[Spoilers] Shattered legacies (new cinematic)

[woodnf1]

You are joking right ? Did you really watch hole video and think redemption.

She actually used the words herself that all she did cant be forgiven.

I think the animation is really good. It actually gave me all the feels and even made me a little teary-eyed. Well done, can't wait to play through all of this.

[omeomorfismo]

rotfl, what a shit show..
even the last forsaken felt, now we will be really protectors of the livings kissing the human potential...
bye sylvanas and bye forsaken....

fuck you blizzard

[Super Dickmann]

I'd completely ignore Matthias Lehner, this entire thing is another instance of "oops, people didn't talk to each other"

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Matthias_Lehner




Honestly, in hindsight i would just say that Matthias Lehner is a creation of Yogg-saron, considering the quests end with removing any doubts about Arthas being redeemable and the Lich King getting weakened, which naturally benefitted Yogg-saron as there was supposed to be a direct connection between the LK and Yogg, which didn't make it into the game because the devs forgot to actually put it in the game.

Yeah I brought up that argument when I first referenced it. Whether Matthias is a gameplay mechanic or not, he's the obvious inspiration for this entire turn of phrase and the idea that he's entirely a framing device doesn't gel with the fact that the frozen heart being destroyed does hurt Arthas. That the takeaway is "yes, Arthas is still responsible" and not "Yes, Sylvanas is still responsible, except not really" is down to how the rabbithole regarding culpability that Wrath was only brushing over turning into the abyss it is now.

That said if the Yogg thing was set up it'd be interesting, but it reminds me a lot of the "Terenas is actually Yogg" stuff at the end of Wrath that was quickly tossed out.

[sighy]

This is the rotten edifice this whole stupid story is based on. For the retcon to work we need to actually have Sylvanas's perspective so there are coherent stakes and positions. But since we don't past her conversation about determinism with Anduin and the only times we see her interact with the Bald Man is well after she has run her course as a special asset and her belief that this is a partnership is laughable, we can't empathize with or fully understand her position except as conjecture. I can claim that Sylvanas' motive is based around how whether a bunch of people go to hell or not is immaterial since once she has the control panel of reality she can fix it, or that she's salty because of the fate of the unlearned where your actions are judged based on parametres and morals you can't possibly know without passing, but that's what it is, conjecture.

Further, and this is where I entirely agree with @Nerovar on, the Shadowlands' revision of the afterlife and removal of the undead as always being damned means that the strongest plank of her reasoning for wanting to escape death (in Cataclysm) or rewrite death (in SL) is taken from her right away, making her position far more obtuse and weak regardless of what they might be.

This story as a whole hinged on Sylvanas's perspective from the moment she marched onto Teldrassil. I couldn't care less about Aliance and may as well be Aliance characters talking out of their ass given that they know about as much jackshit as the audience, if not outright less.

It'll be in a book, like expansions past, but books that come out after the fact are no cure for a coherent in-game narrative. Who praises Kael as being a realistic and sad fall scenario because Chronicle somewhat stitched his story together a decade after the fact compared to those who still remember him randomly becoming a crack addict in TBC?

I agree that it's absolute crap and the characters in question deserved better. With TBC one could argue that they were still getting hang of the whole in game storytelling thing given how the questing experience is a disjointed mess. But then there still is stuff like War Crimes,w here everyone that didn't read the book went like "Wait... i thought we just beat that guy"

[Sorshen]

I hope the Janitor erases us all...

[Highlord Hanibuhl]

Having all these characters go through all these emotions and phases makes it really hard to connect with them...

[Biomega]

I hope the Janitor erases us all...

Honestly at this point the Jailer succeeding somewhat and forcing a universe reset is pretty much the only hope I see left for the game...

[Eggroll]

It tickles me that no one in the Scooby gang here even tries to kill her. Where is Tyrande?

Exactly! And where is Malfurion all this expac? He seems MIA. Night Elves without a leader on Azeroth.

[Nemah]

I'm on the bandwagon for the animation. What was wrong with keeping it with the ol' standard? It's weird and....chunky....now. The hair in particular is odd.

As for the story - eh. It's not so much a redemption arc yet. While the story is still mostly poop they've laid the ground work for some sort of reckoning for her. She's apparently not going to forgive herself, and no one else is going to forgive her.

Under the current story supposition that it was her "bad half" all along it could create an interesting moral quandary of how to serve justice to such a being, but I don't know that the writing is up to exploring those kinds of ethical issues at the moment.

I do feel that the closer we come to any kind of actual reckoning for her, the less probability for a revamp or reset there is. Not sure why - just a hunch.

[Crillam]

What I take away from this...
Lol you watched the Twilight movies
Also "we" all knew this would happen, was even more obvious the second we saw 9.1 raid cinematic

[KaiserSolarius]

You are joking right ? Did you really watch hole video and think redemption.

She actually used the words herself that all she did cant be forgiven.

No, she actually said that it wasn't her fault, but she still will take responsabilities for the sins of the other her, because she's just that good of a person.
They did better than a redemption. They y made her a Christic figure!

[Magnagarde]

Well, what about Deahtwing, Arthas and the rest who were also corrupted? There's gonna be a long line outside Uther's clinic. Is there a specialist that specializes in villains who weren't mindcontrolled, but were decieved instead? Asking for Sargeras.

All in all, it looks like Star Wars Rebels with a smaller budget. The story itself is one of the worst possible outcomes that most of us anticipated for a while now and that's a Sylvanas redemption arc. You just know Danuser couldn't let it be any other way.

[Zelk]

Well, what about Deahtwing, Arthas and the rest who were also corrupted? There's gonna be a long line outside Uther's clinic. Is there a specialist that specializes in villains who weren't mindcontrolled, but were decieved instead? Asking for Sargeras.

All in all, it looks like Star Wars Rebels with a smaller budget. The story itself is one of the worst possible outcomes that most of us anticipated for a while now and that's a Sylvanas redemption arc. You just know Danuser couldn't let it be any other way.

This is literally not a redemption arc, you people really need to learn what that word means.

[Magnagarde]

This is literally not a redemption arc, you people really need to learn what that word means.

How would you call it?

The whole point of it is to make it so the character isn't as bad as she seemed to be, that there was some good left in there after all and that part of the blame falls on the big bad guy. That's all there is to it. It is a redemption story, one that won't necessarily have to end with the happy ever after epilogue. In fact, it is a lot worse than a redemption story because it voids any and all character agency.

I always stood firmly by the belief that she is a villain, but at least Sylvanas was one of the few consistently well-writter characters.

[Aucald]

How would you call it?

The whole point of it is to make it so the character isn't as bad as she seemed to be, that there's always been some good left in there and that part of the blame falls on the big bad guy. That's all there is to it.

Depends on exactly what you feel "redemption" means? Usually, the primary connotation is being saved or redeemed from one's sins or errors, having them either undone or justified. That's not really what's happening here - Ranger-General Sylvanas is acknowledging that her other half's (which we'll call Banshee Sylvanas) crimes are unforgivable, and even if they essentially merge then she's going to be on the hook for them as well, as a composite entity. That's less a redemption and more an acknowledgement that justice/vengeance is due - quite literally saying "I'm a monster and should be punished like a monster."

Whether or not that happens is anyone's guess, but what composite Sylvanas is saying here is the opposite of redemption. She's recognizing her crimes and professes a desire to see them addressed, accepting both guilt and blame for her atrocities.

[Magnagarde]

Depends on exactly what you feel "redemption" means? Usually, the primary connotation is being saved or redeemed from one's sins or errors, having them either undone or justified. That's not really what's happening here - Ranger-General Sylvanas is acknowledging that her other half's (which we'll call Banshee Sylvanas) crimes are unforgivable, and even if they essentially merge then she's going to be on the hook for them as well, as a composite entity. That's less a redemption and more an acknowledgement that justice/vengeance is due - quite literally saying "I'm a monster and should be punished like a monster."

Whether or not that happens is anyone's guess, but what composite Sylvanas is saying here is the opposite of redemption. She's recognizing her crimes and professes a desire to see them addressed, accepting both guilt and blame for her atrocities.

To me, her redemption started the moment she went from being the penultimate villain to being the character everyone depends on in order for the forces of good to triumph. The fact that she had "two halves" already absolves her of a lot of the things that she did from an out of character perspective, regardless whether her supposedly "good half" accepts punishment in character or not. It isn't a full-fledged redemption arc that sees her going back to where she was prior to everything, but it does remove a lot of character agency and the blame - to a large degree - falls on the "bad half" and the Jailer, with the "good half" being so unimaginably benevolent to be willing to take the blame for it. It is an out of character redemption in my opinion because her actions weren't entirely her own.

All of a sudden, through a single cinematic, she is OOC partially or even completely absolved from everything she's done in Cataclysm, in Legion, in BfA and in the Shadowlands. This development means that it is in fact unfair to judge her character.

[united]

A few of my thoughts...

Why are her eyes not glowing? Is she not an elf?

If they redeem Sylvanas because her soul was splintered, doesn't this mean someone like Arthas can be redeemed as well?

This isn't the first time Sylvanas and Uther have interacted. They met in some WOTLK dungeon when Sylvanas travels to Icecrown to kill Arthas herself.

I don't really like that they're basically turned this into a multiple personality disorder thing for Sylvanas. This means everything she ever did in WoW as we know it was not really her. For me this sucks because even though Sylvanas at this point has gone too far, she had her moments of moral greyness in WOTLK and Cataclysm which actually fit her as a character I feel. Seeing her gloat when Garrosh went under trial in MoP was nice too, because of their history. Sylvanas was so much better as an anti-hero type of character, but they turned her into an Arthas-level villain and now they're saying that none of that was really her in an effort to "redeem" her. She's going to have to pay for her crimes anyway, why go that route?

[Zelk]

How would you call it?

The whole point of it is to make it so the character isn't as bad as she seemed to be, that there was some good left in there after all and that part of the blame falls on the big bad guy. That's all there is to it. It is a redemption story, one that won't necessarily have to end with the happy ever after epilogue. In fact, it is a lot worse than a redemption story because it voids any and all character agency.

I always stood firmly by the belief that she is a villain, but at least Sylvanas was one of the few consistently well-writter characters.

recognising ones sins and seeking to undo them is atonement, not redemption. A redemption would have been if Sylvanas's actions were revealed to have been made in order to serve some grander, benevolent cause. The cinematic makes it very clear we should view her actions as evil, and that she is fully to blame for them.

[Rozz]

The idea of her having to reconcile the things she did isn't bad in concept, in fact it's basically the only way to see her undergo a real redemption, if she takes ownership of the baggage. If it were set up years ago (Legion at latest) then it would have been fine, but as it is it just kind of looks like it came out of the writer's anus. Then again, at this point i'm kind of getting used to Blizzard setting story beats up, after the relevant story has been resolved.


(Also did they use Heroes of the Storm models for that cinematic? Sheesh, at this rate we will be seeing pixel art by the time next expansion wraps)

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Having the character actually work for redemption, as compared to "Huehue suicideeee!" or something could be quite refreshing, IF handled well. (A big fat if given the quality of storytelling we've seen lately)

The thing is that I'm not sure they're going for a redemption arc. People thought that was what they were doing for Illidan via Xera's version of events but he ended up owning all his crimes and stayed a hooved bastard.

They'll likely do the same with her, not redeeming her but still giving her an ending she doesn't deserve at this point. If she actually dies or has a final consequence, that's the best outcome.

As for the models, idk. I barely noticed that they looked different from the current ones because both are really cartoony and look like they were made out of clay. The eye thing has been around since wod. Also it's possible the cinematic doesn't have its final polish/ filters.

[Magnagarde]

recognising ones sins and seeking to undo them is atonement, not redemption. A redemption would have been if Sylvanas's actions were revealed to have been made in order to serve some grander, benevolent cause. The cinematic makes it very clear we should view her actions as evil, and that she is fully to blame for them.

Attonement in character, but out of character we know she shouldn't be blamed for everything that "she" did because it wasn't her. It's an indirect out of character redemption, regardless if this development takes the form of attonement in character.