Seems like development team 2 is doing what they want with the game.

[UndedoKoleda]

We have information from Blizzards API that roughly what, 10% of the playerbase touched at least one raidboss in 9.1. Only 10%!

Now, if what you're saying is true, 88% of the playerbase that frequent this forum will NOT resub in 9.1 Is this representative of the entire WoW playerbase?
(https://www.mmo-champion.com/poll.ph...do=showresults)

80% of the playerbase on this site, thinks that the game is bad and will continue to be bad, or get worse
(https://www.mmo-champion.com/poll.ph...do=showresults)

Here's a juicer, according to this poll, over 50% of the playerbase that frequent this site will aim to get season 2 KSM mount.
(https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ill-you-get-it)

If you go to, say, Raider.io you'll see that there are less than 500 000 characters that are at KSM keylevels. There are just over 2 million characters tracked there, that has done at least one key (+2 and above).
Out of all characters that has done at least a +2, less than 25% are at KSM levels.

There are 2.2m members of the WoW subreddit. Is the entire wow playerbase on Reddit, UndedoKoleda? By the way, less than 1/4th of the people on the WoW subreddit has done one m+ key or more. How does this add up when 50% of the playerbase on this forum aims to get KSM...?

20287 guilds has killed first boss in SoD on normal difficulty. I'm not really sure if I need to go on.


It's well known, and has been for over a decade, that the people who frequent fansites, or discussion forums in WoW - are a minority. Always has been, always will be. If you think you can get a representative sample of the entire playerbase based off of a minority that is vastly different than the average/median player, then I don't really know what to say to you.
Even if we assume that the entire wow playerbase is on Reddit, I've just proven, using your logic, that the playerbase on MMOC isn't representative.

I am eagerly awaiting your response, as I'm sure you're still in denial and refuse to admit you're wrong.

Oh, and to answer your question; According to a poll on this site, WoD is superior to BFA and Shadowlands.

If people on this site and other fansites has been asking for Covenant changes since Beta, why did it take a year for the change to take effect..? Great logic, chap! You ought to stop using the "ripcord" as an argument for your case. It does the opposite.

Yes, I do believe that these poll votes are a good starting point to what the majority of the player base thinks. It might not be these exact percents, but I do believe that it's a good indicator to how many people were thinking about resubbing for 9.1, how the bigger part of the player base see bleak feature for WoW after the fiasco that we had the last couple of expansions.

If you go to, say, Raider.io you'll see that there are less than 500 000 characters that are at KSM keylevels. There are just over 2 million characters tracked there, that has done at least one key (+2 and above).
Out of all characters that has done at least a +2, less than 25% are at KSM levels.

This one I can't really give my insight on, as I don't know where did you get these numbers. Is it 500 000 unique accounts or just characters? Are the over 2 mil chars unique or are there alts in there too? If there are alts of people who've done KSM on their main, the percent of unique people who got KSM will go up, might not be equal to 50% as the poll says, but won't be that far behind.

And I still maintain my belief that this forum(and any other WoW fan site) and the people's opinions on it, are a good indicator about the general feelings of the broader player base regarding various aspects of the game.

[Makabreska]

And I still maintain my belief that this forum(and any other WoW fan site) and the people's opinions on it, are a good indicator about the general feelings of the broader player base regarding various aspects of the game.

Feelings? Sure. Numbers? Not so much.

[UndedoKoleda]

Feelings? Sure. Numbers? Not so much.

What does that even mean?

Of course, if 80% of the people who, for instance, voted that Shadowlands is a disappointment here, on MMO-Champ, doesn't mean that exactly 80% of the overall player base think that it sucks. But does it, just because it's on a fan site, mean, that the people who voted like that are a 'vocal minority' and the majority of the player base considers it a success? I don't think so, I think it is a good indicator about the overall player base opinion on Shadowlands.

The opinions of the people visiting fan sites such as MMO-Champ, Reddit WoW and so on, in their bigger part match those on the official WoW Forums. If you think the people here are fringe cases, how about the official forums then? You can't just dismiss people's opinions and call them "vocal minority" simply because you disagree with them.

[Makabreska]

What does that even mean?

Of course, if 80% of the people who, for instance, voted that Shadowlands is a disappointment here, on MMO-Champ, doesn't mean that exactly 80% of the overall player base think that it sucks. But does it, just because it's on a fan site, mean, that the people who voted like that are a 'vocal minority' and the majority of the player base considers it a success? I don't think so, I think it is a good indicator about the overall player base opinion on Shadowlands.

The opinions of the people visiting fan sites such as MMO-Champ, Reddit WoW and so on, in their bigger part match those on the official WoW Forums. If you think the people here are fringe cases, how about the official forums then? You can't just dismiss people's opinions and call them "vocal minority" simply because you disagree with them.

And who says that people who come here, don't also go to Reddit and official forums, saying same things? These places aren't mutually exclusive ya kno. And yes, these are all minorities, because average WoW player doesn't frequent these places. He plays for a few hours per week and didn't even hear about "pulling the ripcord" or harassment drama. They don't have to think about SL as a "success", they just do the stuff they have been always doing and it suits them. So ye, saying that you know what's the "general feeling" about the game basing only on polls on this and other sites is incorrect.

[UndedoKoleda]

And who says that people who come here, don't also go to Reddit and official forums, saying same things? These places aren't mutually exclusive ya kno. And yes, these are all minorities, because average WoW player doesn't frequent these places. He plays for a few hours per week and didn't even hear about "pulling the ripcord" or harassment drama. They don't have to think about SL as a "success", they just do the stuff they have been always doing and it suits them. So ye, saying that you know what's the "general feeling" about the game basing only on polls on this and other sites is incorrect.

How do you know that? Any source?

For the rest of it - it's called a Sample, we've already been through this on the last page.

Also, let me ask one last time- what is the average WoW player? We have plenty of all different kinds of people here, what makes you think that the posters on MMO-Champ are not fit into the category "average player"? Is it forbidden to the "average player" to visit fan sites and read out-of-game sources?

[Asrialol]

Yes, I do believe that these poll votes are a good starting point to what the majority of the player base thinks. It might not be these exact percents, but I do believe that it's a good indicator to how many people were thinking about resubbing for 9.1, how the bigger part of the player base see bleak feature for WoW after the fiasco that we had the last couple of expansions.



This one I can't really give my insight on, as I don't know where did you get these numbers. Is it 500 000 unique accounts or just characters? Are the over 2 mil chars unique or are there alts in there too? If there are alts of people who've done KSM on their main, the percent of unique people who got KSM will go up, might not be equal to 50% as the poll says, but won't be that far behind.

And I still maintain my belief that this forum(and any other WoW fan site) and the people's opinions on it, are a good indicator about the general feelings of the broader player base regarding various aspects of the game.

It's 500 000 characters, so it counts alts as well. With that in mind, the 2 million character mark gets reduced as well in terms of unique characters / players.

A lot of people has been talking about Bellular's (shrug) vid where he talks about how 10% of the playerbase raids. That is - actively raiding. Considering 20287 guilds killed first boss on normal, assuming the guild run was with 30 people for each guild (highly unlikely), that's just over 600 000 players. Now if we take into the account that 10% actively raids, that's a lot less players.

2193 guilds killed Sire Denathrius on mythic, that's just above 40 000 players. About 138 guilds cleared Naxxramas in vanilla (not classic, mind you) 15+ years ago.

How do you know that? Any source?

For the rest of it - it's called a Sample, we've already been through this on the last page.

Also, let me ask one last time- what is the average WoW player? We have plenty of all different kinds of people here, what makes you think that the posters on MMO-Champ are not fit into the category "average player"? Is it forbidden to the "average player" to visit fan sites and read out-of-game sources?

Only Blizzard knows this for sure. The only thing we can do is look at armory stats and whatever statistics their API allows us to see.
If you want to venture into the World of WarAPI, check this out: https://develop.battle.net/documenta...t/profile-apis

What has been found, though, is that a majority of the playerbase doesn't actively raid, and doesn't actively participate in m+ or rated PVP. And if others has found that only 10% of the playerbase raids, well..

What do you think the average wow player does while ingame?

[Echocho]

What has been found, though, is that a majority of the playerbase doesn't actively raid, and doesn't actively participate in m+ or rated PVP. And if others has found that only 10% of the playerbase raids, well..

Which is why it's a really big mistake to focus so hard on that content and lock all the good gear behind it. It's why people are leaving

[Makabreska]

Which is why it's a really big mistake to focus so hard on that content and lock all the good gear behind it. It's why people are leaving

People leave, because gear is out of their reach? Please. This is how gearing up always worked in past decade or so. You got different difficulties for each content with appropriate rewards. You want high ilvl gear from solo gameplay? Not gonna happen. And you actually already get it to some extent, with rep vendors, weekly events, Vault and such. Wrong diagnosis.

[MoanaLisa]

The global audience for World of Warcraft numbers into the millions. The number of users of this forum that regularly post about the game are a few hundred of which many no longer play and some are posting just to get attention. This is nothing like a valid sample of opinion. Too small, too specialized and too corrupted with agendas and nonsense instead of true opinions.

"They hate the game" is a perfectly valid opinion. Opinions about game segments when the base from which a poster starts is "I hate the game" can and should be ignored.

[Utrrabbit]

He most likely did not, unless you have proof of what's actually true and care to share

Kevin Jordon himself saying he did? On his twitch streams and in interviews. Just google kevin jordon classes.

[Log Cabin]

The global audience for World of Warcraft numbers into the millions. The number of users of this forum that regularly post about the game are a few hundred of which many no longer play and some are posting just to get attention. This is nothing like a valid sample of opinion. Too small, too specialized and too corrupted with agendas and nonsense instead of true opinions.

"They hate the game" is a perfectly valid opinion. Opinions about game segments when the base from which a poster starts is "I hate the game" can and should be ignored.

Seems like a way to ensure things never improve. Granted I might be jaded but it always seems like when blizzard purposely moves against the more knowledgeable of the playerbase (mythic raiders/Glads) the game ends up worse for everyone involved. I can't think of a system either of those groups rejected that became popular or helped along the game.

The closest I can see is maybe visions? Though those were horribly artificially time gated.

[Soon-TM]

We have information from Blizzards API that roughly what, 10% of the playerbase touched at least one raidboss in 9.1. Only 10%!

Offtopic (or not really), I know, but I cannot help thinking that that's some real nice way to spend your budget, with the most expensive parts being content that only <10% of your customers are interested at.

@UndedoKoleda don't waste your time with the "silent majority" crowd. It is a quite old tactic for derailing a discussion, and in fact is considered a logical fallacy.

The Silent Majority Fallacy: A variety of the argument from ignorance, this fallacy, famously enunciated by disgraced American President Richard Nixon, alleges special knowledge of a hidden "silent majority" of voters (or of the population in general) that stands in support of an otherwise unpopular leader and his/her policies, contrary to the repeated findings of polls, surveys and popular vote totals. In an extreme case the leader arrogates to him/herself the title of the "Voice of the Voiceless."

The last sentence does say a lot of the mindset of those who indulge themselves in such ways of "reasoning".

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Offtopic (or not really), I know, but I cannot help thinking that that's some real nice way to spend your budget, with the most expensive parts being content that only <10% of your customers are interested at.

That’s why lfr exist. When they first added it in cata they said something along the lines of raids not being done by enough people to warrant the dev cost and they wanted to see if lfr would change that.

[Tikishock]

When you take a shit, do you just leave the shitstain on your ass? Or do you wipe?

I think most reasonable people would wipe.

Honestly, the biggest question is whether you wipe standing up or sitting on down?

[Kralljin]

That’s why lfr exist. When they first added it in cata they said something along the lines of raids not being done by enough people to warrant the dev cost and they wanted to see if lfr would change that.

I find this argument always odd, because it effectively exposes LFR just as a tool to prob up engagement metrics, rather than being genuine content for a more casual playerbase.

Like, people argued about whether LFR is good for the game or not, perhaps the better debate would be whether LFR is actually good content.

[vincink]

And I still maintain my belief that this forum(and any other WoW fan site) and the people's opinions on it, are a good indicator about the general feelings of the broader player base regarding various aspects of the game.

I would encourage you to drop that belief. Over time, the population of a forum tends to coalesce. Coalescing is the opposite of diversifying. As an example, the official World of Warcraft General Forum has coalesced into mostly disgruntled argumentation and belly-aching. It was not always like that. I speak from experience having participated daily on the WoW General Forum since 2008 until roughly 2018.

The better approach is to observe by where people spend their money.

----

Re: the original topic of this thread.

I think ideology has overridden creativity at Blizzard. Perhaps it has been happening for a long time and we've simply been unaware of it. However, it is now out in the open: artists with a particularly strongly-held predisposition on social and political topics now have enough of an influence to drive the employees to defy the employer. The focus then becomes about affecting a certain revolutionary outcome rather than designing and engineering a creative and fun game.

[Echocho]

I think ideology has overridden creativity at Blizzard. Perhaps it has been happening for a long time and we've simply been unaware of it. However, it is now out in the open: artists with a particularly strongly-held predisposition on social and political topics now have enough of an influence to drive the employees to defy the employer. The focus then becomes about affecting a certain revolutionary outcome rather than designing and engineering a creative and fun game.

It's not ideology, it's a religion and just like any religion if you're devout and follow it blindly you can be very dangerous.

[vincink]

It's not ideology, it's a religion and just like any religion if you're devout and follow it blindly you can be very dangerous.

Exactly. It's a religion.

[Ielenia]

I’d say keeping things like the den of delights, adding gigolo’s, adding incuibi and keeping succubi shows that there keeping raunchy stuff in the game.

I'm honestly fine with that.

Mostly I'm annoyed at stuff like changing Maximillian of Northshire's "damsels were made to be saved" quest, and stuff like changing female portraits to portraits of fruits, and even many of the jokes and flirts. It's not like the women in there were nude or even scantily clad in those pictures, AFAIK.

As for the jokes/flirst, I suppose I wouldn't mind as much if we had them REPLACED instead of outright REMOVED.

[Asrialol]

Offtopic (or not really), I know, but I cannot help thinking that that's some real nice way to spend your budget, with the most expensive parts being content that only <10% of your customers are interested at.

@UndedoKoleda don't waste your time with the "silent majority" crowd. It is a quite old tactic for derailing a discussion, and in fact is considered a logical fallacy.



The last sentence does say a lot of the mindset of those who indulge themselves in such ways of "reasoning".

It's kinda been like that since the beginning, though. At least they tried to make it more accessible with LFR. The reception of that was.. well.


Regarding the logicla fallacy, you guys surely must understand that there is a difference between sampling 1000 random accounts of the total playerbase, and sampling 1000 random people on MMO Champion.