Torghast Gems ruined it.

[Nnyco]

what more knowledge - L10 gives you 88 on 4 stars and takes much more tiem then L9 due to scaling - which makes runign L9 much more efficient per hour . so i assume L11 gives you 100 and also takes so much mre time because not everyone is decked out in mythic raid gear like you are.

actually stealth runign L10 seems most time efficient to me as bosses melt down. doubt they would melt down too on L11 with 230 itlv which would make it less efficient per hour.

its just garbage gating system to ensure people are slowed down and bump played metrics in thorgast.

As i said before, it does not matter. Its a small progress system for torghast, you dont NEED it to clear it. People were clearing l12 5star the moment it was available, yet here you are hard farming it, blaming the system for your failed runs, all while others do two runs a week and are capped while you farm 20+ torghasts. lul

[cparle87]

I don't massively like the score but the lack of clarity is more my issue. I don't understand the empowerment and most of what I know for bonuses is due to Wowhead telling me. Also the timing, I don't have a clue what my speed should be?

Thanatothobia is pretty much a death if you get dropped while solo, you won't get out of the stun. Coldheart last week with it was horrific, for all my characters, the other wing was easily 4 Gems/Stars/things.

I like the fact it's 5 floors instead of 6, but it still feels like a chore that needs to be done. Also all of my Characters are behind on Knowledge cap so I kinda want to do some lower level ones to get knowledge so that I can do 12s easier. Meh...

When you finish a floor it'll tell you how long you took. Mouse over that time and it'll tell you the "par" time expected for that floor based on its size and composition. Meeting that time gets you full points for time, falling behind slowly reduces that bonus.

[Crushima]

Tried running a layer 9 Skodus halls and accidentally pizzad when I should have french fried and died. The group disbanded and I was called out. This whole 5 gems bullcrap has seriously put a sour taste in my mouth in terms of the community as a whole.

Stick to lower layers if you don't or can't complete the mechanics of higher layers.

You wouldn't sign yourself up for the highest league of a sporting event, when your a beginner, would you?

[kamuimac]

Stick to lower layers if you don't or can't complete the mechanics of higher layers.

You wouldn't sign yourself up for the highest league of a sporting event, when your a beginner, would you?

accrding to this forums you should be doing L12 with 190 itlv or you are super ultra bad

[jazen]

i'm just waiting until the loudest among us complain enough for Blizz to make it easier. I just don't have the time to spend when I'm still 264 contributions away from Junkyard.

[Crushima]

accrding to this forums you should be doing L12 with 190 itlv or you are super ultra bad

? People are free to do as they like. However, it's pathetic to whine and cry when you get kicked for not being capable of doing a particular layer, whether that's due to skill, will, PC hardware, internet.

Do you complain publically when someone won't be your friend, or when the person you're attracted to rebuffs you?

[rhorle]

what more knowledge - L10 gives you 88 on 4 stars and takes much more tiem then L9 due to scaling - which makes runign L9 much more efficient per hour . so i assume L11 gives you 100 and also takes so much mre time because not everyone is decked out in mythic raid gear like you are.

And 5 star layer 9 gives 90 knowledge (with an extra 10 when clearing the vault). Which is easy to get and remember you already said that it isn't hard so why are you not getting 5 star layer 9? It isn't a garbage system. You just hate the game but still insist on coming back and playing it.

[Alroxas]

It isn't a garbage system. You just hate the game but still insist on coming back and playing it.

Well first, some folks think it's a garbage system because the scoring system isn't very clear. Sure we can get up to 100 points based on completion, up to 50 points based on timing. However, how much time it takes per floor isn't known until after you clear the floor.

Additional scoring bonuses (i.e. Killing a broker, killing 2 elites within 10 seconds of each other, kill floor 5 boss in under 20s) are not known ahead of time without a write-up like the one found on wowhead.


Next, the larger issue is that in order to continue to upgrade legendaries, players are penalized if they don't run Torghast wings each week (to the tune of 360 soul cinders). Regardless of the question of whether ilv 262 legendaries are required, the problem still exists that if you want those high ilv upgrades in a shorter time span (3.5 weeks) then you must run Torghast wings.

It would be drastically different if players could get soul cinders from ANY activity in the game. For instance, in late Legion, you could get Wakening Essences from any number activities which allowed players not only to buy legendaries but also upgrade them.

In a future 9.X.5 patch, bringing soul cinders as rewards to WQs, End of Dungeon chests, raid bosses would greatly give players more options on how to pursue legendaries upgrades/acquisition.


Alternatively, maybe Torghast (excluding Vaults) could actually drop some form of loot would be good. From actual gear to either stygia embers to catalog research or anything really to help being more rewarding that just a source of soul ash/cinders.

[Bee76]

Semi related;

Still, its a vast improvement over 9.0 Torghast, esp the auto-loot Tower Knowledge power makes it soo much more enjoyable alone.

The only way to improve Torghast over 2/10 would be a real challenge, real and useful rewards for that challenge and less chore.
Yes it is better than that 9.0 Torghast, but still way to unrewarding and boring to keep people like me playing after the legendaries are build.

[Relapses]

Well first, some folks think it's a garbage system because the scoring system isn't very clear. Sure we can get up to 100 points based on completion, up to 50 points based on timing. However, how much time it takes per floor isn't known until after you clear the floor.

Additional scoring bonuses (i.e. Killing a broker, killing 2 elites within 10 seconds of each other, kill floor 5 boss in under 20s) are not known ahead of time without a write-up like the one found on wowhead.


Next, the larger issue is that in order to continue to upgrade legendaries, players are penalized if they don't run Torghast wings each week (to the tune of 360 soul cinders). Regardless of the question of whether ilv 262 legendaries are required, the problem still exists that if you want those high ilv upgrades in a shorter time span (3.5 weeks) then you must run Torghast wings.

It would be drastically different if players could get soul cinders from ANY activity in the game. For instance, in late Legion, you could get Wakening Essences from any number activities which allowed players not only to buy legendaries but also upgrade them.

In a future 9.X.5 patch, bringing soul cinders as rewards to WQs, End of Dungeon chests, raid bosses would greatly give players more options on how to pursue legendaries upgrades/acquisition.


Alternatively, maybe Torghast (excluding Vaults) could actually drop some form of loot would be good. From actual gear to either stygia embers to catalog research or anything really to help being more rewarding that just a source of soul ash/cinders.

You're somewhat conflating a timeline here. We're in 9.1 still. Wakening Essences weren't added until 7.3, so the exact system you're implying could very well come to fruition in a later patch.

I do agree, however, that the Torghast scoring system is one of the most confusing things Blizzard has ever implemented. It's not hard, per se, but it definitely is not user-friendly or even remotely intuitive.

[rhorle]

Next, the larger issue is that in order to continue to upgrade legendaries, players are penalized if they don't run Torghast wings each week (to the tune of 360 soul cinders). Regardless of the question of whether ilv 262 legendaries are required, the problem still exists that if you want those high ilv upgrades in a shorter time span (3.5 weeks) then you must run Torghast wings.

So? You can't do things if you don't play the game. That isn't a bad design. You can get soul cinders from other sources that supplement torghast runs. But legendaries were always tied to Torghast which isn't a problem itself. It is like crying that Shadowmourne required you to do ICC or the hammer required you to do Ulduar. Soul Ash is abundant now and can be farmed if you are behind so you can easily get rank 4 if you didn't have it already.

I have 1735 soul cinders and I've done mostly layer 9. I have layer 11 unlocked but haven't done it because I care more about the vault transmog. So after a month of the patch being out people can have enough for one rank 5 or 6 legendary by doing layer 9/10, mission table, assaults, and the other miscellaneous sources of soul cinders. That isn't that bad of a gain when not maximizing it. These types of complaints always seem more like "I don't want to do X so it should come from Y that I want to do". Which can be applied to anything in the game. Why do I have to do a +15 for X gear? Why can't I just do world quests 100 times and buy it?

The scoring issue while not transparent really isn't an issue. Having to find a guide to understand things isn't that big of a deal since I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you looked at a guide for conduits, legendaries, talents, class, etc instead of figuring all of that stuff out yourself through trial and error or sims. Which is what you can do with Torghast by looking at the score break down after the run.

Maybe I'm just the odd one that ran Torghast like you were supposed to from the start. Clear everything and clear it as fast as possible with as few deaths as possible. That has always netted me 4 or 5 stars. With the talents from knowledge research it is now mostly 5 stars though I also haven't pushed into layers 11 or 12. I usually just run it for vaults on layer 9 for transmog and anima. So it is always an easy 5 star.

The thing is that the system isn't garbage. It might not be perfect but it is far from garbage. The player I quoted though has thought the game and most of its current systems are garbage. Yet still comes back to play it and then complains that it is garbage. They are addicted and can't let go despite being unhappy and hating the game.

[kamuimac]

Well first, some folks think it's a garbage system because the scoring system isn't very clear. Sure we can get up to 100 points based on completion, up to 50 points based on timing. However, how much time it takes per floor isn't known until after you clear the floor.

Additional scoring bonuses (i.e. Killing a broker, killing 2 elites within 10 seconds of each other, kill floor 5 boss in under 20s) are not known ahead of time without a write-up like the one found on wowhead.


Next, the larger issue is that in order to continue to upgrade legendaries, players are penalized if they don't run Torghast wings each week (to the tune of 360 soul cinders). Regardless of the question of whether ilv 262 legendaries are required, the problem still exists that if you want those high ilv upgrades in a shorter time span (3.5 weeks) then you must run Torghast wings.

It would be drastically different if players could get soul cinders from ANY activity in the game. For instance, in late Legion, you could get Wakening Essences from any number activities which allowed players not only to buy legendaries but also upgrade them.

In a future 9.X.5 patch, bringing soul cinders as rewards to WQs, End of Dungeon chests, raid bosses would greatly give players more options on how to pursue legendaries upgrades/acquisition.


Alternatively, maybe Torghast (excluding Vaults) could actually drop some form of loot would be good. From actual gear to either stygia embers to catalog research or anything really to help being more rewarding that just a source of soul ash/cinders.

well you getcinders also from mission table daily its small amount but its there - same i noticed those assaults in maw give 50 cinders too so theoreticaly you can eventualy get leggo without doing thorgast even once .

plus is that by then price will drop too :P

[Swnem]

Literally everything you said is wrong

Congrats lol

You can get tons of knowledge just by unlocking the different layers not running it all 20 times

Legendaries are super cheap if you have one character and a mission table. You just buy the korthite then tip

You don’t have to min/max torghast

The only thing you need to do is see a therapist

- - - Updated - - -



Eh
Remember that layer 12 is technically tuned for mythic gear

You can get vaults starting at 9 and if you just complete each floor you’ll get 150 without time bonus or empowerment bonus
You can do special challenge things like kill two elites quickly and burn final boss for the last

Does floor 9 give a chance for a 252 conduit from vaults?

[Alroxas]

So? You can't do things if you don't play the game. That isn't a bad design.

To be clear, what we're point at as bad design is Torghast as a limiting function to obtain impactful quantities of Soul Cinders. Yes the mission table offers some (around 10~20) and there are also twice a week assaults along with Tormentors of Torghast.

However, the bulk amount of soul cinders will likely come from Torghast assuming players can complete layer 12s.

But legendaries were always tied to Torghast which isn't a problem itself. It is like crying that Shadowmourne required you to do ICC or the hammer required you to do Ulduar.

Perhaps, but consider then Legion legendaries especially how RNG dependent it was to get one initially (pre 7.2 and 7.3 changes). What folks are saying (who don't like Torghast) is that the current system of upgrading Shadowlands Legendary is bad. Compared to the lessons that Blizzard devs already learned back in Legion.

So after a month of the patch being out people can have enough for one rank 5 or 6 legendary by doing layer 9/10, mission table, assaults, and the other miscellaneous sources of soul cinders. That isn't that bad of a gain when not maximizing it.

Others would tend to disagree. Currently at max soul cinders per week (both torghast wings layer 12 = 360, both assaults = 100, tormentors = 50), you're looking at 3.5 weeks of play to upgrade 1 legendary to rank 6. For classes/specs that have multiple legendaries that are good for specific content (i.e. BiS legendary for raid =/= BiS legendary for M+ =/= BiS legendary for PvP, etc) that can easily take up a lot of time.

That 3.5 weeks becomes 11 weeks if players don't do ANY torghast at all. Almost 3 months just to upgrade 1 legendary to rank 6 is not something most players want to wait for.

These types of complaints always seem more like "I don't want to do X so it should come from Y that I want to do". Which can be applied to anything in the game. Why do I have to do a +15 for X gear? Why can't I just do world quests 100 times and buy it?

Fair but systems already exist in game for that very purpose. You could get up to ilv 233 gear from the Korthia stuff (once fully upgraded and spending a lot of catalog research) or players can do M+ (and get rewards from both End of Dungeon and weekly GV) or players can do raids or players can do PvP.

Multiple systems already exist to get gear. Some are slower than others but there's also a difficulty factor which is considered as well. However, when it comes to Shadowland legendary upgrades, it's painfully slow if you omit Torghast runs.

The scoring issue while not transparent really isn't an issue.

Hard to understand systems don't make enjoyable experiences especially if you want players to repeat them over and over again. Oh look you got a 3 gem this run and did the same thing last week and got a 4 gem run. What changed? Did you go slower? Were mobs more difficult to kill? Was it an issue with the wing specific mechanic (i.e. Soulforges ticking fire damage, Coldheart's bombarding mawsworn)? Or was it "bad" anima powers?

Having to find a guide to understand things isn't that big of a deal since I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you looked at a guide for conduits, legendaries, talents, class, etc instead of figuring all of that stuff out yourself through trial and error or sims.

And yet we have a large population of WoW's player base that seems to constantly fail at game mechanics. Case in point - LFR but alas I digress.

Maybe I'm just the odd one that ran Torghast like you were supposed to from the start. Clear everything and clear it as fast as possible with as few deaths as possible. That has always netted me 4 or 5 stars. With the talents from knowledge research it is now mostly 5 stars though I also haven't pushed into layers 11 or 12. I usually just run it for vaults on layer 9 for transmog and anima. So it is always an easy 5 star.

Perhaps for you, your main can do those things but could you do the same with a fresh lv 60 that just unlocked Korthia as of today? You can't just assume that everybody has been playing since day 1 and has kept "up to date" with all the game systems. There are new players or even returning players who took a break after the long delay from launch to this first content patch of 9.1.


Oh and before we get into personal attacks (because that's how it's beginning to read), I've already unlocked vaults and currently at 4/6 for Flawless Master achievement for Torghast. So yeah, I've done Flawless runs just fine but that doesn't mean that the system is without its problems.

- - - Updated - - -

Does floor 9 give a chance for a 252 conduit from vaults?

To be clear, you get an item that upgrades your lowest conduit up 1 rank higher up to ilv 252. Similar to the conduit upgrade piece you could buy from Ve'nari back in season 1 (also note you can buy a similar upgrade item in Season 2 from the Archivist Codex once you reach tier 6 - aka exalted)

[rhorle]

Perhaps for you, your main can do those things but could you do the same with a fresh lv 60 that just unlocked Korthia as of today? You can't just assume that everybody has been playing since day 1 and has kept "up to date" with all the game systems. There are new players or even returning players who took a break after the long delay from launch to this first content patch of 9.1.

Wait. So unless a fresh character can do something it is bad? How is it that you've played a game with gear progression as a core design this long if that is truly a problem? Korthira gear allows you to catch up pretty fast. You can even upgrade it pretty quickly. The recommended item level for layer 9 is 208. It is easy to out gear it quickly if you are a returning player.

Playing your class, or knowing what is good or not, will always be a factor. But short of handing things out for free you will never be able to design around that. It is why even LFR, or normal dungeons, can wipe. You are also being dishonest. Because doing the same thing will consistently get you the same score in Torghast. It doesn't magically change. Lol.

The thing you are over looking though is that runs are not always the same. Different events, different spawns, different blessings, etc all have at play. One week you could have the blessing that allows you to attack the brokers. Next week you might not have it which will impact the score. But you can see these things at the end of the run or you can find a guide which you likely already be doing to find out how to play your class. You can still figure those things out through trial and error though by paying attention and being aware.

[Alroxas]

Wait.

Ok it seems we're talking above each other so let me be as clear as possible:

Torghast is a bad system because:

1) The 9.1 system is poorly explained in-game. For instance, there's no way to see Par time for a floor until after the floor is done. Should you speed up or can you afford to slow down? Completely unknown. Obviously if you take an hour to clear a floor, you're going to be over time but there's no indicator unlike say M+ where you can see the timer. In fact, you can see the timer before even starting. This can also apply forward to blessing/torments where players don't know what they are going to encounter until after they step in.

2) Torghast as the primary means of soul ash/cinders is too restrictive. Yes there are other activities that can give you a bit of soul cinders but they pale in comparison to running a Torghast wing. Especially at layer 12 where you're rewarded with 180 soul cinders per wing. Considering the QoL that Blizzard has put in place in the past (aka Wakening Essences in Legion), this design aspect is bad because it could have been better. Even if you consider putting a weekly cap (e.g. Tower Knowledge, Valor Points, Conquest Points, etc) the ability to put Soul Cinders as rewards from other activities would have been a more welcome response than to make Torghast the primary acquisition pathway.

3) Scoring in Torghast is unintuitive when it comes to bonus objectives that reward additional points. Remember 100% completion of a layer only gives 100 points. Finishing in/under "par" time rewards up to 50 points but Flawless requires 200 points which means some combination of achieving bonus objectives and/or using empowerment correctly.

4) Torghast (excluding vaults) doesn't have any other rewards. No XP gains, no gear drops. Beyond legendary crafting there isn't a strong appeal to doing Torghast wings. Twisting Corridors (in season 1) gave a mount usable in the Maw which was worthwhile for those willing to grind that out but in Season 2? Nothing really. For a rogue-like feature, there seems very little reward once players have achieved enough soul ash/cinders to craft all the legendaries they want/need.

[rhorle]

Torghast is a bad system because:

1) You should always run Torghast as fast as possible. You can also slow down with in reason as the par times are pretty generous for a "timed run" type of thing. You can also be over by a small amount and still get 5 gems. Torghast is all about making quick choices. Picking the powers, picking how to react, picking what to kill and what could be left. It has been that way from the start. Blessings are not really that complicated and you can always leave and come back since they will always be the same for that day. Tons of stuff is poorly explained in game. That doesn't make all of those things bad though. It just means it has room for improvement. Wowhead, wowpedia, etc all exist because things were poorly explained in-game. Using out of game resources is one of the hallmarks of being a good player. It doesn't mean a system is perfect and has no room for improvements but it is also not bad because of it.

2)It isn't that restrictive and is no more restrictive then getting the highest rated gear in the game. You get the same reward from 0 gems as you do 5 gems. So you can take 10 hours to do a layer 9 and still get your soul cinders. Like I said I haven't done any layer 11 and 12. I have enough soul cinders to craft a rank 5 or 6 legendary. It isn't as restrictive as you make it to be if you just play the game. Something isn't bad just because it could be better. That is a dumb statement because it means that every thing is bad because there is always some way to make it better. Tower knowledge has a weekly cap because the total amount increases each week. It has built in catch up mechanics.

3) Those bonus things should be part of normal play. You can still get 5 gems while taking duplicate and epic powers. The reason why you might want to learn what gives you points is so you can compensate for short comings that you know you have. Which is usually always something an out of game guide will be required for. A game doesn't have to tell you every last detail when you can find it out for yourself through trial and error.

4)Not everything needs a ton of rewards. There are new transmog even with out going to the vaults. You have the mission table followers. You can get catch up renown. Having gear or a ton of high value rewards would make you hate it even more. Because you would be forced to keep doing something you don't like. If you think that soul cinders are so valuable that they should be given out to you by others means then why do you need another valuable reward attached? That still doesn't make the system bad or garbage though. An example of it being bad because of the rewards is LFR. Kothira gives you an easy option to get gear higher then you will gain from LFR. Which means getting domination sockets, a important patch feature, a technical downgrade.

[KaPe]

One complaint I'd have about scoring is "bonus points for not having epic powers". It's not so much about making the run harder (I barely use those anyway), but about being "punished" for using potentially fun stuff. Especially if it's something you rarely see and would like to try out this time, but it might mean you won't get 5 stars at the end.
Also, traps on broker levels. Fuck. That. 10 points gone because some random shit is hidden right next to vendor and clips you on otherwise perfect run.

[Relapses]

One complaint I'd have about scoring is "bonus points for not having epic powers". It's not so much about making the run harder (I barely use those anyway), but about being "punished" for using potentially fun stuff. Especially if it's something you rarely see and would like to try out this time, but it might mean you won't get 5 stars at the end.
Also, traps on broker levels. Fuck. That. 10 points gone because some random shit is hidden right next to vendor and clips you on otherwise perfect run.

It's very reminiscent of Horrific Visions, imo. The fact that there's even a talent tree to fill out to make it easier further enforces that similarity. I've still managed to 5-star when taking Epic powers, though. You just have to make the score up elsewhere which...isn't exactly intuitive either but hopefully will be something Blizzard iterates on in 9.1.5 (if that happens).

[AboikoS]

The only difficulty really is the wings and what torment you get

I got 2 stars on one wing this week and then got 5 on the other…and then a pet


I also think people are forgetting that the higher layers are technically tuned for heroic gear

Its rng in general, if you're melee and one of the torments are doom conduits, best would be to leave and come back later when torments reset. I mean, i guess it also depends on gear but running layer 12 as 220 warr with conduits + reflective shield and that one when they get damage boost at lower hp...i couldnt stop raging at the game lol. It was impossible. Also depends what anima powers u get etc.