Should WoW adopt a tougher stance on Toxicity in-game?

[Aucald]

Let's drop the rolling back-and-forth about rape threats and what have you, and return the conversation to discussing the generalties of in-game toxicity or toxic behavior without dwelling on the most egregious examples.

[Relapses]

What happened to you and your family is terrible. I hope that person gets caught and locked in prison for a long time. That kind of toxicity we can all agree is beyond the limit. I can't speak for the person you have been replying to but I am curious what you think of this situation: two people in the game encounter each other; one brings up a hot political or social issue and declares his/her opinion on it; the other person declares a counter-opinion on it; the two engage in argument for a while; the argument ends with the first person reporting the second person for "toxicity" and classifies that person with numerous adjectives ending in -ist. Neither person threatened the other in the argument, though they both made ad hominem attacks. The second person is banned for two weeks by a GM and the reason given is "toxicity". Is this an example of actual toxicity? If so, is the punishment correct? Curious what your thoughts are.

Random unsolicited third party perspective here: Personally, I don't think we should be wasting a real human being's time with this kind of tribal(ist) nonsense. A better solution would be a list of topics which are simply off limits for in-game discussion, that way if a human being does have to look at it, both parties can be equally punished if they're engaging in a discussion which they know is outside the bounds of acceptable discourse. I realize this is pretty much an argument in favor of the status-quo but I guess I'm one of a rare breed of people who won't instantly report somebody because they let fly a few gamer words in a heated moment.

[NineSpine]

What happened to you and your family is terrible. I hope that person gets caught and locked in prison for a long time. That kind of toxicity we can all agree is beyond the limit.

Thank you. Unfortunately, we don't all agree, as sucralose is making the argument that that behavior should be acceptable.

I can't speak for the person you have been replying to but I am curious what you think of this situation: two people in the game encounter each other; one brings up a hot political or social issue and declares his/her opinion on it; the other person declares a counter-opinion on it; the two engage in argument for a while; the argument ends with the first person reporting the second person for "toxicity" and classifies that person with numerous adjectives ending in -ist. Neither person threatened the other in the argument, though they both made ad hominem attacks. The second person is banned for two weeks by a GM and the reason given is "toxicity". Is this an example of actual toxicity? If so, is the punishment correct? Curious what your thoughts are.

There is a lot buried in the details there, making it impossible to make a clear judgement. It's fairly easy for something to extend beyond a "hot political take". What was the take? Was it "It doesn't count as assault if you are married"? That was the law until the 80s in a lot of the US, and some people still think that. I'd call that toxic. Was it "We should round up all the Muslims and put them in camps"? A lot of people think that too. That's pretty toxic. Was it "I want a flat tax"? That isn't toxic.

So, without the details there isn't any way at all to make a judgement, and I think that's kind of the point of your vagueness, isn't it? But in reality, the situation will never be vague. The GM would have a chat log. The interaction would be clear.

[Krawu]

As I explained earlier, the person who threatened by wife ended up finding her on social media and sending her pictures of dead animals alongside the address of our daughters' school. That is the behavior being addressed here. That is what he is defending, specifically.

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What horrible consequences have taken place because they kick you out of six flags for violently threatening children? Can you actually explain the horrible, unintended side effects that have happened in the last couple of decades that that has been the policy there?

If someone is threatening you or your family IRL that's something you should contact the police over, not demand the online gaming space be made more restrictive for everyone else. There's already mechanisms in place to deal with that shit, and that's not what I'm defending here.

I'm talking about some random anon being toxic in throwaway comments to another anon. Context matters, and in that context I outlined I don't want any restrictions from Blizzard. Toxicity is the spice that makes online gaming delicious and fun.
Wow already has a profanity filter. Use it if you want.

Also, stop hiding behind children in every one of your posts. Half those threats are probably made by other children.

[kaminaris]

If someone is threatening you or your family IRL that's something you should contact the police over, not demand the online gaming space be made more restrictive for everyone else. There's already mechanisms in place to deal with that shit, and that's not what I'm defending here.

I'm talking about some random anon being toxic in throwaway comments to another anon. Context matters, and in that context I outlined I don't want any restrictions from Blizzard. Toxicity is the spice that makes online gaming delicious and fun.
Wow already has a profanity filter. Use it if you want.

Also, stop hiding behind children in every one of your posts. Half those threats are probably made by other children.

Holy... what kind of assbackwards logic is that, of course he should demand public online gaming space be more restrictive for everyone else, because it makes it BETTER for everyone else.

The whole problem is that those "mechanisms in place to deal with that shit" just doesn't work, in case you didn't notice for past 10+ years.

You want to be toxic? Make your private space and be toxic there.

[Relapses]

Holy... what kind of assbackwards logic is that, of course he should demand public online gaming space be more restrictive for everyone else, because it makes it BETTER for everyone else.

The whole problem is that those "mechanisms in place to deal with that shit" just doesn't work, in case you didn't notice for past 10+ years.

You want to be toxic? Make your private space and be toxic there.

It sounds like you just want a system like FF's where you get banned for telling people they bricked something by being bad at the game. That's not toxicity. It's honesty.

[kaminaris]

It sounds like you just want a system like FF's where you get banned for telling people they bricked something by being bad at the game. That's not toxicity. It's honesty.

Sounds like you have no idea how FF system works then because you won't get banned for telling people they skill is lacking, you will get banned for being toxic.

[cparle87]

It is literally a cartoon game rated for 12 year olds.

You are literally defending rape threats and online stalking as specific behaviors that should not result in bans.

So spare me.

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Not having the courage or character to make the fairly mundane assessment that threatening to rape children should not be allowed does not make you look as strong as you seem to think it does.

Actually it's rated T for Teen and it says right under that "online content unrated."

As for the rest, you're the one who's somehow made the mental leap from "you shouldn't be mad at other people's words" to "the guy I'm arguing with supports child rape."

[Relapses]

Sounds like you have no idea how FF system works then because you won't get banned for telling people they skill is lacking, you will get banned for being toxic.

Well seeing as a simple DPS meter in FF is considered a breach of the code of conduct, I can't imagine the threshold for toxicity is very high.

[NineSpine]

If someone is threatening you or your family IRL that's something you should contact the police over, not demand the online gaming space be made more restrictive for everyone else. There's already mechanisms in place to deal with that shit, and that's not what I'm defending here.

Would you say that about any other space? If a restaurant said "Not our problem, call the cops, we refuse to ask him to leave" would you respect that establishment?

I'm talking about some random anon being toxic in throwaway comments to another anon. Context matters, and in that context I outlined I don't want any restrictions from Blizzard. Toxicity is the spice that makes online gaming delicious and fun.
Wow already has a profanity filter. Use it if you want.

Also, stop hiding behind children in every one of your posts. Half those threats are probably made by other children.

The game is rated for 12 year olds. As much as you may want to believe that wow, the game full of cartoon talking cow ladies, was made for a super mature audience, the fact is that it is advertised and rated for 12 and up. So, any behavior that you make excuses for in the game is assumed to be potentially directed at a 12 year old.

The bottom line is that if a behavior would not be acceptable if directed at a 12 year old irl, it shouldn't be acceptable in game.

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Actually it's rated T for Teen and it says right under that "online content unrated."

As for the rest, you're the one who's somehow made the mental leap from "you shouldn't be mad at other people's words" to "the guy I'm arguing with supports child rape."

The guy I was arguing with actually quite explicitly said that rape threats regarding children are not over the line for him.

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Well seeing as a simple DPS meter in FF is considered a breach of the code of conduct, I can't imagine the threshold for toxicity is very high.

Yet nobody can ever point to a story of one person unfairly banned.

[Relapses]

Yet nobody can ever point to a story of one person unfairly banned.

I've heard stories of people being banned for admitting they're using a DPS meter when using that DPS meter to point out somebody is underperforming. (They weren't banned for the action of calling somebody out but rather the admission of using a DPS meter.) I mean, I guess that's not the same as general toxicity but I don't think it's a huge jump to say that FFXIV players are generally discouraged from commenting on each other's performance (especially if that feedback is negative in nature). Different strokes but personally I'd prefer if such a doctrine were not implemented into WoW's code of conduct.

[Beet]

Hell no they shouldn’t. If anything they need to look to the past with how to act. Stop over policing things. Let the community take care of itself. The more they change the worse the game and the community gets. It’s now where the current team shouldn’t be proud at all for what they’ve accomplished because they’ve successfully taken a top company and destroyed its games. I hope to god Microsoft cleans house and replaces them asap. The current team can’t do anything right.

[Krawu]

Holy... what kind of assbackwards logic is that, of course he should demand public online gaming space be more restrictive for everyone else, because it makes it BETTER for everyone else.

So you admit that you're a proud authoritarian. Just gonna agree to disagree then.

Would you say that about any other space? If a restaurant said "Not our problem, call the cops, we refuse to ask him to leave" would you respect that establishment?

The online space is wholly different from IRL ones. In a restaurant where people are gathered and sharing the same physical space threats CAN ring very different, because someone can simply walk over and punch you in the face.
If someone says shit online it takes a LOT more effort to follow up on it, and usually involves you voluntarily making identifying information available to them. Also, you can simply block them.
And as mentioned before, if someone actually does the shit you described it's probably still some 16-year-old getting off on scaring you, but do do have legal recourse at that point.

If some stranger in a restaurant tells me they're gonna kill me I'll let staff know and possibly call police as well.
If someone does the same online, I'll laugh at them and call them an idiot back.

"Online" isn't a real place.
I just fail to grasp how someone with such a thin skin can even function as an adult in the real world.

[NineSpine]

I've heard stories of people being banned for admitting they're using a DPS meter when using that DPS meter to point out somebody is underperforming. (They weren't banned for the action of calling somebody out but rather the admission of using a DPS meter.) I mean, I guess that's not the same as general toxicity but I don't think it's a huge jump to say that FFXIV players are generally discouraged from commenting on each other's performance (especially if that feedback is negative in nature). Different strokes but personally I'd prefer if such a doctrine were not implemented into WoW's code of conduct.

I've never had any issues commenting on anyone's performance, nor have I ever spoken to anyone who was banned for using a DPS meter. Nearly every streamer uses one openly and never gets banned.

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So you admit that you're a proud authoritarian. Just gonna agree to disagree then.

Yes, like so many authoritarians I think people who call children the n word should be asked to leave.

When you call something like that "authoritarian", you aren't demonstrating that you are some brave advocate for free speech. You are just demonstrating that you are a whiner who doesn't like the responsibility that comes with freedoms. This is a toddler's idea of freedom, like gorging on ice cream and then blaming your parents for why you feel sick.

[Amarys]

There is much Blizzard needs to take up from the bucket and re-examine for future handling.

Tougher handling on toxicity.
Stricter handling on botting.
Extreme handling on reoccurring rulebreakers.

They have been too strict on the minor things, and lax on the severe areas.

Nope.. "toxicity" isn't a thing and is easily solved by a working ignore button, or if it's straight up illegal stuff, get the authorities involved.

However botting, advertising etc. hell yes. This sort of stuff ruins the game for everyone and just ignoring them won't help.

[NineSpine]

Nope.. "toxicity" isn't a thing and is easily solved by a working ignore button, or if it's straight up illegal stuff, get the authorities involved.

However botting, advertising etc. hell yes. This sort of stuff ruins the game for everyone and just ignoring them won't help.

I just find it hilarious that you think advertising is over the line but calling a 12 year old the n word isn't worth banning someone for.

[Amarys]

I just find it hilarious that you think advertising is over the line but calling a 12 year old the n word isn't worth banning someone for.

Well you can just ignore them? Problem solved.. but advertisers use bots to spam and if ignored, they will lure people over to their sites, either to scam them or sell ingame goods for real money. This problem will then just grow and grow.

[Relapses]

I've never had any issues commenting on anyone's performance, nor have I ever spoken to anyone who was banned for using a DPS meter. Nearly every streamer uses one openly and never gets banned.

I looked into it a bit more and I misremembered the situation. I'll edit my post accordingly. A player was banned for using the information from the DPS to harass another player. Harassment obviously isn't okay but I'd also find it weirdly Draconian if WoW players were suddenly held to the same standard that FFXIV uses to determine toxicity. There's a line between what some people might claim harassment and what others may just see as a dude providing information in a manner that's less-than-couth. If we start trying to define where that line is, it starts to feel an awful lot like censorship. Just my 2c.

[NineSpine]

The online space is wholly different from IRL ones. In a restaurant where people are gathered and sharing the same physical space threats CAN ring very different, because someone can simply walk over and punch you in the face.
If someone says shit online it takes a LOT more effort to follow up on it, and usually involves you voluntarily making identifying information available to them. Also, you can simply block them.
And as mentioned before, if someone actually does the shit you described it's probably still some 16-year-old getting off on scaring you, but do do have legal recourse at that point.

If some stranger in a restaurant tells me they're gonna kill me I'll let staff know and possibly call police as well.
If someone does the same online, I'll laugh at them and call them an idiot back.

"Online" isn't a real place.
I just fail to grasp how someone with such a thin skin can even function as an adult in the real world.

The distinction you are making doesn't exist. It's a fantasy you and other terminally online people erected in your heads. The internet is the real world just as much as a restaurant is. The internet isn't magic. It isn't another dimension.

If I write you a letter threatening you, does that also not apply because I'm not physically present? This is childish.

A common tactic by online abusers is to find young girls online and use threats against them to get them to send them nude photos, and then they threaten them with exposure if they don't keep doing it. But in your sicko world, that doesn't count because it is online, so how dare we arrest these fine, upstanding gentlemen who were just messing around online. After all, threats online don't count, right?

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I looked into it a bit more and I misremembered the situation. I'll edit my post accordingly. A player was banned for using the information from the DPS to harass another player. Harassment obviously isn't okay but I'd also find it weirdly Draconian if WoW players were suddenly held to the same standard that FFXIV uses to determine toxicity. There's a line between what some people might claim harassment and what others may just see as a dude providing information in a manner that's less-than-couth. If we start trying to define where that line is, it starts to feel an awful lot like censorship. Just my 2c.

There is already censorship. Go to the wow forums and start posting links to porn. You'll get banned real quick. All private spaces are censored. Surely you ask people to leave your house if their behavior reached a certain point you don't want to tolerate.

[Relapses]

There is already censorship. Go to the wow forums and start posting links to porn. You'll get banned real quick. All private spaces are censored. Surely you ask people to leave your house if their behavior reached a certain point you don't want to tolerate.

Again, this goes back to a notion I touched on last page. I hear what you're saying and I agree with it on a salient level -- the problem lies in that an individual's tolerance for rude behavior is likely going to vary. When we try to qualify that level of tolerance by putting a person in charge of determining what is or isn't considered tolerable behavior, we're actively pushing the community in a direction where certain aspects of behavior are less likely to be discussed openly for fear of potential retribution. It'd be an incredibly tight rope for Blizzard to walk should they want to go down this road but as I said I feel the resources used to have a pair of human eyes make these kinds of determinations would be best used elsewhere.