black, who have working experience and who are good with patients, is better than having 3 white, 3 black and 3 asian nurses, with half of them being inexperienced and the experienced half having bad behavioural patterns.
    I'm a white male that is a supervisor for my corporation that started diversity hires. I'm not scared because my work ethic and abilities speak for themselves. If you are scared minorities are going to take a job away from you, maybe put in the same amount that they have to to even have a base level job.

    Nepotism is rampant in every large organization and these policies break that up. Instead of people being groomed for positions they arent remotely qualified for because they are white men and "hey I'm a white man near retirement and want my legacy to continue," you see new blood and thus new ideas infused into the corporation which does make it stronger.

    Assuming you are the most qualified for a job is dangerous, especially in business where there are always hungerier sharks constantly swinming about is foolish. To see the reality you need to acknowledge and appreciate your privileges and help others that don't have that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Except it would only be "textbook" confirmation bias if I fully believed that a third spec was actually coming.

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    Being more diverse leads to those in the minority groups feeling more included, more psychological safe, more empowered.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    I would be more inclined to read it if the person didn't start with a strawman in the first damn sentence. This isn't the first time this has happened in this thread. It's pointless to engage a person like that.
    Boohoo, I made an assumption about where you're from. For someone who lobs insults at people, you sure are sensitive.

    Go read my reply. It'll answer your question. It'll help you understand what diversity is. Or don't. I don't care.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoculate View Post
    I'm a white male that is a supervisor for my corporation that started diversity hires. I'm not scared because my work ethic and abilities speak for themselves. If you are scared minorities are going to take a job away from you, maybe put in the same amount that they have to to even have a base level job.
    You shouldn't be scared if you have the qualities indeed. The work ethic matters the most, as does performance, positive workplace stances, expertise and so on. I don't know why you deemed it necessary to bring in the "if you are scared minorities are going to take a job away from you" because that's not a position I share.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    You have to take into account that those women and minorities could potentially and largely be using their status of "victimized category" to jumpstart themselves. Not all, but many are potentially doing exactly this. I don't think that some employees having to listen to dick jokes or someone bringing a sex toy to a trip means there's a systematic problem with opportunity at Blizzard.

    I've never, ever met a woman that has done the same work as I have and gotten paid less. In fact, they are usually getting priviledged treatment at the workplace, by getting a more suitable working environment, time off with the kids and easier sick leaves with the head of department's approval and more.

    I'm not saying that a black guy or whatever can't be good at game development. What I'm saying is that gaming, stereotypically, is a white, dadbod dude's hobby from the last century and these people happened to be founding gaming companies all over the place when nobody cared about games except them. Eminem succeeded in hip hop, but that doesn't mean that black people aren't largely better at hip hop than white people. It's a cultural thing, it impacts exposure to certain hobbies and trends from early on in life and as a result has a lot of impact on the person's future interests and skillsets.
    It's absolutely disgusting that you believe "many are potentially doing this". This kind of rhetoric minimizes the accomplishments of those groups of people who persevered through the existing barriers. You don't think men making jokes about raping women wouldn't make women uncomfortable? What the fuck is wrong with you? You downplay this as "dick jokes" but the lawsuit indicates it's far worse than that.

    I highly advise you educate yourself more on unconscious bias, anecdotal evidence, systemic issues and how they have a large scale impact before you continue giving your opinion on this matter at all.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    Not quite. It's a bit more complicated then that. It's not a simple as say, "40% of the applicants are female so about 40% of those hired would expected to be female" but you would calculate a weighted expectation depending on what type of jobs you're hiring for, what the demographics of those applying for those jobs are and possibly take other factors into consideration such as work experience of the applicants by demographic. Of course, creating an actual quota isn't acceptable but you can estimate an expectation and if that expectation isn't met, there's possibly some issues in that hiring process.
    Oh targets based on share of applicants would be profoundly elegant to what's actually happening, which is flat targets regardless of who applies. When companies ignore what goes into the talent pipeline and only focus on what comes out then there's no way people get hired on merit alone.

    EDIT: Sorry for quoting you in two separate posts, I thought it would be fast enough for the auto-merge but this thread is going too fast.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Vowrawn View Post
    It is. Men work vastly more paid overtime, on average, than women do, even for the same jobs. That is why the aggregate on men's wage is around $0.25 higher on average. If you eliminated that, then those numbers would be utterly equal. The first thing you shouldn't jump to is "they are just bigoted against wahmen", it's what could offset the balance, which in this case is things like "paid overtime" or just working more hours on average.
    Fascinating. Just like clockwork.

    I find it quite funny the cognitive dissonance. Being able explain the wage gap through choice and pre-pre depositions but when it comes to unequal outcomes for men? Nope, can't be.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    Implying someone got their job to meet a quota is extremely offensive and shows how little you know about this topic.
    "We work to create a more inclusive and diverse workplace" comes with quotas by default.
    If two equally qualified people apply for a job and there is a quota to be filled, the one meeting the requirements of the quota will get the job.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    While I agree completely with you, there's a problem with people on those movements that say they want equality, but in the end they just want retaliation For example some messages in the like of "my ancestry was oppresed, I want a compensation". Man, what you want from me? I'm not responsible that some rich white dudes 200 years ago bough black slaves.

    The same thing goes by some people putting equality of opportunity on par with equality of results. That's why quotas are bad, you're putting someone ahead of others for some random trait, and that could create the opposite intent: it could drive people to think that the one ahead is there because of the trait instead of their worth.
    If there is no equality of results, why is that? Either you believe one group is better than the other or you must accept there is an inequity in the process leading up to those results. Which is it?

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    Implying someone got their job to meet a quota is extremely offensive and shows how little you know about this topic.
    Let's just assume for a second that people do get a job to meet quotas. If that's the case, let's make recruitment more transparent.

    So that everyone gets EQUAL opportunity. So let's use his example. If the white dude who plays table top games gets a transparent answer as to why Becky got it, and it's because she's damn fucking good at the job, he should surely be happy then. He can't then cry about quotas.

  19. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    They are not at all always more qualified, as their alleged victims are not at all always tell truth in their stories. I am sure that there was nepotism at Blizzard and a lot of people got mistreated over the years. But to blame ALL white men there as supremacists and sex predators and ALL women as innocent angels is total bullshit. But sadly this is the case as we speak.
    Not blaming all white man.

    I am saying that a company that has constantly treated women badly, paid them less and housed sexual predators suddenly promoting and hiring people fairly is laughably unlikely.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  20. #460
    https://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/...litigator.aspx

    For those not aware, Bobby got some skeletons...is he going to fire himself?

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