Seriously - Are People Actually Fine with SL's Vault System?

[mrgreenthump]

I think the vault is fine for raids, but not mythic+.

A raid takes like 2-3 hours to clear. 10 mythic+ are gonna take you north of 6 hours to get. Also, pugging is a nightmare in mythic+ cause one person leaving means a wasted run. A bad run can take upwards of 40m, etc.

So, as far as mythic+ goes, the vault is really not much better than the old weekly chest. Except we lost the bonus roll tokens too.

I do not want titanforges and the sort back. Just an adjustment on the number of mythic+ runs needed to fill the vault. I would go with 1, 2, 4.

It isn't as simple as that. Yes M+ effort is a long time investment, but you get a decent chance of a good mythic raiding ilevel quite easily. Raiding however, you have to find 19 other people that commit to progress for a quite a bit of time to get more than 3 bosses down in mythic at the start of a raid tier. This makes it is for a raider you main source of upgrades from the chest are from M+. Because you just heroic ilevel pieces from Raiding, or one mythic level piece and 2 heroic. It's a nightmare scenario for casual progress guilds. It's only the top ~100 guilds that don't suffer from this, they get 6 bosses on mythic down on first or 2nd week, then most their gear upgrades come from mythic raiding and they can do less M+, because there already is a good chance to get a really good item from raiding.

Ofc after 4-5 weeks, you simply don't care about the M+ side of the loot outside a few trinkets or a ring maybe, as you'll likely have a mythic ilevel weapon and the most powerful loot still come from raiding.

On farm at least I don't even do M+ most the time. Sure there might be one item that is a slight upgrade till I get the mythic item I need for that slot. But I've already cleared the raid and it really doesn't matter. I'd still probably do M+ if titanforging was a thing or if you could upgrade you M+ loot to mythic level as then I could target an upgrade, but I can't.. So I won't.

[arkanon]

It's not as if pugging raids is exactly a quaranteed success either. Compare like with like.

I have tried to explain this a few times - for some reason a few people present two vastly different scenarios:

Raid: Perfect group, found instantly, zero wipes, no leavers, no downtime, pro raiders, raid on farm, 2 hour run.

M+: First timers, 45mins per run, wipes, people leaving group, hard to find a group, etc etc.

But if you compare like for like, your mythic runs will be with the same group, zero downtime, zero wipes, pro M+ team, 20 min clears.

[mrgreenthump]

You'd put a cap in so you had to kill certain bosses at each level to enable the various upgrade levels, so no worries about LFR raiders upgrading their way into end-heroic ilevels. I'd also make valour more available - the ilevel caps stop people just upgrading willy-nilly anyway, so all being stingy with valour does is make gearing alts painful. But making alts painful seems to be a goal in itself sometimes.

I don't know if that would even be a problem. Even currently upgrading a +5 to rank 12 is going to take a quite some M+ to grind. And then start of the next tier the cap is back. Probably 750 a week again. Is it really a problem if an "LFR raider" manages to get 3-5 mythic ilevel pieces of gear after over a year of grinding 750 valor a week? Granted in 9.2.5 they'll likely remove the cap again, but again is that a problem? It would kill the mythic farm sure, but what about not removing the cap then? Or doubling it? Tripling it? There is a lot of things they could do to make this work and frankly seems like solid idea, so they won't.

[Loveliest]

I mind the vault only because I seem to have to run more dungeons, but that is on me and the vault itself is not a bad idea. Tbh, I mind the lack of titanforging more. In our hc only guild, that helped a lot and inconvenienced no one. Oh well.

[arkanon]

I mind the vault only because I seem to have to run more dungeons, but that is on me and the vault itself is not a bad idea. Tbh, I mind the lack of titanforging more. In our hc only guild, that helped a lot and inconvenienced no one. Oh well.

Did it inconvenience those who had bad luck with TF, and couldn't find a spot in the raid because someone who had good luck with TF had a higher ilvl?

The argument FOR tf is always the same "it allowed us to push beyond a barrier we reached in our raid group".

When it is pointed out that means you simply overpowered a boss you were not actually capable of defeating without boosted gear, its always the same "nono, tf only gave us the TINY edge we needed to defeat the boss, its not even that powerful!" ok, so that means you must have had multiple 1-2% wipes - this is something that can easily be defeated by improving as players, with practice, effort, and time.

Its always so powerful a few TF items allowed the entire raid to improve so much you defeated a boss you previously could not, but, its also so insignificant, its "totally not a big deal" and didnt give anyone an advantage over anyone and doesnt disadvantage anyone.

[Lolites]

why the hell shouldnt we be fine with it? its literaly just bonus item you get for activities you would already do...
and its MASSIVE improvement compared to m+ chest from bfa, with my only problem being its 1 item instead of two (m+ and pvp) we had before, but given there is higher chance it can actualy be useful thats not much of an issue

[Tyris Flare]

This is more of a question than a rant at this point, as I'm 9 months separated from the game as of writing this. This is also more in regards to how it pertains to M+ for the most part.

But are people really fine with how it currently is? I know people who exclusively play WoW can lose touch with fundamental design as they are sucked into its specific analytic/statistical design, and as they opt to no longer play other games since WoW demands such a heavy time investment, being what it is. I've seen little to no complaints regarding this, so I'm taking the default assumption that nobody in the WoW community cares or in fact actually likes the current setup.

Specifically, I'm talking about the fact that SL's Vault System massively changed how loot is rewarded in M+ dungeons from BfA to now. We went from a system where you could continuously run M+ dungeons for chance at great loot due to Titanforging and M+ loot being competitive to raid loot, to the current system that we have, where running M+ solely exists to add another slot to your Great Vault for increased loot choice quality.

My main issue with this is that I really like killing monsters and watching them drop quality loot. Currently, this is no longer possible with M+ as the mode does not reward competitive loot, but only serves a function of being an aggregator for your Vault rewards.

I would personally like to go back to enjoying seeing competitive loot drop in the dungeons themselves. Removing or redesigning the Vault System, however you go about it is required.

Playing the game for lottery tickets is just fundamentally unsatisfying.

Even playing for titanforges in a dungeon (also a lotto) felt better because at least you had the fundamental loop of kill boss -> get stuff.

Being able to farm and then upgrade gear would be much better, imo.

(It does seem to work a little better for the raid, but it is pretty bad for m+ in particular. I can't comment on pvp)

[mrgreenthump]

The argument FOR tf is always the same "it allowed us to push beyond a barrier we reached in our raid group".

And here I was thinking the argument for TF was that there was something for you to achieve even on farm. As without it like currently if you care about loot, there is 0 reason to raid after you and your team have full mythic gear. Granted not having to raid is kinda nice, don't actually have to play this game between raids and suffer.

Frankly TF could've stayed with a few improvements, like limiting it to max 15 or 25 ilevels and letting us rank up non-tf gear to tf ranks like in Throne of Thunder for example.

[Mysterymask]

It isn't overly offensive... that isn't to say I like it. It just seems so minor compared to everything else.

And this describes MMO Champion to a tee

How dare people find something inoffensive when obviously it's worse than the 3rd Reich and cancer combined

[mrgreenthump]

Playing the game for lottery tickets is just fundamentally unsatisfying.

Being able to farm and then upgrade gear would be much better, imo.

Yup, it would indeed be nice. Or maybe a combination, skip ranking up if you are lucky, but let us work for our gear with a goal and end in sight. Ends up being much more satisfying being able to say you completed it. Rather than run the wheel till next raid tier never actually getting all the gear you want at the item level you want

[darklogrus]

People are fine with it because they could do M+ at the LFR difficulty and get ilvl gear equivalent to Mythic Raids. Match the reward with the Key and youd see a far quicker decline in the amount of runs.

As for Raids, I don't see upgrades coming from the Vault, usually it matches the weeks or the previous weeks drops. In the end its something that gives me the Raid TMOG set quicker instead of giving me the tools to beat a raid quicker.

[Armael]

It's definitely better than previous iterations, where you got 1 piece at random period. At least you get to pick from a pool of loot.

[Lolites]

People are fine with it because they could do M+ at the LFR difficulty and get ilvl gear equivalent to Mythic Raids. Match the reward with the Key and youd see a far quicker decline in the amount of runs.

except reward IS matched with the keys you ran, you have to run +15s to get the "low" part of mythic raid gear, and no matter what M+ you do you cant get the "better" (from last 2 bosses) mythic raid gear from M+ part of the vault...
have you even played the game? seems like you only seen GV on picture and didnt quite understood it...

[glowpipe]

We had 1 chest with 1 random choice per week, regardless of how little or how much content you did. It only counted for 1 activity.

Now you have a chest that give you up to 3 choices, PER activity you do, and it rewards you for doing more content. It severely limits duplicates or wank items as you have mor choices. There is nothing wrong with the new vault and its 100 times better than the previous one.

Is the entire system good? thats another question. I would much rather have valor/conquest points

[LordVargK]

It's a major improvement over the weekly chest we got in Legion and BfA.

[arkanon]

And here I was thinking the argument for TF was that there was something for you to achieve even on farm. As without it like currently if you care about loot, there is 0 reason to raid after you and your team have full mythic gear. Granted not having to raid is kinda nice, don't actually have to play this game between raids and suffer.

Frankly TF could've stayed with a few improvements, like limiting it to max 15 or 25 ilevels and letting us rank up non-tf gear to tf ranks like in Throne of Thunder for example.

TF and the upgrade system from previous expansions are totally different though. You present it like its similar - 6 to one, half a dozen to the other. But they are completely different. I dont know a single mythic raider who has raided farm content on their main for TF. Ever. Yes, im sure you will say "me and every single mythic raider i ever have known only raid at all for TF!!!!" but frankly, i simply dont believe that.

[Sevyvia]

The fact that I don't think about it means that it's way better than the chest (and, god forbid, the *-forge systems) of the past. So yes, I'm Actually Fine with SL's Vault System.

[Rucati]

Didn't even realize there were people that didn't like this system. It's a massive improvement over the previous vaults.

Sure, you can't gear up in m+ as effectively, but that's good. In BFA you could hit level 120 and then be literally full geared in a single night of chaining +15s. I had everything but DK leveled up and I geared everything other than my main in a single night.

It's convenient, sure, and as someone who cares more about pushing high m+ or doing arenas it was fine, but if you play this game in the hopes of continually progressing your character (you know, like how most MMO players play) then being able to finish a character in a single night kind of defeats the purpose.

Not to mention m+ in BFA made everything else entirely irrelevant, depending on RNG you might have to raid for weeks to get full gear, but even with terrible RNG you could get full gear in max two nights of doing m+15s, so there was virtually no reason to ever do anything other than m+ for gear. It's really dumb for one gear path to be that much better than the others, because it truly wasn't even close and that's pretty bad design as it more or less forces people into m+ to gear up.

[epigramx]

solution: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2613029

[Tziva]

I greatly like the design of the system where you can unlock multiple options through a lot of different content to fill in gear holes, but I think the ilvl of the slots could use some re-evaluation. The chosen ilvls don't seem ideal, relative to the content or to each other.