Have you noticed how many people hate the very game they play?

[Kokolums]

Yes what you said has been said a zillion times on this forum. And as i've said a zillion times, its like sports fans. When the new season starts, they are excited. Then the team starts losing a lot, and fans complain and are mad but still watch. People say "why do you watch if you hate it?" that misses the point. they are going thru phases of grief in a way. The next phase after complaining a lot is to stop paying attention.

Lots of video games have died the same way. wow is no different. what were experiencing now is no different than how most popular games die. the playerbase keeps shrinking, and the people that remain are defiant until the bitter end, constantly attacking people who complain. you are no different.

[epigramx]

It gets used more and more often, but "I love the game, I just want it to be great!" is a bit of a cheap deflection with regards to OP's point and the larger conversation. Having liked some previous iteration of the game--potentially an iteration that hasn't existed for more than a decade at this point--doesn't mean you don't currently hate the game, and so also doesn't mean you're not actively choosing to play a game you hate and complaining about how much you hate it.

Likewise, "I care about the game" is something close to virtue signaling, what you care about isn't "the game" but rather your enjoyment of the game, that is, whether it appeals directly to you; which is fine or even to be expected really, but it sounds a lot nicer and more altruistic to claim it's about "care for the game" than "what you want. It becomes pretty obvious this is the case when many of the people using the phrase "care about the game" are also the same people who will shit talk anyone enjoying modern iterations of it.

Which isn't to say that there isn't valid criticism (nor did I say this anywhere) but merely to point out that these two sorts of phrases are very often, or even most often, just used to attempt to pass off someone actively choosing to do something they don't like and then complaining about having done it as some sort of noble suffering for the greater good.

At some point you have to take some personal responsibility and realize that spending 10 years playing a game you don't enjoy playing (regardless of it you enjoyed it 15 years ago) is a pretty dumb thing to do--and that obsessing over it not being something you enjoy anymore for years, or even worse, getting angry that other people still enjoy playing it is, at best, immature, and at worst seriously unhealthy.

People really need to learn to let go and find something else the do enjoy.

Yeah I don't think this has anything to do with Shadowlands or any concept of "bad expansion". These are core issues that are in reality tied to the ability of the game to facilitate addiction.

People are often caught trapped in the treadmills of the various grindings of this game and they know they hate them but they feel they can't escape so they keep saying "I want it gone".

- - - Updated - - -

it's sorta like an addiction; sometimes taking a break is good. also I would daresay that while a lot of people might hate aspects of the game (story, raids, timegating or whatever) and will complain vehemently about them on the forums they still enjoy other things like mount collecting, transmog, pet battles, pvp, or other things. they might complain about timegating but will return when everything is open - like waiting for all the LFR wings to open before subbing, or waiting til all the questline is available for example

It's not sort of like an addiction: it's the core of this whole thing, because this is about people who feel they hate something and at the same time they keep doing it so this has clearly the cognitive dissonance characteristics of a common addiction.

The devs won't help improve that and they never tried to since vanilla because they produce revenue by keeping players into various treadmills that can never be completed by a single human.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Why do you spend so much energy analysing this? It's so exhausting. Sometimes I hate the game, sometimes I don't. I just avoid the content I hate or take a break from the game as a whole.

[epigramx]

Why do you spend so much energy analysing this? It's so exhausting. Sometimes I hate the game, sometimes I don't. I just avoid the content I hate or take a break from the game as a whole.

It's interesting to see why people get addicted into this vicious cycle of love and hate. I believe the most likely cause starts from people simply wanting a sense that they WON in the game because that's basically what most people need from gaming: the fun feeling of knowing they won at something they do so their miserable life has some fun by having a win for a change.

Because of that need: they fall into the trap of wanting to keep on the treadmills of the game which are practically never-ending (because a single human can never complete this game in total) so this game is filled to the brim with people trapped.

[Arai]

I can speak for myself why I post/whine/criticise on the official Forums. I love Warcraft the characters, the races, the art style, the music. The combat is awesome and there is also sunk cost obviously.
But I absolutely disgust systems like M+ timer, arbitrary restrictions, and the low amount of content that's in. I cleared 11/11 NM solo with PuGs as a raidlead. 10/11 twice now and there is basically nothing really left. We don't even wanna talk about PvP that mode basically doesn't exist its so bad.

They need to implement a 2nd raid tier every x.x.5 thats meant for 10m raid size or full flex for Mythic. I already played 1+ year in BfA afk just farming transmog. Time is up blizzard, improve your game. Make reasonable solo content to progress and each patch needs something like a Mage Tower you can progress through for good transmog like the Artifact weapons. And it gets easier with gear to a certain level (NM/HC) so you have a reason to gear up.

I mean common look at this game. There is 1 raid tier now for 1+ year. And the same old boring M+ thats just a ground for growing toxicity. They didn't even bother with a new Dungeon in 9.2. Professions dead as well so nothing to do there. Sorry but at best this game is a free to play MMO but definitely not 13€ a month.
Thats why I resubbed for 1 month and will quit now again, after I already paused from early 2021 till last month. I did everything I wanted. I cleared the raid, got a few new transmogs from other content and that's it.
Tried M+ and its worse than ever before in terms of toxicity and tuning.

The treadmill of completely gearing up every patch is OLD. You ask yourself why do it? You need an underlying goal for why you gear up. Back in Legion it was the Mage Tower with its transmog that got easier with more gear and gave you good looking unqiue transmogs that will last forever. Of course a mistake is that you could basically wait till 7.3 to make it the easiest so that should be fixed. But there needs a proper everlasting reward every patch you can work towards or else the wheel of farming and refarming is pointless and dead.

[epigramx]

I can speak for myself why I post/whine/criticise on the official Forums. I love Warcraft the characters, the races, the art style, the music. The combat is awesome and there is also sunk cost obviously.
But I absolutely disgust systems like M+ timer, arbitrary restrictions, and the low amount of content that's in. I cleared 11/11 NM solo with PuGs as a raidlead. 10/11 twice now and there is basically nothing really left. We don't even wanna talk about PvP that mode basically doesn't exist its so bad.

They need to implement a 2nd raid tier every x.x.5 thats meant for 10m raid size or full flex for Mythic. I already played 1+ year in BfA afk just farming transmog. Time is up blizzard, improve your game. Make reasonable solo content to progress and each patch needs something like a Mage Tower you can progress through for good transmog like the Artifact weapons. And it gets easier with gear to a certain level (NM/HC) so you have a reason to gear up.

I mean common look at this game. There is 1 raid tier now for 1+ year. And the same old boring M+ thats just a ground for growing toxicity. They didn't even bother with a new Dungeon in 9.2. Professions dead as well so nothing to do there. Sorry but at best this game is a free to play MMO but definitely not 13€ a month.
Thats why I resubbed for 1 month and will quit now again, after I already paused from early 2021 till last month. I did everything I wanted. I cleared the raid, got a few new transmogs from other content and that's it.
Tried M+ and its worse than ever before in terms of toxicity and tuning.

They can't do m+ without the timer. It would produce an environment of being able to do 10 levels higher but you would have to spend 8 hours into the instance in order to get a world record and people would want to do that and everyone would hate it if they care about the ranking.

This discussion is more related to the question: "why do you do it if you hate it?".

[Arai]

They can't do m+ without the timer. It would produce an environment of being able to do 10 levels higher but you would have to spend 8 hours into the instance in order to get a world record and people would want to do that and everyone would hate it if they care about the ranking.

This discussion is more related to the question: "why do you do it if you hate it?".

Who cares if you do a 25 key or even 35 key that takes 8h? If you wanna do that so let them? It doesn't reward gear and is only prestige. You obviously can still rank it by timers. We are talking about <=15 keys. The current system is garbage period and needs to change. And if a group decides to take 8h to clear a 15 for gear so let them. Its not like they suddenly have full gear sets after that key. Quite the contrary. We already have massive boosting in the game where you can get 100x faster gear by not playing the game.

Fact is that M+ (pugging) is the epitome of toxicity and frustration. Sure if you only join other keys the worst thing is you wasted the time inside the key. That implies though that you get invited ... which doesn't happen for 10-15 keys if you are a subpar class/spec and don't fit the rating requirement. I wouldn't mind taking more inexperienced people with me since they are far less toxic and don't just leave keys like most elitist high rating people are. But you can't as you just won't time the key and its depleted and dead.

Sorry but the game is made for the few elitists hardcore players currently and that needs to change or the game will be even more dead in 10.x. And no most people do NOT have multiple of friends on their skill level that also have the frequent time to play with each other. Guilds are the same. Most people don't wanna bother with getting into a guild with steady times etc. We are in 2022 not 2006.
But im sure Ion won't change anything he lives in his bubble and thinks everything is ok sine he is able to do his Mythic raid. A hardcore elitist is the worst that could have happened to WoW being a Director.

[epigramx]

Who cares if you do a 25 key or even 35 key that takes 8h? If you wanna do that so let them? It doesn't reward gear and is only prestige. You obviously can still rank it by timers. We are talking about <=15 keys. The current system is garbage period and needs to change. And if a group decides to take 8h to clear a 15 for gear so let them. Its not like they suddenly have full gear sets after that key. Quite the contrary. We already have massive boosting in the game where you can get 100x faster gear by not playing the game.

Who cares you ask? Everyone who ever does anything above level 15.

M+ is mainly about showing off score above max level of vault gear.

[Mendzia]

The only thing that irks me are the proud ex-WoW players who lurk on fan forums for the opportunity to shit all over active subscribers for enjoying any aspect of this video game. Like, we get it. Shadowlands sucks. Can we move on, please?

There is a reason 'i shit over active players' because they are big part of the game and it's horrible state:

They are willing to pay hundreds of $$ for store mounts and saying 'my money is not your business' or 'in-game cash shop does not affect you'...
... so Blizzard do not need to make good content anymore since a few % of players are making them more money than several 'normal' game subscribers.

[Asrialol]

I get the impression that people think a subscription is something sacred. As if it means something whether you renew it or cancel it - like it's a big deal. So much that some people even feels it requires a "I quit" thread. Baffeling.

Personally I don't care much for the "state of the game". I have friends that I enjoy playing with, sometimes we play other games as well of course. If my friends quit or take a break, I do the same. Easy as that.

[epigramx]

There is a reason 'i shit over active players' because they are big part of the game and it's horrible state:

They are willing to pay hundreds of $$ for store mounts and saying 'my money is not your business' or 'in-game cash shop does not affect you'...
... so Blizzard do not need to make good content anymore since a few % of players are making them more money than several 'normal' game subscribers.

There's some nuance here I'd like to mention. A lot of those store products are purchased with gold in practice because a lot of gold makers in this game which I happen to know of personally online: make hundreds of millions of gold (literally) so they practically buy almost everything the store has to offer without giving their own money.

That means in turn that a lot of income comes to Blizzard for adding gold sinks in this game because that can push people with no gold to purchase tokens with cash so whenever you see anything in the game that needs a lot of gold (e.g. bruto or leggos that require an expensive vendor item or a bag for millions) be very suspicious.

[Garymorilix]

I keep reading:

1. "I can't wait for the tier set protection system", " I can't wait for double leggo", "I can't wait for when it's easy" (in general)

2. "Phew we're done with this tier", "it was so painful", "I'm not pulling this boss again!".

3. "that was a much needed vacation from the game"

maybe you don't want to play.

They don't play already.

95% of people that non-stop shit on the game and complain don't actually play it at all.
This is the wierdest fucking subset of players to be honest. I notice it with my friends too.

Those that used to play WoW but don't anymore have this uncontrollable urge to talk shit about it non-stop to players who do play it.
Or to just pat each other on the back about how "shit the game is yo bruv".
You don't see this with other games, I reckon because other games lack the reputation to matter.

It is what it is, their opinion don't matter anyway.
Actual players can discuss the game while they are playing it together.

[darklogrus]

Who cares you ask? Everyone who ever does anything above level 15.

M+ is mainly about showing off score above max level of vault gear.

Heh, If Blizzard made the vault follow the same route as Raiding, the number of people in Keys would have flat lined back in season 1. The only reason people ran keys is because it was far easier to get max mythic gear then it was to actually end up in a Mythic raid downing bosses for the vast majority..

[epigramx]

They don't play already.

95% of people that non-stop shit on the game and complain don't actually play it at all.
This is the wierdest fucking subset of players to be honest. I notice it with my friends too.

Those that used to play WoW but don't anymore have this uncontrollable urge to talk shit about it non-stop to players who do play it.
Or to just pat each other on the back about how "shit the game is yo bruv".
You don't see this with other games, I reckon because other games lack the reputation to matter.

It is what it is, their opinion don't matter anyway.
Actual players can discuss the game while they are playing it together.

Those are statements I hear from subscribers, in-game, when they are active in a raiding guild.

[Blackmist]

Yeah, I noticed. That's why I stopped.

[Rageonit]

Have you ever considered that the vast majority of those people actual want the game to be really good because they once loved the game, and they want it to be that good again?

It's like staying in a toxic relationship, because once upon a time it was fun. Everyone will tell you it's not good for your health and it won't change for the better. Do yourself a favor, break up and find new love.
EDIT: Oh, and don't be tempted to try again when a year later she tells you she has changed and this time it will be great. She's lying, and it won't.

[epigramx]

Heh, If Blizzard made the vault follow the same route as Raiding, the number of people in Keys would have flat lined back in season 1. The only reason people ran keys is because it was far easier to get max mythic gear then it was to actually end up in a Mythic raid downing bosses for the vast majority..

Yes it would have flatlined, and I think m+ is overrated because with only 5 people in the gametype: it's easy to create extreme metas of a handful of specs (20man has metas but they will never exclude as many as a small gametype).

At the same time: some people enjoy competing for score so you would lose them.

[Arai]

Who cares you ask? Everyone who ever does anything above level 15.

M+ is mainly about showing off score above max level of vault gear.

I already said that a timer for those who care about rankings can stay but not for gearing purposes.

Imagine Raid bosses dropped less gear cause you didn't kill them fast enough. And no enrage is almost never an issue except for the top10 Mythic guilds that push for World First. And even there it doesn't matter as much as people just playing mechanics clean. And if you fail you try again and not deplete your "raid key".

[Skildar]

I would gladly ignore all the pessimists and haters if they weren't so vocal on mainstream plateforms (i.e. : youtube, twitch) and it's hurting the game more than it is helping the dev improving their product.

Especially when most of the criticism is from fans that don't even listen to the npc or do the quests but complain about not knowing this or that character, etc.

People shit on borrowed power, but personnally what I'm a bit sad is that it removes conversation on what these bring that should be iterated on or kept instead, etc.
The borrowed power dynamic has beought some extremely welcome gameplay changes and I'm finding it very healthy for the game's longevity. I would have been delighted to see azerite armor change the way gear is designed.

The negativity we currently have is toxic as it hinders conversations and evolution of the game. We need some healthy negativity to pinpoint what are the game's weakness not

[epigramx]

I already said that a timer for those who care about rankings can stay but not for gearing purposes.

Imagine Raid bosses dropped less gear cause you didn't kill them fast enough.

I don't know if you miss something about how it already works, because that feature is already in the game.

If you fail a 15-level key: you still get the same gear if you won in the vault so you don't need a change.

- - - Updated - - -

I would gladly ignore all the pessimists and haters if they weren't so vocal on mainstream plateforms (i.e. : youtube, twitch) and it's hurting the game more than it is helping the dev improving their product.

Especially when most of the criticism is from fans that don't even listen to the npc or do the quests but complain about not knowing this or that character, etc.

People shit on borrowed power, but personnally what I'm a bit sad is that it removes conversation on what these bring that should be iterated on or kept instead, etc.
The borrowed power dynamic has beought some extremely welcome gameplay changes and I'm finding it very healthy for the game's longevity. I would have been delighted to see azerite armor change the way gear is designed.

The negativity we currently have is toxic as it hinders conversations and evolution of the game. We need some healthy negativity to pinpoint what are the game's weakness not

Youtubers don't create the sentiment, they only monetize it, and concentrate the people already having it.