Should dungeons have more than 3 DPS? What if it was 1 tank 1 heal 5 dps?

[Sucralose]

Sounds like it's time to bring back Scenarios! Remember Scenarios from MoP? 3-man content that didn't require the holy trinity. Mix and match DPS, healers, and tanks.

Give scenarios a few difficulties so that at the high end it's roughly equal to a M0 in terms of loot (and upgradable if you have the valor and M+ score) and Bob's your uncle.

Also provide a small amount of valor at the end of the dungeon but not nearly as much as valor given at the end of a dungeon so that the most effective valor farm is not chain running scenarios.

I also remember scenarios were so unpopular they had half hour queues to find three people before they bribed people into them with excessive amounts of valor. Wow's issue is since the start it catered a large playerbase that don't seem to actually enjoy playing mmorpgs but got hooked by the social aspect of it. Now that internet has opened up more it isn't surprising wow is falling off.

These desperate attempts to cling to people who have only a passing interest in gameplay is going to do a lot more harm then good.

[NineSpine]

At higher end because it has a very pass fail culture even while leveling. I won't ever claim it is a harder game but from low levels dps are taught that if they don't hit the right target everyone dies. I would argue that having less dps eventually gets you better dps. The only reason why dps are so inflated in wow is because it is by far the easiest role to carry.

While the skill floor for tanking is super low there are some basics you need to know or the group dies. DPS doesn't really run into that till later in the game. Most dps requirements in wow are so low one strong dps at proper gear levels can carry 2 bad ones until heroic raiding or a mythic... 10ish.

I think the issue is WoW has so much content where DPS can engage with zero mechanics and not have an issue, so DPS are taught that standing there should be acceptable. This is reinforced in a lot of subtle ways, such as a lot of fights where if you aren't familiar with the fight already then you don't know that you are getting hit by things you shouldn't be. WoW loves fights where only 1-2 people have to even engage with any mechanics.

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I also remember scenarios were so unpopular they had half hour queues to find three people before they bribed people into them with excessive amounts of valor. Wow's issue is since the start it catered a large playerbase that don't seem to actually enjoy playing mmorpgs but got hooked by the social aspect of it. Now that internet has opened up more it isn't surprising wow is falling off.

These desperate attempts to cling to people who have only a passing interest in gameplay is going to do a lot more harm then good.

Then why is it falling off while other similar games surge?

[Sucralose]

I think the issue is WoW has so much content where DPS can engage with zero mechanics and not have an issue, so DPS are taught that standing there should be acceptable. This is reinforced in a lot of subtle ways, such as a lot of fights where if you aren't familiar with the fight already then you don't know that you are getting hit by things you shouldn't be. WoW loves fights where only 1-2 people have to even engage with any mechanics.

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Then why is it falling off while other similar games surge?

People tired of the same old same old... more skilled players being burnt out by progression systems designed to simply waste your time (last one I know did utterly massive damage to the "casual" mythic guilds that only cleared CE near the end of the tier) and a whole host of other issues.

WoW's competitors all find niches to fill while wow seems obsessed with time played metrics. I still hope wow doubles down on dungeons and raids as no other game has quite gotten there for me but if riot comes out swinging I imagine that would be the point I move on.

[NineSpine]

People tired of the same old same old... more skilled players being burnt out by progression systems designed to simply waste your time (last one I know did utterly massive damage to the "casual" mythic guilds that only cleared CE near the end of the tier) and a whole host of other issues.

WoW's competitors all find niches to fill while wow seems obsessed with time played metrics. I still hope wow doubles down on dungeons and raids as no other game has quite gotten there for me but if riot comes out swinging I imagine that would be the point I move on.

The fact that other games are doing well disproves the notion that the problem is broad cultural change among gamers.

It seems to me like the thing is that players want the same old. That's why they are going to a game that does the old stuff and doesn't do all the modern wow stuff.

[Soon-TM]

Its funny, that m+ group waitlists are full of dps, but when i try ti find a guild as healer or tank they all looking for dps players. Lol

Of course they are. I would never heal random groups, much less tank them - especially after seeing some of the comments ITT. When I was subbed, I tanked/healed for guild runs only, with VERY few exceptions (e.g. a guildie in a LFD group that needed a tank).

[Ealyssa]

What needs to change is the exact toxic attitude you are displaying, which is what leads to the "blame everyone else" negative atmosphere of the game that ultimately makes tanking and healing undesirable.

Just by your thin skinned reaction and direct attack of me, a tank player, instead of facing the mirror. I know you are a DPS player

[Berndorf]

Not necessarily. The better solution would be to ease the role of tank. Or make DPS more difficult. Outside of super high keys or guild groups the tank does basically 80% of the work in a dungeon and even has to prepare it (looking up routes).
Especially the last part should be abolished.
5 DPS would just mean that the tank has now 5 people to carry and the healer two more potential liabilities to heal.

Nothing you are saying there is really a valid point about why 5 dps would not work(which I'm not really advocating for either) but how does it matter whether a tank is doing his job as currently set forth with 5 people in the grp or 7? It doesn't really make any difference if that job is still the same.

[Soon-TM]

that job is still the same.

Babysitting 5 or 6 idiots is probably harder than babysitting 3.

[LordVargK]

Nothing you are saying there is really a valid point about why 5 dps would not work(which I'm not really advocating for either) but how does it matter whether a tank is doing his job as currently set forth with 5 people in the grp or 7? It doesn't really make any difference if that job is still the same.

That is why I said "not necessarily". It could help, but it would most likely not.
In general getting 5 decently skilled people is easier than 7. Also getting a leaver is more likely with 7 people.
And, if we think economically, the amount of tanks could actually drop if we allow 5 DDs:

Many players have a choice: Do I learn Tank or do I play DD? The more tanks are needed, the higher the "worth" of a tank is. So it's more likely that a player will choose to play as a Tank. Now, drop the number of groups (since you increase the number of players in a group) and the "worth" of being a tank drops as well. In economics, you would now see less players choosing to play tank, until a new equilibrium Tank<->DDs is formed.

Simply put: Why play a tank if you now have higher chances of getting a groups as a DD?

[Berndorf]

Babysitting 5 or 6 idiots is probably harder than babysitting 3.

Is every dungeon group really composed of nothing but idiots sans tank though?

[Miffinat0r]

The game would obviously be balanced around having 5 DPS. The math does not check out if the game expects a healer to heal 6 people from 10% to 100% in less than 5 seconds.

I don't want to hear any arguments on balance as so many people here are convinced that 36 specs is too much of a math problem to solve.

[Vampyrr]

Before modern autoqueue, you could assemble whatever team you wanted. In BC, the best *undergeared* dungeon comp was 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps, 1 offhealer that also dpsed. The best standard comp was 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps. If you overgeared the dungeon, you could just go 1 healer 4 dps. That was really a cool mechanic. Unfortunately, they locked roles in the autoqueue, destroying that and making everything 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps.

BC didnt use auto queue tho u formed manually you can do that now as well with the exact same process.

[Taifuu]

The lack of an auto-queue in BC also resulted in your reputation on the server having some sway. I remember playing a BM hunter and getting requests for runs all the time because I could be counted on to CC multiple mobs. I think that they should bring something like the Trials from WoD back for Mythic+s and then overtune it slightly before you are able to use the auto-queue to join up. Maybe that would cut down on the DPS queue as well since there would be (theoretically) less DPS in the queue over all.

[Soon-TM]

Is every dungeon group really composed of nothing but idiots sans tank though?

At the level of gameplay many people ITT seem to be referring, yes.

[Tyris Flare]

The fact that other games are doing well disproves the notion that the problem is broad cultural change among gamers.

It seems to me like the thing is that players want the same old. That's why they are going to a game that does the old stuff and doesn't do all the modern wow stuff.

There is no game that does "the old stuff." None of the major games right now - ESO, swtor, gw2, ff14 - are anything like wow circa 2004-2010. Back then there was no transmog (people who wanted it were often laughed at since selling cosmetics hadn't been normalized), no housing, no in-depth single player story experience with lots of voice overs (didn't truly happen until MoP).

I mean, people go on about how FF14 lets you get almost top gear without raiding (so does basically every other game). That's nothing at all like old school wow.

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We all know the current 5 man dungeons. We all know the extreme queue times as a DPS for random queue. We all know how incredibly fast your M+ group gets flooded with DPS applicants and you can choose your prime rib with too high itemlevel.

It's obvious why, the vast majority of gamers want to play DPS. Be it because being a healer is annoying where everyone blames you every time they die or you running out of mana, or as a tank you have to know the dungeon inside out and pull perfectly else you are a moron. It could also simply be because the vast majority of the specs in the game are DPS.

Overwatch 2 made a big change where they changed the game from being "2 tanks 2 healers 2 dps" to be "1 tank 2 healers 2 dps". People simply don't enjoy playing the main tank shielders like Reinhart or Orissa as much.

More DPS means better queue times for the role. It also is a better representation of a raid composition where the DPS to tank ratio is not 3 to 1.

Should WoW change to be maybe 1 tank 1 healer 5 DPS? What problems would that cause?

Won't work in wow, but I do think that other games who rushed to have 4 person parties made a big mistake for this same reason. SWTOR basically got rid of roles in most content because the queue was even worse (2 dps instead of 3).

Big raids are actually the most friendly to dps.

[Sucralose]

There is no game that does "the old stuff." None of the major games right now - ESO, swtor, gw2, ff14 - are anything like wow circa 2004-2010. Back then there was no transmog (people who wanted it were often laughed at since selling cosmetics hadn't been normalized), no housing, no in-depth single player story experience with lots of voice overs (didn't truly happen until MoP).

I mean, people go on about how FF14 lets you get almost top gear without raiding (so does basically every other game). That's nothing at all like old school wow.

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Won't work in wow, but I do think that other games who rushed to have 4 person parties made a big mistake for this same reason. SWTOR basically got rid of roles in most content because the queue was even worse (2 dps instead of 3).

Big raids are actually the most friendly to dps.

When you get to a certain age you want nothing more then to cross the river and return to the town you left long ago. When they try they find that it isn't the same river nor town. Some accept that have a sad chuckle and move on. Others lose themselves trying to desperately find that same river and that same town.

[Tyris Flare]

It really is a crazy phenomenon to behold in real time, how bitterness and age warp people's perceptions

[Kokolums]

BC didnt use auto queue tho u formed manually you can do that now as well with the exact same process.

no you cant really. people now expect autoqueue. and if you try to do something outside of 1-1-3 they will flee because the autoqueue has now conditioned them to just use 1-1-3.

[cparle87]

We all know the current 5 man dungeons. We all know the extreme queue times as a DPS for random queue. We all know how incredibly fast your M+ group gets flooded with DPS applicants and you can choose your prime rib with too high itemlevel.

It's obvious why, the vast majority of gamers want to play DPS. Be it because being a healer is annoying where everyone blames you every time they die or you running out of mana, or as a tank you have to know the dungeon inside out and pull perfectly else you are a moron. It could also simply be because the vast majority of the specs in the game are DPS.

Overwatch 2 made a big change where they changed the game from being "2 tanks 2 healers 2 dps" to be "1 tank 2 healers 2 dps". People simply don't enjoy playing the main tank shielders like Reinhart or Orissa as much.

More DPS means better queue times for the role. It also is a better representation of a raid composition where the DPS to tank ratio is not 3 to 1.

Should WoW change to be maybe 1 tank 1 healer 5 DPS? What problems would that cause?

FF14 goes the opposite way with only 2 dps per group.

[Cosmic Janitor]

At the level of gameplay many people ITT seem to be referring, yes.

At that level tanks and healers are just morons as everyone else.

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no you cant really. people now expect autoqueue. and if you try to do something outside of 1-1-3 they will flee because the autoqueue has now conditioned them to just use 1-1-3.

Bullshit, people always expected a normal party composition. The amount of people that ran fruity setups because they could were always negliable and most likely born of lack of other options. There was never a great movement to recruit offhealers and the groups that could get away with a lack of an actual tank were als few and far between or hinged entirely on havng a warrior with some hodge-podge talent setup or scuffed hybrids that were just enough; certainly when vanilla and tbc were current.