If Blizz gave Warfronts a 2nd chance, what would you like to see

[Radioactive]

They could go with two different routes with Warfronts :

1/ Focus on the "Open-World Warfront" side, essentially remastering what the Ahn'Qiraj war effort was in classic with pvp objectives.

Some feature / phase example :
=> Make people choose a faction (example: Desolace War front, either join Magram or Gelkis or Kolkar or Galak or Maraudine) and gather ressources through the days to improve your base
=> An assault / expedition phase, where factions would fight each other to win some locations, magical artifacts, or recruit neutral forces, in the zone. (Mixing some PvP and PvE adventures).
You could imagine a system where factions could ally to prevent unbalace (in case for example the Magram faction has too much players or ressources, other factions could ally)
=> A final "Epic War" phase, where factions could unleashed all ressources/magical artifacts/etc they gathered against each other, and factions could siege each others base.



2 / Focus on the "Instanced Warfront" side, nearly the same as actual Warfront, but harder and more engaging, essentially a remaster of BC's Mount Hyjal raid

=> Make it as challenging as actual raiding, scaling up to 40man, needing a raid leader and all that.
=> Replayability should be allowed like raiding: like if your raid fails to win/defend a base, then it's a wipe and you have to re-do the fight. If your raid stop at midnight, you could continue the Warfront the next day with your progression saved (ie: 3 bases won over 5)
=> Winning a base could give some perks to help continue to progress the Warfront until the final siege, and obviously some epic loot like when you kill a boss in a raid, or/and profession ressources, allowing for extra hard mod (ie "Siege Eldre'Thalas with only 2 bases instead of 5")

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But whatever route they choose for remastered warfront, the most important thing would be to make ressources shared for everyone in their faction/raid, so when your raid needs to split in order to defend your base, anyone could click the updrage button for your buildings.

I remember when only 3-4 people focused on actually upgrading the Warfront, while the rest was stacking 100+ ressources and never using them, waiting for others to move their asses. No more of that!

[Khaza-R]

⬦Make a PvP mode as well

⬦Use the tactical AI for PvE mode

⬦Get rid of the gathering resources gimick as its easily the most boring part

⬦Less players overall - make it 10v10 or 15v15

⬦Harsh lockouts for AFK'ing in either mode

⬦Every player selects a unit with preloaded abilities - these units level up through the game and can branch into semi-different builds. Similar to a MOBA playstyle

⬦Overall units are balanced similar to RTS allowing for strategy each match

[WowIsDead64]

It's no lie to say Warfronts were not worth the hype blizz set up in BfA, but if Blizz were to decide to redeem it with some well needed changes to how it works so that their more fun what themes would you like to see

Dwarves vs Tauren, or Gnomes vs Trolls go without saying since it would round out themes for the original 8 races, but we could go farther

Personally, I kind of like the idea of Worgen vs Mag'har, with both being more industrialized counterparts to the main races, with Worgen mail giving a musketeer sort of appearance while Plate gets a dark knight flavor compared to Stormwind(with an open mouth helmet to fit Worgen better), and Mag'har plate being a mix of the Blackrock set from WoD and the Mag'har heritage armor while Leather gets a set based on the Shattered hand Orc models and mail being based on the Frostwolves

Overall BFA was about assumption, that PVE players actually like PVP, but entry threshold is too high, so many players aren't brave enough to start doing it. So, Blizzard wanted to implement something like PVP LFR. But... Their initial assumption was wrong. Players don't like PVP, because it's unfair, humiliating and too stressful content. That's why PVP-themed xpacks are doomed to fail.

[Romanthony]

I think a few things would make it better
1 Make it solo so your the "General" of a big army, so it really is like a RTS (which is what they billied it to be) Make it like 3rd person RTS with base building and such
2 Add a pvp option so you Vs another general
3 Add more

[Zora-Prime]

I would like them to steal New World's war system instead of trying to make whatever Warfront were work

[Log Cabin]

Overall BFA was about assumption, that PVE players actually like PVP, but entry threshold is too high, so many players aren't brave enough to start doing it. So, Blizzard wanted to implement something like PVP LFR. But... Their initial assumption was wrong. Players don't like PVP, because it's unfair, humiliating and too stressful content. That's why PVP-themed xpacks are doomed to fail.

There biggest problem seems to be trying to reinvent the wheel. I don't think warfronts and pvp have anything to do with each other...Their goal for half a decade now is to invent another type of group content that will garner the same interest dungeons and raids have for their community.

The problem is they keep setting the difficulty bar to "barely has a pulse" and whatever mode they make just ends up a dull required grind. The closest they got to success was visions and honestly if they could of stopped themselves from time gating it via research upgrades I think they would of had a winner.

[WowIsDead64]

There biggest problem seems to be trying to reinvent the wheel. I don't think warfronts and pvp have anything to do with each other...Their goal for half a decade now is to invent another type of group content that will garner the same interest dungeons and raids have for their community.

The problem is they keep setting the difficulty bar to "barely has a pulse" and whatever mode they make just ends up a dull required grind. The closest they got to success was visions and honestly if they could of stopped themselves from time gating it via research upgrades I think they would of had a winner.

Major problem with making hard content - is that it would be just another content just for 1% of playerbase, that already has more than enough content, while 99% of other players still have nothing to do in this game. Overall problem of such content, is that it's content just for the sake of content. Something on a par with Isles and Torghast, that have no reward systems, so players should do them, only if they like process itself, not to get some rewards.

[Biggles Worth]

The only way to save Warfronts would be to make them a new PvP 40-player battleground, with the same objectives.

Man, I've been saying this since I was playing it that a PvP warfront would be a pretty epic battle and I have clue clue why they didn't do it.

- - - Updated - - -

Warfronts have been imo among the worst content that has ever made its way into WoW. Only Snoreghast comes close to THAT level of awfulness.

That's an exaggeration.

[Log Cabin]

Major problem with making hard content - is that it would be just another content just for 1% of playerbase, that already has more than enough content, while 99% of other players still have nothing to do in this game. Overall problem of such content, is that it's content just for the sake of content. Something on a par with Isles and Torghast, that have no reward systems, so players should do them, only if they like process itself, not to get some rewards.

The problem with your line of thinking is it is entirely and utterly wrong. The "I wanna win without trying crowd has 99% of the content the good players only get slivers. The issue is most wow players don't really want to play a video game. They want a ego simulator so what you do is release something super hard so only the best can beat it. Then over time you add the " Just like daddy" mode.

Think mage towers. They are remembered fondly because they can be outgeared. You start off making the mode good, balanced and fun to play then you nerf it into oblivion in a later patch like lfr. You have to go down the rungs of the ladder not up when you release new content.

[hulkgor]

No reason to do so, and i'd rather they never spend another second of consideration or development on it.

Horrible feature, good riddance.

I have to agree with other users in that it's probably the worst feature ever implemented in WoW.

[Huntermyth]

i want them to turn it into an epic bg.

[LordVargK]

I'd like to imagine that this was the original intent behind the game mode hence the 3 lane structure, the minions etc. and somewhere along the way someone said "but people don't play PvP! People didn't like Ashran!" and they just turned it into this trivial PvE chore.

Which is true. Many People don't like PvP. But instead of making WFs a PvE PvP hybrid (like PvP IEs) they abandoned them entirely.

[Ezyah]

Warfronts is the perfect example of what the game would be if raid were tuned to make everybody able to clear it as i saw it requested on these forums multiple times ....

[Beefhammer]

The only way to save Warfronts would be to make them a new PvP 40-player battleground, with the same objectives.

This and reward far more honor for participating in the base building and defending. Make building structures and upgrading them important. Make them required for victory as players themselves should need the aid of those units, support, and whatever to take down opposing structures and heroes. As it was it was just another gogogogogo activity, and that mentality tends to ruing anything. Not saying they were the greatest thing, but in my small taste of them at the end of BfA, I enjoyed their potential.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Make it possible to actually lose.

[WowIsDead64]

The problem with your line of thinking is it is entirely and utterly wrong. The "I wanna win without trying crowd has 99% of the content the good players only get slivers. The issue is most wow players don't really want to play a video game. They want a ego simulator so what you do is release something super hard so only the best can beat it. Then over time you add the " Just like daddy" mode.

Think mage towers. They are remembered fondly because they can be outgeared. You start off making the mode good, balanced and fun to play then you nerf it into oblivion in a later patch like lfr. You have to go down the rungs of the ladder not up when you release new content.

We can also say opposite, that Wow should be video game - not E-Sport. I guess, I shouldn't explain, what is difference between game and sport? Goals are opposite. Games are for fun and sport is about competition. Sport is about "Who isn't Messi - doesn't really plays football". So every player should aspire to that Olymp's top. That's why these "good players" in your statement trigger me a little bit. Problem is - you should understand, that major goal for Blizzard isn't to provide "good" game for "good" players. Their goal is to have as many players, as possible. And I think, I don't need to remind you about normal distribution of skills and that it's pointless to make game for "good" players?

What I wanted to say - is that top players already have plenty of content, like Mythic Raids, Mythic+, Arenas, RBGs. So it just sounds weird, when they start to ask for MORE content. Like "Also give us outdoor and warfronts". And what is even more weird - Blizzard cater to them. While casual players, who already have very limited content, that is usually just crumbs from hardcores' table, are pushed out of game even more. You should clearly understand, that game doesn't have solid casual content now. There are disparate activities, that have problems with constantly stumbling upon exceeding difficulty due to bad scaling. This is core reason, why I no longer play this game. At the end everybody is supposed to go to one of big trinity - raids, M+ or rated PVP. Everything else - just isn't correct way of playing this game.

[Log Cabin]

We can also say opposite, that Wow should be video game - not E-Sport. I guess, I shouldn't explain, what is difference between game and sport? Goals are opposite. Games are for fun and sport is about competition. Sport is about "Who isn't Messi - doesn't really plays football". So every player should aspire to that Olymp's top. That's why these "good players" in your statement trigger me a little bit. Problem is - you should understand, that major goal for Blizzard isn't to provide "good" game for "good" players. Their goal is to have as many players, as possible. And I think, I don't need to remind you about normal distribution of skills and that it's pointless to make game for "good" players?

What I wanted to say - is that top players already have plenty of content, like Mythic Raids, Mythic+, Arenas, RBGs. So it just sounds weird, when they start to ask for MORE content. Like "Also give us outdoor and warfronts". And what is even more weird - Blizzard cater to them. While casual players, who already have very limited content, that is usually just crumbs from hardcores' table, are pushed out of game even more. You should clearly understand, that game doesn't have solid casual content now. There are disparate activities, that have problems with constantly stumbling upon exceeding difficulty due to bad scaling. This is core reason, why I no longer play this game. At the end everybody is supposed to go to one of big trinity - raids, M+ or rated PVP. Everything else - just isn't correct way of playing this game.

It might be a difficult problem for me to explain in a way you can accept... I am going to try and while I might come off slightly patronizing I don't mean to.

The problem stems from what you consider "casual players". I don't personally think they enjoy the game itself. They might have memories of fun times and I am sure there is a point while leveling or doing easy content they had fun... the problem is they didn't want to invest in the game but wanted every experience to give them the thrill of beating an unknown although easy challenge.

The problem is that can't ever be sustainable. That enjoyment only lasts a single time and then it fades to almost nothing. You talk of the trinity of raids, M+ and rated pvp but then recoil at the idea of expanding that level of mastery. Scenarios, warfronts, , choreghast all tried to build up a easy challenge to a hard one and they all absolutely and utterly failed. Visions... I am honestly unsure of... to me they felt crippled by their time gating and need to farm a resource we could debate that.

Mastery should always be the goal of any game. It doesn't matter if people make it to the top. They should be enjoying the climb along the way if they don't then I don't know how you make a game like a mmo for them beyond the first experience leveling and the first clear of every dungeon.

[shise]

Make them like Wintergrasp. Then they would be good.

[WowIsDead64]

It might be a difficult problem for me to explain in a way you can accept... I am going to try and while I might come off slightly patronizing I don't mean to.

The problem stems from what you consider "casual players". I don't personally think they enjoy the game itself. They might have memories of fun times and I am sure there is a point while leveling or doing easy content they had fun... the problem is they didn't want to invest in the game but wanted every experience to give them the thrill of beating an unknown although easy challenge.

The problem is that can't ever be sustainable. That enjoyment only lasts a single time and then it fades to almost nothing. You talk of the trinity of raids, M+ and rated pvp but then recoil at the idea of expanding that level of mastery. Scenarios, warfronts, , choreghast all tried to build up a easy challenge to a hard one and they all absolutely and utterly failed. Visions... I am honestly unsure of... to me they felt crippled by their time gating and need to farm a resource we could debate that.

Mastery should always be the goal of any game. It doesn't matter if people make it to the top. They should be enjoying the climb along the way if they don't then I don't know how you make a game like a mmo for them beyond the first experience leveling and the first clear of every dungeon.

Yeah, your vision is too narrow. Challenge - is just one of many ways to play games. There is no best way to do it. They're all equal.

I can agree, that with age something has changed for me not only about Wow, but about playing all games. When I was kid, process of playing games itself was so exciting and I was focusing on it so much, that I was forgetting about everything else, including fatigue. But today fatigue is actually big factor. And I just think, that I'm not alone. All players become casual at some point exactly this way. Being experienced, but casual player - is something similar to being noob. If game has too high entry threshold - you don't play it.

For example may be Farming Simulator is good game, but it's too scary, when you see, how many things you have to learn before starting to play it properly.

[Raelbo]

Personally I quite enjoyed Warfronts, and in particular the guild events we had with them.

I suspect that a key part of what kept them enjoyable for us is that we didn't do them very much. The typical complaint thread back in the day was along the lines of people grinding them for the gear and then complaining that they were boring. This isn't surprising. I don't think the Warfronts had very good repeatability. And when you combine this with a playerbase who will rabidly pursue any content to death if they perceive a potential power gain, of course it's going to become hated.

Anyhow, I wouldn't suggest they do more Warfronts. I think the development effort vs playable time ratio is just too low. That being said, if they did reintroduce it, I would suggest putting hard limits on the gear that can be obtained from it per week, thus giving the min-maxers no reason to grind them into boredom.