Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Daymanmb]

So people don't do what you keep bringing up as a counter to something people actually do. People do buy tokens with out buying boosts. Which means the token can't be pay to win if it isn't always pay to win. Notice how you've gone from "It is pay to win" to "It is majority pay to win". That is the problem when people use subjective reasoning for pay to win definitions. You have to compromise instead of just admitting that it isn't pay to win.

If the system allows for non pay to win things then it is not by default pay to win. It can't be both, this isn't Schrodinger's token.

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit, it just so happens that a lot of people spend the gold that they bought with real money on buying advantages.

[Usernameforforums]

Not if you didnt spend real money... if you earned the gold, you didnt pay real money for the advantage over those who didnt spend real money.

How many people are top performers that actually bought gold to boost for gear? Maybe 1% of the 90 percentile? Maybe 5% of the 75 percentile? Most of these people are grey parsers. They aint winning shit.

[Daymanmb]

How many people are top performers that actually bought gold to boost for gear? Maybe 1% of the 90 percentile? Maybe 5% of the 75 percentile? Most of these people are grey parsers. They aint winning shit.

Theyre buying advantages.

[saintminya]

Youre upset your source contradicts your position? I dont know what you want from me... maybe actually read the source before you link it next time lol.

It didn't contradict me, you just applied your loose and twisted logic to the definitions provided. I'll go ahead share this well-written source again and pluck some unedited highlights from it. https://alternateimage.net/gaming/20...o-win-defined/

The author of this article took care to categorise several pay-to-win methods. These are for Power, Advantages, Convenience, and Cosmetics. Only two of these apply to WoW however.

Under the category of Paid Advantages we find this relevant statement: "Right now, in World of Warcraft, you could go buy a max level character for real money in their cash shop… but I hesitate to call that gaining an advantage in power, because, for most, the game doesn’t really start until max level and all relevant power gains occur after that point."

Under the category of Cosmetics it references the in-game shop, where the only exclusive content available for purchase are vanity items such as pets and mounts. Those of course offer no gameplay advantage.

The author then goes on to note how in games like WoW different players have different goals and thus may have unique ideas regarding winning. For raiders it would be clearing the highest difficulty possible, or the highest difficulty you feel like pushing for. For those pushing Mythic+ it would be beating higher keys and setting better times. PVP would be rankings. Then theres mount/pet/toy/etc collectors, who are the only group the shop provides an advantage for.

The other page I linked was for user-submitted definitions on urban dictionary: https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...erm=pay-to-win
Some of these are clearly jokes, while the ones with actual thought put into them align with common definitions that pop up with a simple search.

An example: "Pay to win means, for $$$ you can by power ups which are not available in game any other way. If these items can not be obtained in anyway that does not involve money, and they are essential to winning, then the game is pay-to-win."

Or this one: "Pay To Win AKA P2W. when you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."

[Daymanmb]

If the system allows for non pay to win things then it is not by default pay to win. It can't be both, this isn't Schrodinger's token.

Youve made the point that you believe buying a lvl boost is p2w, why do you believe that?

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Or this one: "Pay To Win AKA P2W. when you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."

Right, go start 2 new characters. On the first character, level yourself and go earn Cutting Edge. Then, on the second character, buy a lvl boost and tokens and buy carries to get Cutting Edge. Let me know which one takes longer lol... Youre not worth my energy anymore.

Also, Im sure the esteemed author @alternateimage.net is beyond reproach lmao

[crusadernero]

So people don't do what you keep bringing up as a counter to something people actually do. People do buy tokens with out buying boosts. Which means the token can't be pay to win if it isn't always pay to win. Notice how you've gone from "It is pay to win" to "It is majority pay to win". That is the problem when people use subjective reasoning for pay to win definitions. You have to compromise instead of just admitting that it isn't pay to win.

If the system allows for non pay to win things then it is not by default pay to win. It can't be both, this isn't Schrodinger's token.

You never replied to my boost character example. You said boosting a character to lvl 50 is p2w, but buying token for gold to get boosted, is not.

I can boost a character and never play him again. I can boost a character and have him as a bank character. I can boost a character and do nothing but RP with him in goldshire. I can boost a character and only run lower lvl dungeons/raids. I can boost a character only to do a bit of pet battles.

Your argument about "we dont know what people do with bought gold from token" is just the same as I use with a boosted character. You dont know what every boosted character is doing. You might have an idea or notion of it, and you are probably right that most boosted characters are lvld to max. But you dont know that for sure, you just take it for granted cause it makes sense.

Just as it makes perfect sense that the token facilitates and encourage people to buy gold so they can buy boosts & carries from a select few players in the game. Before the token it wasnt like the majority of the playerbase ran around with 150k+ gold farmed every week for this stuff. Most players just play the game, most players dont metaslave out goldfarming. Just as most people treat the game for what it is - a game. While not tryharding everything.

tbh it would be better if Blizzard just sold boosts & carries directly on the store, atleast they would be honest about it then. I cant fathom why anyone would defend the token, at all. The only reason to defend it would be if they are the ones doing the boosts and carries. To them its a perfect setup. For everyone else? A big kick in the balls to everything that a MMORPG is supposed to be.

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It didn't contradict me, you just applied your loose and twisted logic to the definitions provided. I'll go ahead share this well-written source again and pluck some unedited highlights from it. https://alternateimage.net/gaming/20...o-win-defined/

The author of this article took care to categorise several pay-to-win methods. These are for Power, Advantages, Convenience, and Cosmetics. Only two of these apply to WoW however.

Under the category of Paid Advantages we find this relevant statement: "Right now, in World of Warcraft, you could go buy a max level character for real money in their cash shop… but I hesitate to call that gaining an advantage in power, because, for most, the game doesn’t really start until max level and all relevant power gains occur after that point."

Under the category of Cosmetics it references the in-game shop, where the only exclusive content available for purchase are vanity items such as pets and mounts. Those of course offer no gameplay advantage.

The author then goes on to note how in games like WoW different players have different goals and thus may have unique ideas regarding winning. For raiders it would be clearing the highest difficulty possible, or the highest difficulty you feel like pushing for. For those pushing Mythic+ it would be beating higher keys and setting better times. PVP would be rankings. Then theres mount/pet/toy/etc collectors, who are the only group the shop provides an advantage for.

The other page I linked was for user-submitted definitions on urban dictionary: https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...erm=pay-to-win
Some of these are clearly jokes, while the ones with actual thought put into them align with common definitions that pop up with a simple search.

An example: "Pay to win means, for $$$ you can by power ups which are not available in game any other way. If these items can not be obtained in anyway that does not involve money, and they are essential to winning, then the game is pay-to-win."

Or this one: "Pay To Win AKA P2W. when you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."

Can I(we) right now boost a character, lvl him to 60, buy token(s) and obtain AOTC, gear, achivs, mounts in a very short time?

Can I(we) drop hours of kortia runs, m+ runs, pug raid runs, proffesion runs in mere seconds when buying/selling token?

Can I(we) obtain certain achivments in a couple of hours after reaching 60 in scrub gear?

[rhorle]

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit, it just so happens that a lot of people spend the gold that they bought with real money on buying advantages.

That isn't how it work though. It has to always be pay to win, not just some of the time. Majority doesn't mean anything at all. Just because majority spends gold on carries doesn't mean gold is pay to win. It doesn't mean the token is pay to win. Gold is still gold. Token is still a micro transaction. The real money is for gold, not the win. That win is a secondary transaction that happens at a later date.

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You never replied to my boost character example. You said boosting a character to lvl 50 is p2w, but buying token for gold to get boosted, is not.

I already answered that. It doesn't matter if you play the character again or not. You still directly paid for a gain of power. The token is not directly paying for power. It directly pays for gold. Gold can be used for tons of things in-game. A level boost can only be used to boost a character. You keep missing the key differences with things and are even now ignoring it outright to claim it was never addressed. That is the problem here. You see only what you want to see.

[Daymanmb]

That isn't how it work though. It has to always be pay to win, not just some of the time. Majority doesn't mean anything at all. Just because majority spends gold on carries doesn't mean gold is pay to win. It doesn't mean the token is pay to win. Gold is still gold. Token is still a micro transaction. The real money is for gold, not the win. That win is a secondary transaction that happens at a later date.

I literally just said:

Majority means shit

How do you then go one to argue like I didnt just say that? Jesus christ...

That is the problem here. You see only what you want to see.

How ironic...

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You still directly paid for a gain of power. The token is not directly paying for power.

Sure, theres a difference, but in both cases power is paid for with real money, directly or indirectly...

[crusadernero]

That isn't how it work though. It has to always be pay to win, not just some of the time. Majority doesn't mean anything at all. Just because majority spends gold on carries doesn't mean gold is pay to win. It doesn't mean the token is pay to win. Gold is still gold. Token is still a micro transaction. The real money is for gold, not the win. That win is a secondary transaction that happens at a later date.

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I already answered that. It doesn't matter if you play the character again or not. You still directly paid for a gain of power. The token is not directly paying for power. It directly pays for gold. Gold can be used for tons of things in-game. A level boost can only be used to boost a character. You keep missing the key differences with things and are even now ignoring it outright to claim it was never addressed. That is the problem here. You see only what you want to see.

No, you dont gain any power from a boosted character. You gain levels and save time, just as you do with buying gold to buy boosts and carries. The difference is that boosts and carries at max lvl directly gives you gear, titles, mounts & achivments that contribute to actual player power. A boosted character gotta level 10 lvls before being relevant at all. A boosted character is worthless and means nothing and cant do anything worthwhile except start leveling.

The overall notion in wow is that leveling is dogshit useless and contributes nothing, its only a time waste. So, the boost for money is there.

Buying/Selling tokens directly gives you the option of gaining player power(gear) and achivs(that you often gotta get to access content with others). It directly gives you player power, that directly makes you stronger in a quicker time than others. At the very least, a boosted character gotta lvl 10 lvls before being relevant at all. Meaning, actually play the game.

Boosts & carries at max level dictates staying in the corner during a raid boss while watching netflix. When boss is dead you collect strong gear.

[Raelbo]

I think you disagree with people that dont see thing the way you want.

This is not about what I want, although I suspect for people like you it is. It's about disagreeing with the argument you have put together, and recognising the fundamental flaws in what you are saying.

wow is about end game and conquering the hardest difficulty. this use to mean being with equally skilled players to do that. Winning is also about getting the gear to do great dps and do well in arena. Guess what? All this can actually be bought with cash.

No it can't. You can buy gold, from other players for cash. Despite some seeming similarities with p2w, this is actually something entirely different that utterly fails to meet the definition of p2w on multiple levels, including:

1) You don't acquire the gold from the game. You acquire it from other players
2) Tokens are neither necessary nor sufficient to push you into the upper echelons of game progress

So I am afraid I completely disagree with you. wow is pay2win and dont bother answering we will never see eye to eye on this subject.

I will keep answering for as long as you keep replying with critically flawed nonsense that shows zero insight or understanding of the topic at hand. Go research what p2w actually is. Apply critical thinking to the topic. Then come back and thank me for enlightening you.

[Alithia]

Buy two wow tokens for $40

Sell tokens for 400,000 gold

Buy mythic 252 ilvl boots for 400,000 gold

Yes, it is P2W at this point.

Buy 2 tokens which sell for 600k on my server. Buy a 1800 boost in 3vs3. Now you can get all 252 PvP gear on your own!

[Daymanmb]

The overall notion in wow is that leveling is dogshit useless and contributes nothing, its only a time waste. So, the boost for money is there.

Can boosts not be advantageous on more than one front? It does save time, but isnt also buying power?

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No it can't. You can buy gold, from other players for cash.

The nuance of who the gold comes from is a red herring. The point is, you buy gold with real money and use that gold to procure advantages via carries.

[Rikkuu]

This is not about what I want, although I suspect for people like you it is. It's about disagreeing with the argument you have put together, and recognising the fundamental flaws in what you are saying.



No it can't. You can buy gold, from other players for cash. Despite some seeming similarities with p2w, this is actually something entirely different that utterly fails to meet the definition of p2w on multiple levels, including:

1) You don't acquire the gold from the game. You acquire it from other players
2) Tokens are neither necessary nor sufficient to push you into the upper echelons of game progress



I will keep answering for as long as you keep replying with critically flawed nonsense that shows zero insight or understanding of the topic at hand. Go research what p2w actually is. Apply critical thinking to the topic. Then come back and thank me for enlightening you.

Well, right now it may not be as gamebreaking to buy some BoE´s with cash. But remember when corruptions were a thing? A guild could literally spend millions of gold for BoE´s with BiS corruptions and be MILES and MILES ahead of others.

In that case it doesnt quite matter if you buy the gold from other players or it is generated in some cash shop. The end result for other players is the same.

[Raelbo]

Blizzard is still making money on the transaction of gold. Theyre selling the service. Theres a reason the token is more expensive than a month of game time.

Why are you repeating an argument that I have just rebutted? I don't know who you think you're impressing with this strategy of repeating shit without ever bothering to address what is said in response.

[Daymanmb]

But remember when corruptions were a thing? A guild could literally spend millions of gold for BoE´s with BiS corruptions and be MILES and MILES ahead of others.

In that case it doesnt quite matter if you buy the gold from other players or it is generated in some cash shop. The end result for other players is the same.

And the top guilds did.

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Why are you repeating an argument that I have just rebutted? I don't know who you think you're impressing with this strategy of repeating shit without ever bothering to address what is said in response.

For one, you didnt rebut anything... comparing Airbnb to WoW gold selling is pretty fallacious, if only for the fact that you can choose not to use Airbnb and get the service elsewhere without the middle man. You dont have that luxury with WoW without breaking the ToS. Thats not even mentioning the fact that blizzard is selling their own products, while Airbnb is a host site for other people selling their products.. Should I go on?

Secondly, what service is Blizzard facilitating that requires them to profit off of gold selling? Theyre not a "middle man" when I buy a month of game time from the store, but suddenly they become one when I buy a token from the store? Seems convenient for your talking point..

[rhorle]

How do you then go one to argue like I didnt just say that? Jesus christ...

" Majority doesn't mean anything at all. " How is acknowledging and talking about it ignoring that you even said it?

Sure, theres a difference, but in both cases power is paid for with real money, directly or indirectly...

Indirectly matters. Because buying gold isn't always buying power. That is something you've agreed to which is why you've moved the goal posts to "majority" rather then "all". Either buying gold is pay to win or it isn't. It can't be both at the same time.

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No, you dont gain any power from a boosted character. You gain levels...

Levels are power.

[Daymanmb]

Indirectly matters. Because buying gold isn't always buying power. That is something you've agreed to which is why you've moved the goal posts to "majority" rather then "all". Either buying gold is pay to win or it isn't. It can't be both at the same time.

While I also acknowledge that if one person uses that gold to buy advantages, the system becomes p2w.

And remember I said:

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

So knock it off with the "you've moved the goal posts to "majority" rather then "all"". I dont know how many times I have to say something for you to understand it, but its reeeally annoying, because I never said "majority" or "all" matter. In fact, as you can see, I said the complete opposite..

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

If one person in WoW buys gold to buy advantages, its p2w. Majority means shit

Just to hammer my stance home for you....

[nvaelz]

WoW is p2w if and only if you account for boosting services. WoW is actually gear to win since ilvl matters so much and isn't the easiest to come by. Still too tedious for me to play an alt, imagine being rollercoastered by some ilvl 257 pvp baller for about 2 weeks ingame time before I'm "not gratefully" rewarded with the same opportunity to bang ilvl 180 alts into unsubscription, it's foul, but maybe Blizzard will make things more fun for fresh characters eventually.

Btw, people will always find a way to p2w no matter if there's a wow token or not. What reduced p2w is people having the possibility to make it on their own, have fun farming Korthia for 3 months every day to reach the pinnacle tho, that's a drag to say the least, and if you PVP you still have to wait for another like month b4 u can fully conquest gear, so actually it's w2w "wait to win"

[Raelbo]

Well, right now it may not be as gamebreaking to buy some BoE´s with cash. But remember when corruptions were a thing? A guild could literally spend millions of gold for BoE´s with BiS corruptions and be MILES and MILES ahead of others.

Yes. They could spend GOLD. Gold =/= cash.

p2w very specifically means that players acquire, with real money, an in-game advantage this either impossible, or at least extremely difficult, to counter by simply paying the game. And while you are totally correct that the guilds vying for world first spent a fortune in GOLD in order to gain a competitive advantage, the fact that did not use tokens to do so pretty much annihilates your argument.

In that case it doesnt quite matter if you buy the gold from other players or it is generated in some cash shop. The end result for other players is the same.

No it is not - because the amount of gold that can be acquired via token will always be perfectly viable to acquire in-game because, by definition, there is a group of players (those who buy tokens off the AH) who already do this.

If the token was p2w then you'd expect that those "winning" in the gold stakes would be those paying cash. And this patently just isn't true at all. In fact the opposite is true. Token sellers are typically the poorest players (gold wise) in the game, with token buyers (those who spend their gold to buy tokens) being, by far, the richest (gold wise).

[crusadernero]

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Levels are power.

Great, then we agree on that levels = power. Then obtaining gear, achivs, titles & mounts via token(gold) = power. Better gear = player power. Obtain certain achivs = Gains access to do more content. Therefore buying token = Skip content to reach the stage of being relevant.

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WoW is p2w if and only if you account for boosting services. WoW is actually gear to win since ilvl matters so much and isn't the easiest to come by. Still too tedious for me to play an alt, imagine being rollercoastered by some ilvl 257 pvp baller for about 2 weeks ingame time before I'm "not gratefully" rewarded with the same opportunity to bang ilvl 180 alts into unsubscription, it's foul, but maybe Blizzard will make things more fun for fresh characters eventually.

Btw, people will always find a way to p2w no matter if there's a wow token or not. What reduced p2w is people having the possibility to make it on their own, have fun farming Korthia for 3 months every day to reach the pinnacle tho, that's a drag to say the least, and if you PVP you still have to wait for another like month b4 u can fully conquest gear, so actually it's w2w "wait to win"

Indeed. Thats why token+boosting/carries are so popular. The leveling is considered dogshit content, so Blizzard offers paid boost. The gearing and obtaining player power at 60 is not a quickly done task. It takes long time, especially if you dont have lots of friends and a strong guild.

All of the content is there to do yes, but its a tedious and long ass task to complete just to reach a somewhat relevant stage.

So its easier to flesh out a few token runs, get the stuff you need and drop doing kortia, bgs/arena or pug dungeons/raids.