EoA 10.0 LEAK

[Mace]

If it goes to Elves, then it goes to everyone, but I fear that by allowing everyone to be a Shaman, your tearing away the fundamentals of what being a true Shaman is.

Tanny, this is stupid, your sense of equal is silly. Not all races are equal, the factions aren't equal, they don't have equal numbers of everything so the fans won't be upset.

They are different, they have strengths and weaknesses. It's exactly the same as classes. For gameplay purposes, classes need roughly equivalent performances, but they are neither the same nor equal, not in the lore and nor should they be.


Some races have more, do more, have achieved more. Some will, some will not, some are more capable in areas the gameplay class reflects but not in others that exist in the lore but have no quantifiable measure for play.

They all have characteristics and features that make them

Mace's version of this "elf shamanism" just seems like a meme that would be spout around as "fake shamans." And yeah, people on here can say "Well it's not actual shamans...it's arcane with shaman abilities!" To me, that just makes it sound so much worse.

They don't really care. If they did they'd have made a lot more noise about the Tidesages being playable as shaman, More people appreciated the option to have an extra class, and enough liked that Tidesages were something different. They didn't care they weren't really shaman in the lore.


When wow kicked off we cared a lot more that hunters weren't actually rangers or that night elf playable priests weren't really moonpriests - people have always wanted more options, but also cared for them to be done in a way that honours their race.

They are far less concerned about my suggestion if it came to pass than you think.

And people make memes about anything and everything so what.

We've got the Blood Knights, the Sentinels, the Duskwatch, the Magisters of all 4 sectors, the Farstriders...I don't think the elves are run down on having unique branches to their societies.

We're talking about playable classes, not unique branches, and for either this saying goes.."the more the merrier"

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Yeah, our argument is bad, not yours, we are the ones being obtuse i don't know how you can lack self aware like that

Nachtigal and several others have easily demonstrated they understand what I have been saying. However you and Tanaria have not - it is VERY clear from your responses. So either you get it and are being stubborn not wanting to lose face or having agendas, or you just don't get it.

[Syegfryed]

Nachtigal and several others have easily demonstrated they understand what I have been saying. However you and Tanaria have not - it is VERY clear from your responses. So either you get it and are being stubborn not wanting to lose face or having agendas, or you just don't get it.

Just because we don't agree in what you said, don't mean we don't understand it. Saying wow classes work different from what you said don't mean we don't want to "lose face"

We 100% understand, but we are saying its completely nonsensical and go against already established lore, classes are build one way in lore and gameplay, they are not "other classes who can emulate with arcane power", there is no race who "emulate" one classe by being another, therefore, a mage who pretend to be a shaman or a druid with arcane magic goes against the lore of the game, he is not a true shaman or a true druid

a shaman is exclusively a person who commune with the spirits and call for then, period, not someone who use arcane magic to pretend

So either you get it and are being stubborn not wanting to lose face or having agendas,

Pretty weird coming from someone who agenda is to make elves be all classes, pushing highborn as a pivotal thing in night elf society.

[Mace]

Just because we don't agree in what you said, don't mean we don't understand it. Saying wow classes work different from what you said don't mean we don't want to "lose face"

No, you actually don't understand what I've been trying to say. It is easy for me to tell based on your responses. You may also not agree with elves having access to the shaman class, but you haven't properly grasped the manner which. Tanaria is even worse, she clearly doesn't understand what I am saying largely because she has failed to follow what I have explained about it since I first posted.

We 100% understand, but we are saying its completely nonsensical and go against already established lore,

Demonstrates you haven't understood what I am saying

classes are build one way in lore and gameplay, they are not "other classes who can emulate with arcane power", there is no race who "emulate" one classe by being another, therefore, a mage who pretend to be a shaman or a druid with arcane magic goes against the lore of the game, he is not a true shaman or a true druid

Further shows you haven't understood what I have been saying.

a shaman is exclusively a person who commune with the spirits and call for then, period, not someone who use arcane magic to pretend

While I know this quite well, the fact you are using it as some sort of rebuttal to what I have suggested clearly demonstrates you haven't understood what I have suggested either.

Pretty weird coming from someone who agenda is to make elves be all classes, pushing highborn as a pivotal thing in night elf society.

There is no agenda, will you accuses me of having some agenda every time I post a suggestion relevant to a topic if it concerns elves. Do i have an agenda if I state what I'd like to see? This isn't business or politics and I do not treat it as such. THIs is leisure, where we all have opinions, likes and ideas... I am not one of those fans trying to push anything of r the devs or anyone, - you want Tanaria and others like her for that. What an utter waste of time.

[Syegfryed]

No, you actually don't understand what I've been trying to say. It is easy for me to tell based on your responses. You may also not agree with elves having access to the shaman class, but you haven't properly grasped the manner which. Tanaria is even worse, she clearly doesn't understand what I am saying largely because she has failed to follow what I have explained about it since I first posted.

Again, we quite understand everything, just because we don't agree doesn't mean we don't.

The point is not "elves having access to the shaman class', that is another subject, the main point is "elves using arcane magic to pretend be shaman', this is nonsense and wow does not support that.

Saying "we don't get, we don't grasp we fail to understand" just show how high ou are in this high horse, hubris is not something to be proud off.

While I know this quite well, the fact you are using it as some sort of rebuttal to what I have suggested clearly demonstrates you haven't understood what I have suggested either.

Your suggestion is having mages using arcane magic to pretend being shamans and druids as a lore excuse so you can play those classes with elves, don't try to backpedal now, this is your point since the start, and this is against established lore. You tried to bring kul'tirans humans as argument to support your claim, but they actually refute what you said, as they, like any shaman, commune with the spirits.

Now, if you want to actively change the lore and retcon how they work, so "mages using arcane magic can be shamans and druids", at least acknowledge what you want is completely nonsensical to wow, would require changes in the established lore, when there is no reason to.

AND you don't even realise that would apply to every single race not just elves, everyone would be everything by playing pretend or "close enough. So its extremely curious how do you think this should only apply to elves.

There is no agenda, will you accuses me of having some agenda every time I post a suggestion relevant to a topic if it concerns elves. Do i have an agenda if I state what I'd like to see? This isn't business or politics and I do not treat it as such. THIs is leisure, where we all have opinions, likes and ideas... I am not one of those fans trying to push anything of r the devs or anyone, - you want Tanaria and others like her for that. What an utter waste of time.

You are the first one who try to claim we had an agenda.

You were saying taurens and draeneis should not get rogues "because hooves" despite we already seeing draeneis and taurens npcs being rogues and saying all the elves should get access to shamans and druids because "they can use arcane magic". This is so biased that i don't know how you don't have self aware on that.

I even said lore-friendly ways of elves getting shaman class, by proper being taught by shaman races, like draeneis teaching night elves and orcs teaching blood elves, there is literally no reason for "mages pretend to be shaman". Let alone how elves already have plenty of classes already, while others don't, they would be the last in line to get more

Phrasing again, the problem is not giving elves more classes, is how you are suggesting to be, that straight up go against the lore and gameplay.

[Mace]

Again, we quite understand everything, just because we don't agree doesn't mean we don't.

The point is not "elves having access to the shaman class', that is another subject, the main point is "elves using arcane magic to pretend be shaman', this is nonsense and wow does not support that.

Saying "we don't get, we don't grasp we fail to understand" just show how high ou are in this high horse, hubris is not something to be proud off.

You're not pretending to be a shaman , you're not a shaman in this scenario, although others can view as one because your area of expertise is the elements and you deal with elemental spirits. You have access to the class. The fact you don't get this shows you don't understand.

Your suggestion is having mages using arcane magic to pretend being shamans and druids as a lore excuse so you can play those classes with elves, don't try to backpedal now, this is your point since the start, and this is against established lore.

Now part of your inability to understand what I am saying is because you have already pre-supposed my motive and condemned or hated me for it. With that attitude you will fail to hear or perceive what a person is saying. Do you not know, that such attitudes stop us from actually being able to hear what people are saying. You won't listen to people you dislike, or hate - because those negative emotions will colour your view. You'd instead see what they say as something to attack, and would approach it with that mindset,.

You will be unable to learn from them or from what they say. You are filled with loathing and contempt because all you can think of is some pansy elf lunatic that wants elves for everything, pathetic, despicable, and your scorn is making you fail to see what is being said. You still haven't understood it, and you certainly have mis-judged me.


Let's examine the statement you quoted.

1. Mages and druids are using their expertise which is arcane magic and communication with spirits to do similar things the shaman class can do with the elements is what I have been saying. Not mages using the arcane to pretend to be druids or pretend to be shaman like you have stated.

2. Off course your second statement about me was addressed in the first 2 paragraphs of my reply.

You tried to bring kul'tirans humans as argument to support your claim, but they actually refute what you said, as they, like any shaman, commune with the spirits.

Kul'tirans Tidesages summon elementals, so do mages. Druids, mages, priests can all talk to spirits. Mages have been known to interact with elemental spirits they summon and bind. Druids have been known to communicate both with elemental , nature/forest spirits. Priests off course can communicate with spirits of humanoids, as can druids and mages - part of their magic allows them to.

The Kul'tiran Tidesages are mage/priest hybrids. Elves often communicate with their spirits being magically inclined races. So please tell me how unfeasible would a group of elven mages, elven mage-druids or elven mage void wielders who specialise in dealing with the elements and spirits would not effectively do what the shaman gameplay class can do and thus should have access?

As I mentioned, would not those mages, mage-druids, or mage-void users not also be present in areas other shaman gathering the lore like the Maelstrom, though they are technically not shaman, because while mage/druids/void experts, their fields of expertise are the elements like the other lore shaman. You don't have to be a shaman by Orc standards or their definitions to actually do shaman like things.. you never have been.

Did not Broxigar refer to Tyrande as a shaman when he first met her - though she is a priest? Because shaman isn't some defined structure in lore that the gameplay class determines,. The gameplay class has always been merely a vehicle or mechanism to play a particular style. The evidence is clear because shaman like THrall and a few others demonstrate abilities extend beyond what the shaman class has available. It is even greater for druids and mages, they have abilities that extend well beyond what the gameplay class allows them access too.. or have you never read any of the books or the information in game in places like Dalaran, or not seen what some of the mages , druids you fight in some of those encounters can actually do that the class cannot do?

Now, if you want to actively change the lore and retcon how they work, so "mages using arcane magic can be shamans and druids", at least acknowledge what you want is completely nonsensical to wow, would require changes in the established lore, when there is no reason to.

Every suggestion changes lore, but then I explained to you in detail earlier, what sort of lore changes I find acceptable to make in a forum like this and which ones I avoid and I explained to you why.

However, I was not changing how mages work at all. I specifically used the term arcane users, and the lore clearly demonstrates that arcane users including mages can use the arcane to wield all the elements. Why it is hard for you to fathom that some can specifically train in elemental wielding as elven arcane users and thus qualify to use the shaman gameplay class as elemental arcane mage or mage druid or mage void wielders, is just one of several reasons why I say you are being pigheaded and stubborn over this.

AND you don't even realise that would apply to every single race not just elves, everyone would be everything by playing pretend or "close enough. So its extremely curious how do you think this should only apply to elves.

How can i not realise something I have mentioned, and also acknowledged as true. Also saying that it could be extended to more than elves or it could be limited to elves. I also provided reasons that could limit this to elves.. citing their long and far more extensive use of and knowledge of the arcane, druidism and the void. So it could easily apply to more races or it could be restricted to elves based on what the developers want to do.

e.g. humans don't have the long arcane mastery elves have, so far , but nothing is to stop this extending to a group or school that includes humans training to use the arcane in this way. however, because the elves arcane tradition is much more extensive including a lot of lost knowledge returning with the Moonguard, Highborne and Nightborne duskguard, the source of this expertise can come from there and only be limited to elves, Night elves have druidism to augment their mage arcane expertise in generating the elementals, while void elves have the void to make them more effective in addition to the arcane. However neither the void or druidism are entirely essential too, which is why blood elves can get it too.. druidism and the void just help make it better, something only the elves group have. Also having a priesthood also helps.. so you could say any race that has mage + any of priest, druid or void usage can effectively qualify and be reasonable to have a new group of people train to use the elements based on their arcane and druid/preist/void knoweldge.

You don't have to stop their either, and I have never said you have to, elves can pick it up, so can other races who have those classes, but even if they don't, blizzard can easily write that they learn it, they can learn to be shaman, or they can learn to be mages + druid, mages+priest, mages+ void user and gain the elven route to the effective same thing.

I have never said that can't happen. I rather actually prefer though having specific and race lore desgined reasons for generating new class combos. For the elves, accessing the shaman playable class via what their race does very well makes sense. I feel elves should have all magical classes accessible, there is enough in their history , and skill set to make this possible in one way or another, and I just gave ways I felt would fit the warcraft elven story and mould - i don't see them becoming shaman like orcs do, however I can see them using the arcane and druidism/void/priest knowledge to effectively do the same things and so can /should have shaman selectable.

Still don't get it?

You are the first one who try to claim we had an agenda.

Well, you have a an elf hate complex, although I was more referring to Tanaria's community manipulation tactics. Not you.

You were saying taurens and draeneis should not get rogues "because hooves" despite we already seeing draeneis and taurens npcs being rogues and saying all the elves should get access to shamans and druids because "they can use arcane magic". This is so biased that i don't know how you don't have self aware on that.

Look, it's blizzard that have avoided making the race have rogues for those reasons. And a few NPCs having a class the rest of the race can't choose has not always meant they should be. Let's see you name the Tauren rogue.

Still, i have stated before, t hat whiles I am not onboard with them becoming rogues, it is certainly a possibility and it isn't far-fetched at all. my reasons are well documented, you can flip back the pages to refresh your memory.

I even said lore-friendly ways of elves getting shaman class, by proper being taught by shaman races, like draeneis teaching night elves and orcs teaching blood elves, there is literally no reason for "mages pretend to be shaman". Let alone how elves already have plenty of classes already, while others don't, they would be the last in line to get more

Phrasing again, the problem is not giving elves more classes, is how you are suggesting to be, that straight up go against the lore and gameplay.

Well, I don't think elves learning to be shaman like orcs fits the elven races, and I don't feel they need to either for the reasons I've given. While your suggestion is one that could also work, I would be more comfortable with the route I outlined. Now this is preference, (which is why I say you don't like my suggestion).

You see it as pretending to be shaman - which it isn't (which is why I say you're not understanding), but it seems hypocritical to me, because you should then be hating Kul'tiran Shaman and a host of other class-race combos, including Tauren Sunwalkers as paladins and priests that are accessing classes in gameplay that they aren't entirely in lore or something different in lore. Have you so quickly forgotten the list I made above.

[Syegfryed]

You're not pretending to be a shaman , you're not a shaman in this scenario, although others can view as one because your area of expertise is the elements and you deal with elemental spirits. You have access to the class. The fact you don't get this shows you don't understand.

Again, we get this, and this is straight up playing pretend, its completely nonsensical and goes against established lore.

No one will view that way and no one will call that way, its a nonsensical way to "get access to the class" when they can just go with the lore friendly way

Now part of your inability to understand what I am saying is because you have already pre-supposed my motive and condemned or hated me for it.

Nope, this is you projecting, and keep saying we are unable to understand, despite we still understanding just saying is something that hold no grounds in warcraft setting.

1. Mages and druids are using their expertise which is arcane magic and communication with spirits to do similar things the shaman class can do with the elements is what I have been saying. Not mages using the arcane to pretend to be druids or pretend to be shaman like you have stated.

ITs literally the same thing, you are just trying to flourish like they are different, mages and druids do not comune with the spirits, period, its pretending to be other classes with the lame excuse of "i have expertise in arcane magic"

Kul'tirans Tidesages summon elementals, so do mages.

So?

just because they "summon elementals" you think they are the same, or close enough? is like saying "warriors use swords, so do death knights, so do rogues, so do monks"

What you are using here, is the fallacy of Undistributed Middle, in short: assuming because two things share a property, that makes them the same thing. The way a mage summon an elemental of water is totally different of how shamans summon their own elementals, they are not "close enough to give elves access to shaman.

Druids, mages, priests can all talk to spirits.

rogues, warrios and dk all can talk to spirits ass well, there is countless of quests we do that

They also use weapons, therefore, draeneis and taurens should be rogues.

The Kul'tiran Tidesages are mage/priest hybrids.

Nope, they are shamans.

So please tell me how unfeasible would a group of elven mages, elven mage-druids or elven mage void wielders who specialise in dealing with the elements and spirits would not effectively do what the shaman gameplay class can do and thus should have access?

because that is not what a shaman does, therefore, you can get "shaman gameplay access" if you are not a shamam, you simple are not being a shaman, so you should not play a shaman, rly straightfoward.

is literally play pretend and you spelled out here, "a mage elf who specialise in void or arcane pretend to be shaman so you get that class in gameplay" and thats not how things work in wow.

As I mentioned, would not those mages, mage-druids, or mage-void users not also be present in areas other shaman gathering the lore like the Maelstrom, though they are technically not shaman, because while mage/druids/void experts, their fields of expertise are the elements like the other lore shaman. You don't have to be a shaman by Orc standards or their definitions to actually do shaman like things.. you never have been.

Basically, they are not shamans, but you want then pretend to be shamans so you can play shaman as elves

ITs amazing how this is preposterous, "you don't have to be a shaman to play as a shaman". You can only be a shaman if you commune with the spirits and the elements like all others shamans; they will not, neither should, create a special clause just because you want to.

Yes, we know orcish shamanism is different from dwarven, draenei, or tauren, but the core is the same, and its how all come together.

Did not Broxigar refer to Tyrande as a shaman when he first met her - though she is a priest?

Yes, because he was ignorant about it and didn't know the differences, a pattern i see in those discussions.

Because shaman isn't some defined structure in lore that the gameplay class determines,. The gameplay class has always been merely a vehicle or mechanism to play a particular style. The evidence is clear because shaman like THrall and a few others demonstrate abilities extend beyond what the shaman class has available.

Nope, shamans are well established and defined in lore, they are being who commune with the spirits and the elements, one way or another, we have tons of material exploring what a shaman is what they do and how they do, there is no evidence to support your claim, Thrall is a shaman trough and trough, his abilities are inside the shaman area.

Every suggestion changes lore, but then I explained to you in detail earlier, what sort of lore changes I find acceptable to make in a forum like this and which ones I avoid and I explained to you why.

Nope, not every suggestion changes lore, factually wrong, there is a big difference in expanding what we have, building on top of it and actively changing/retconing to make it work.

e.g. humans don't have the long arcane mastery elves have, so far , but nothing is to stop this extending to a group or school that includes humans training to use the arcane in this way. however, because the elves arcane tradition is much more extensive including a lot of lost knowledge returning with the Moonguard, Highborne and Nightborne duskguard, the source of this expertise can come from there and only be limited to elves, Night elves have druidism to augment their mage arcane expertise in generating the elementals, while void elves have the void to make them more effective in addition to the arcane. However neither the void or druidism are entirely essential too, which is why blood elves can get it too.. druidism and the void just help make it better, something only the elves group have. Also having a priesthood also helps.. so you could say any race that has mage + any of priest, druid or void usage can effectively qualify and be reasonable to have a new group of people train to use the elements based on their arcane and druid/preist/void knoweldge.

Truly amazing how you can't see the irony in those words, basically pretending no race have the "mastery of elves" in arcane, so they are the ones who can be all classes using arcane, which leads to the last point in this post.

Well, you have a an elf hate complex, although I was more referring to Tanaria's community manipulation tactics. Not you.

And you don't have an elf complex? like come on, you can't possible write a post like this without self aware of that.

Look, it's blizzard that have avoided making the race have rogues for those reasons. And a few NPCs having a class the rest of the race can't choose has not always meant they should be. Let's see you name the Tauren rogue.

Few npcs having a class is more than what you have dude

The lore and the game strong support tauren and draenei rogues, the lore and the game does not support "arcane users pretending to be shamans or druids"

Lets see YOU name a elf shaman.

Well, I don't think elves learning to be shaman like orcs fits the elven races, and I don't feel they need to either for the reasons I've given. While your suggestion is one that could also work, I would be more comfortable with the route I outlined. Now this is preference, (which is why I say you don't like my suggestion).

This is the point that i wanted to reach

OF COURSE you would be comfortable with the impossible route, that make no sense, that scream bias instead of the lore friendly one.

You think elves are so superior that they should not learn from other races how to properly be a class, they are too good to lower themselves like that am i right? you think the better route, to show how they are amazing and superior by "using their arcane mastery to emulate other classes, so even if they are not like the others, they are SO GOOD, that they can have acess to the class in the gameplay"

Honestly, this alone speak volumes, there is nothing else to be add and i close my case with this one.

[Mace]

This is the point that i wanted to reach

OF COURSE you would be comfortable with the impossible route, that make no sense, that scream bias instead of the lore friendly one.

You think elves are so superior that they should not learn from other races how to properly be a class, they are too good to lower themselves like that am i right? you think the better route, to show how they are amazing and superior by "using their arcane mastery to emulate other classes, so even if they are not like the others, they are SO GOOD, that they can have acess to the class in the gameplay"

Honestly, this alone speak volumes, there is nothing else to be add and i close my case with this one.

I understood your point from the start, but that very statement you quote, I have said that several times and also at the start - this is why I said you weren't understanding me.

I think elves are superior - not because i like them any more or exalt Caucasian stereotypes as the most superior thing. - night elves don't even fit that, but hey. M y favourite race is orcs, I have spent much more time talking on elves because a certain person I know quite well keeps dragging me into that conversation, and if it weren't for him, I'd have stopped posting a long long long long time ago.

Still the I don't think of elves as superior in the way I suspect you think I do at all. I am a stickler for the accuracy of information I have. The elves are clearly defined in the lore , more so than most races, and they are the highest achievers of the Azeroth races - their accomplishments and their knowledge in certain fields is well stated, this is what makes them , when applicable suitable for the classes they have and candidates for the ones I have suggested.. it is not due to some elf bias or superiority complex, I find such detestable, and actually hate the arrogance of the elves, which is why I like the presentation of the orcs better.

It's what the lore tells us .. you I feel have an anti-elf bias, which is why you consider everyone who compliments them or suggests anything in their favour to be because they are some elf waifu or wannabe - when in my case, I have backed what I have said with evidence from the lore and taken the time to explain how what the lore says opens the door for this or that to be able to happen.

I'm not saying this because I think elves should be everything, at least no more that I think other races should be everything. I pointed out clearly to Tanaria, all races aren't equal, neither are the factions, nor the genders - they have different attributes, strengths and weaknesses, some have more ability in some areas, greater numbers, greater territory, longer history , it not only varies but it changes.. one can be the greatest nation and then be destroyed leaving a remnant of a remnant, one can be the laughing stock, rejected and hunted to near extermination and rise to become the most powerful race.

That's just story, it ebbs and flows.. i don't care a wit what the levs or alliance has. Tanaria, is so consumed by her horde and blood elf fanaticism she fails to see. I supported Ravenmoon's suggestion of a blood elf exodus for the reasons he gave when he made it in relation to fixing faction identity - and that is the only capacity he has ever mentioned it, because it was specific to a cause.

I have argued for a night elf resurgence , not because I want to marry the more become them and love them so much, but simply because I felt they had taken far too many knocks, and needed an upswing to balance it out ( a view I am clearly not alone in sharing), it ceases to become fun or interesting when you constantly knock on down one group, - this might make me appear to be some massive elf lover, but I have often wavered into such discussions when others have made presumptions in such topics and , in their bias for their favourite race or faction, failed to actually see what is going on.

Neither take what me or the other has said on merit of their argument, they have simply assumed this is a favouritism game where I am backing my favourites and out of loyalty they must back theirs.

I am not that sort of person, you would find me quite fair and level headed and not make such presumptions of others unless given clear reason to

You would also find the vast majority of my topics on lore, especially on elves, night elves has been to correct mis interpretations and mis-understanding, not because i have some fetish, but more because I hate when people get it wrong, have or show bad information, and if i've made the effort to discover or find something and it is relevant, I actually care enough for the topic and the person to say something.

I don't like correcting people to make them feel bad or show myself superior. I was drawn into looking at one group a lot more than others, thanks to certain individuals , as I also did my looking into, where I found information or new information I posted.

I have made topics to ask questions, discuss, to address is conceptions, give opinions, to be creative with new suggestions for things I'd like, diverse reasons.

Also I don't care whether people like it or not, however out of courtesy to them as human beings, even when they clearly don't deserve been shown such consideration based on their behaviour, I would still do my best to respond and address something I feel is either wrong, mis understood or mis-interpreted, and frankly is the only reason I am still responding to you.

- - - Updated - - -

Truly amazing how you can't see the irony in those words, basically pretending no race have the "mastery of elves" in arcane, so they are the ones who can be all classes using arcane, which leads to the last point in this post.

You are confusing capability with potential. In the lore the capability of the elves with the arcane has been shown and remarked by the writers and creators of the game, it's part of their race quality. This is not to say other races don't have the potential or capability if they were to delve as wholeheartedly as the elves have.

But, this is not a meritocracy system, the races are not equal nor are they the same. but even if they were, in the lore the elves as a race have devoted far more of themselves to this than other races have, it would actually be stupid if they weren't better at it, especially as they have been written to have a natural affinity to the magic. So naturally, they'd have put more time, more effort, more passion, developed greater skill, better techniques, not to mention having a higher natural talent for this. This is what the lore shows us and tells us. That's not to say other races may not have similar or even greater potential, if they do, they haven't fulfilled it yet..

You don't hear me going on about the raw physical strength of the elves, or the power of their blows, nor about the greater feats of engineering they perform or mastery of curses and hexes they have.. I don't go on about their great musculature or powerful builds, their fierce terrifying countenances or battle war cries. Who knows, they could gain all these things, but that's not what their greatest strengths lie in

[Syegfryed]

I think elves are superior - not because i like them any more or exalt Caucasian stereotypes as the most superior thing. - night elves don't even fit that, but hey. M y favourite race is orcs, I have spent much more time talking on elves because a certain person I know quite well keeps dragging me into that conversation, and if it weren't for him, I'd have stopped posting a long long long long time ago.

Comedy gold, like i said, you do think they are superior, but you say your favorite race is orcs, maybe as a way to get some symphaty of me because my signature.

Like, i am not new inthis forum, we both know you would be posting about elves regardless

I'm not saying this because I think elves should be everything, at least no more that I think other races should be everything.

Bur you said taurens and draeneis should not be rogues?

and rise to become the most powerful race.

Except you know, they didn't, this out of reality.

Also I don't care whether people like it or not, however out of courtesy to them as human beings, even when they clearly don't deserve been shown such consideration based on their behaviour, I would still do my best to respond and address something I feel is either wrong, mis understood or mis-interpreted, and frankly is the only reason I am still responding to you.

You are the one calling others sutbborns, unable, pigheaded and others?

Again, "arcane/void users" using arcane and void magic cannot/should not be shamans, this goes against the established lore.

If a blood elf or a night elf in the far, far ahead future, end up getting shaman, it should be just like others, lore friendly, with they using the sandals of humility once again and being taught by other races, there is no shame in that and they will not be inferior for it, this will actually elevate they as race trusting their allies.


- - - Updated - - -

You are confusing capability with potential. In the lore the capability of the elves with the arcane has been shown and remarked by the writers and creators of the game, it's part of their race quality. This is not to say other races don't have the potential or capability if they were to delve as wholeheartedly as the elves have.

Thats why they are mages and not shamans, or druids, having "great potential in arcane arts" don't mean they can emulate other classes

and for the record, other races have the same or similar capabilities with arcane, this is something to brag about it.

And this leak is not even true, there is little reasons to keep talking about it

[Mace]

Few npcs having a class is more than what you have dude

The lore and the game strong support tauren and draenei rogues, the lore and the game does not support "arcane users pretending to be shamans or druids"

Lets see YOU name a elf shaman.

You are missing the point, again. The gameworld is not linear, the game systems are. Class you can play is just a mechanism to play. YEs it holds a fantasy, but one that quite a number of in lore classes can take but are neither restricted to one unifified outlook nor strictly identical to the gameplay class. Sometimes they are barely relatable.

It doesn't matter if you had prior examples of a class combo in-game - this does not make it any more likely or less to become a playable class. Many class combos were given having no examples of them before they were given. Should we only suggest ones that had an example?

Too often players don't understand what the developers want or aim from having a class playable. there is some connection to the lore element, but they have shown you don't actually need to be a shaman like an orc to be a playable one. Shaman in lore is not just limited to how orcs see it. Nor are they one set thing either. A shaman is many things to an orc, some of which the playable class reflects, some of which it doesn't. The playable class also reflects certain aspects of shamanism in other races, but it also reflects and does things that other professions or disciplines are capable of doing too, not limiting itself to just the ones in lore that are shaman. Basically you don't have to be a shaman in the lore to actually be able to have the shaman class playable.

Have you ever thought that perhaps to qualify for a shaman you need to be able to wield elemental power and do something with the elements.. this is why Tidesages qualify, and naga can qualify, and this is why elves can qualify too through their mage disciplines or combining their mage and druid or mage and void expertise.

When they added Goblin, Dwarven and Kul'tiran shaman, they extended or broadened what qualifies to be a shaman. As you know, dwarves fly gryphons and wield lightning through their hammer - it's on this basis they are "shaman" - who aren't actually shaman.. orcs may call them shaman because they are wielding elements too, but they are called Stormhammers.

So would it surprise if some elven mages or elven mage druid combo or elven void mages who specialised in elemental magic were actually referred to as shaman by orcs and tauren, although they may have their own name in elven society linked to the mages or some mage/druid training or some mage void training?

You have to look at what the class stands for and represents then go from there. From the examples I've given, can you not see that since cataclysm, the pre-requisite for accessing the shaman class in gameplay selection has been your race having people being able to wield the elements and deal/summon elementals - doesn't matter if they do it through the orc way or another means of magic. The game didn't say that you had to be a shaman like the orcs and tauren to be able to play the shaman class, otherwise dwarves, goblins and Kul'tiran would not qualify.


Notice I only make suggestions for class combos that already have a precedence or route to happening based on how the race behaves or what they have going for them. did you also notice I come to it from what the race is capable of doing and how that relates to the class suggested or how it could be made to bear the class suggested? Notice I in not one of my suggestions, suggested that they could learn it from x. While this is possible, and could happen, I haven't made that suggestion, not just because i think it's lazy and cheap, in some cases, I think it's totally un-necessary because the race already has a mechanism to get there themselves in their own way, and this I find truer to the race's concept which should be preserved if you want to extend their race-class combinations and is more interesting. Lovers of the race would appreciate being able to play a new class combo, but in a way that relates to their race or fits their race. Why do you think I suggested mechanome druids actually pilot mechanical animals for their shapeshift and have their druidism is based on the balance between the biological and the mechanical. This is not druidism at all, at least not the elven type, but whatever it is, it is an approximation that i feel can open the class up to gnomes and goblins in a way that fits them and is actually both more interesting and more exciting and has a feel or promise to be more fun than gnomes simply going off to be nature junky lovers like elves when they clearly are set up as mechanical lovers.

Is this the only way to do it? No, but it was a fun way fitting the gnomes that I could think of, another way, (still better than they learnt it from elves), would be to create a sub group of gnomes and build on them having or loving nature with a curious gnome tinge to it, then if you develop them into become druids, maybe you introduce some transformation of nature or encounter that really changed that community.. maybe it's a sub-race community, or just a separate community of gnome sthat have developed other things and you tell that story. That could also work

It shows care, and attention, effort put into making a new class combo. Rather than just throwing it. I want new class combos, but I want the identity and uniqueness of the races to be maintained. Part of what makes them unique in the game is their strengths and focuses, if they can just suddenly become everything it removes that and lessens them, however if they can be a new class in a way that fits their races strengths and passion - then it doesn't undermine.

This isn't always possible with every class combo, but in time as new events open up, and new lore develops, sometimes a way opens to pave the way. e.g. are void elf druids, I felt night and ovoid elven collaboration to help the emerald dream against the void was a door that could open up to bring void elf druids - that possibility would not have happened before the nightmare stories developments in legion and beyond nor the realisation of the void elves.

[Mace]

@Syegfryed

The reason elves should access the playable shaman class in the arcane related way I explained is because the arcane can be used in this way AND the elves' arcane knowledge and expertise is far more widespread in their races and people than it is other mage playable races like humans and gnomes.

Unlike elves, no other race, including humans has had such extensive and widespread societal use and knowledge of the arcane - form the night elf civilization all the way to the present Highborne, void elf, blood elf, high elf and groups. Humans granted are good at magic, but the mages of Dalaran for instance, they really focus on that particular profession, they aren't as broad nor expansive as the elven races in this. Even though humans can be as good and as powerful as elves in the things they specialise in, their society isn't as broad nor encompassing with the magic as it has been for the various elven races - who've literally had over 7,000 years (at the youngest, and 15,000 years at the oldest dealing with this. So I wouldn't take this route with the humans or other mage races for g accessing the shaman playable class. only elves, because it's broad enough.

AS for the how?
Well, you never asked about more detail in this, I guess you didn't want to know, or didn't even give it a chance to try and visualise how it would be done, maybe doing so may have opened you to ways that would have made sense to you?

In my scenario, they would be a new group or specific group of elven magic experts in the arcane + priest/druid or void knowledge. This is a new group even though their origin is arcane based mixed with priest/druid/void. They'd have a new name, and likely be considered mages despite their field or name amongst elves, - or at least each elven group would have it's way of viewing them.. The night elves would have a name for them likely Valewalkers (placeholder) as they would be combining mage and druidic knowledge, it is likely the Nightborne would use this name too having kaldorei druidic and priest influences, the Void elves would have a name for them too, likely Entropists (placeholder) as they'd be combining arcane mage and void powers, , it's likely the blood elves would also have their own name, probably Thermatauge (placeholder) which the Nightborne could alternatively use.. this is basically like the Tidesage - which is a mage/priest combo that is effectively a shaman for class purposes and although a mage/priest in profession, these guys would be with the other shaman in the Maelstorm because of their advance knowledge and expertise dealing with the elements and elementals which would be on par with the other traditional shaman even though the source of their knowledge is different (in this case it is arcane based). (think about it, these are the masters of magic, it is highly likely they would have a field or develop or re-develop a long lost field dedicated to manipulating the elements, which ahs a lot of use - it's likely this has existed in elven society, and with the addition of druidic knowledge (for night elves), void knowledge for void elves) pries knowledge for blood elves they have now been able to develop it to do most of the things in the shaman class repertoire including healing. After all the lore has told as about magic and the arcane, and the night elven empire, it's hard to think that they would have not powerfully developed this in the kaldorei empire, and even if lost to the high elves, recent scrounging for knowledge and development of magic , especially with the return of groups like the Highborne and Nightborne would and knowledge of druidism and the void plus the elves combining the two now for the firs time ( we can understand that until cataclysm, then legion how elves may not have combined druidism and magecraft, although when you consider the lore, many druids were former mages, and druidism does balance arcane with nature for night elves, , but the Highborne only recently returned and magecraft only recently unbanned, so it makes sense that the redevelopment, and improvement of this field of magic only recently takes place especially as night elves now are more desperately in need of all the expertise they can have, void elves are fanatical about utilising the void to it's biggest potential in every field to save and protect their world and friends, blood elves are still driven to master as much magic as they can and Nightborne still retain the intellectual curiosity that has been amplified by their freeing from Suramar also enhanced by the arcane/nature balance that exists in their salvation tree.

They would specialise in using the elements and elementals. So essentially would be shaman even though they're not, i.e. even though they are actually mage/druid, mage/voider, mage/priest - similar to Tidesages.. The orcs and tauren would likely view them as shaman though the elves would not view themselves as that, and the orcs wouldn't care to correct themselves because to them, if you deal with the elements and the spirits this + shaman as far as they're concerned, whether you call yourself a Tidesage, a Valewalker, an Entropist or a Thermatuge.

These guys specialise in the wielding the elements and dealing with elementals, it doesn't matter that the elf is the one generating the elements by his arcane magic rather than the elemental's (he can summon) own power. He doesn't qualify less or disqualified just because he is using the arcane to generate the elemental power he wields and he gains that knowledge from his arcane background for this team.

Can you see it doesn't matter how the individual is controlling the elements he wields, it just matters that he does. And it is fitting that for elves, this happens via their arcane knowledge combined with either druidism, the void or divine priest knowledge, because that is what elves are exceptionally good at. Does this make elven elemental wielders more powerful than normal shaman ones? Could do, could not, who knows depends on the strength of the individual, for the elf , the power of the elements he wields is based on his ability to use the arcane to summon it since he doesn't use the elemental he summons to do it, he isn't that talented it won't e be powerful if he is it would be very powerful, who's to say an orc who can't do magic, but has developed an extraordinarily powerful bond with his elemental able to wield it's magic powerfully especially if he has pacts with powerful elements can't be equally as powerful? You will have the same power variation wiether it is shamanism achieved the elven way through the arcane or the traditional shaman way through the elemental.


Other Races.
So that's the idea behind it, and it is easy to see these elven groups as shaman, though if you are an elf fan you know technically as far as the elves are concerned, they are some sort of mage/druid or mage/void or mage/priest and that's how they do it, because elven society doesn't have that type of orc shaman - largely cos it has never needed it being capable of wielding the elements themselves, they don't need to bargain with the elemental to lend it's power, however you can see how they can effectively do all the things an orc shaman does with mage knowledge crossed with druidism, the void or priestly knowledge and some training, and how they could have been doing this in the kaldorei empire, and maybe since the return of the Shen'dralar Highborne, Moonguard and dusk guard they've re-developed their skills and improved on them because of their recent crises and advantages of druidic, void and priestly knowledge to be powerful conveyors of elemental power.

So what about the other races? Well for the other non-shaman races, I wouldn't use this arcane route to give them shaman. I'm not saying you couldn't, you could, the principle is there, since they have mages and priests, they could develop their own groups too, but I wouldn't use that route for them. Because they don't have that arcane diversity, widespread enough, nor do they have teh druidic (night elf), void (void elf) and priestly expertise that can take it beyond mage wielding elements to involve spirits that the elven races clearly have. Even though it's possible, it's not a powerful situation for races like humans, gnomes etc who don't have shaman. You could,, remember, I said you could, I just won't do it, but you could. You could have a group of humans are in on it and they're all training.. like make it a new mage group in Dalaran instead that's developed this and they all the mage capable races train their to gain the elemental mastery required to qualify in accessing the shaman class, and that's how they do it. But I think that will make it lose it's potency.

It's only marginally better in the case of those other races than saying eg.. humans learnt it from Kul'tirans or orcs or dwarves - because humans don't have that magical race wide tradition elves have. And you have to remember what makes dwarves shaman, doesn't exist in human society (i.e. the racial affinity to earth, the development of the stormhammers - humans don't have that history- neither do they have the extensive arcane history of the elves also missing druidism and the void), this is why i won't have them take this arcane route nor have them "learn it from dwarves" as a racial thing - I'd not have them be shaman.

You see what makes Kul'tirans shaman is that specific Tidesage knowledge, that is specific to that nation, Stormwind humans don't have that culture nor expertise with the tides like they do. Now if the Kul'tiran can have a body size change and you can roll a Kul'tiran with a normal standard Stormwind human appearance (similar to how worgen can be human too), then there's your "human shaman", but the Stormwind human would not be able to be this. Unless off course they created a similar Tidesage like group humans somewhere that come and join Stormwind and they had that expertise or magical tradition developed. - that could work - because that is exactly how we get Kul'tiran Tidesages as shaman.

other than that option, this is why I wouldn't do. Are you able to see how they determine what classes races can be, and how it's not enough to have an odd example of a race being able to? Usually it is something that can relate to the race or a large enough following in the race develops this capability because of x occurrence or y reason. Is there enough in the lore of the class for the race to make this possible. to have broad interpretation of what that class actually means.

You see there is a way for eleven shaman to happen in the manner I outlined that fits the race criteria for a selectable class, - all 4 elven races can.. You see, i think your problem with this is that you have fixated on this mistake that this is mages pretending to be shaman, it is not, it's mages , well arcane users specifically, not necessarily mages, although you could call them mages, but then they are something else if you've added druidism and priest knowledge to their training (for night elves & Nightborne), void and possibly priest knowledge (for void elves) and priest knowledge for blood elves) , that are specialising in using the arcane to manipulate the elements themselves (and while they summon elementals, the elemental is just not as essential to their operation of the elements as it is for orc, tauren and troll (as well as draenei and goblin). It's arcane users here for the elves that are specialising in using the arcane to produce the elements because it is elves that have that broad extensive range of arcane knowledge and use that other races do not , because of their long standing expertise.

Draenei are already shaman through a different means, not through the arcane, as TBC shows. The Draenei are one race that could have gotten to shamanism through the arcane route, they had the knowledge and expertise for it , but that's not how it came to them, they got it through the broken, and the draenei shaman are shaman in the more traditional sense - ie. they don't have to be magical or arcane knowledgeable, , once trained in how to contact elementals and bond them, they can wield their power at the elementals leave, and it is that elementals power they are wielding, not their own.

[Syegfryed]

@Syegfryed

The reason elves should access the playable shaman class in the arcane related way I explained is because the arcane can be used in this way AND the elves' arcane knowledge and expertise is far more widespread in their races and people than it is other mage playable races like humans and gnomes.

Like i said, im not gonna engage in this matter anymore, you already made clear your position is completely biased by a mentality of thinking elves are superior of other races, not gonna read a wall of text of you trying to prove how better they are at everyone , when most of it is wrong information.

There is no reasons elves should access the shaman class with ''arcane expertise" this is just nonsensical. The arcane cannot equal the true shamans ways of communing with the spirits/elements, period.

AS for the how?
Well, you never asked about more detail in this,

Because there is no need to, is impossible. and goes against the lore of the game.

[The Stormbringer]

Level 70 cap is a dead giveaway for it being fake.

New expansion will see Shadowlands moved to Chromie time and everyone being set to level 50 again.

This would feel like shit. Imagine leveling to 60 every expansion only to get slapped with the nerf bat when the next one rolls around. That would be an absolutely terrible idea.

[Mace]

Class Acccess Concept
Now having read as detailed an explanation as I'm willing to provide in the above, here is publication summary of how I would introduce them.

Elven Elementalists

By the fall of the Kaldorei empire, the elves had mastered using the arcane to do incredible feats of magic and a profound understanding and depth of knowledge unrivalled at any point in history. This included being able to use the arcane to wield the elements of fire, air, water, earth etc.

When the sundering happen, the largest group of night elven survivors fleeing to Mount Hyjal for refuge from the crashing seas that had swallowed up much of their ruined civilization chose lay aside their magical expertise turning to druidism in order to prevent the World destroying Burning Legion from ever returning. When the Sunstriders were exiled, most of the knowledge of the elven empire was lost to them, and when they rebuilt, they greatly developed some areas, recapturing their lost glory, but far too many others were left lost, forgotten or inaccessible.

When the night elves of Eldre'thalas and Suramar, including the Moonguard re-emerged and the northern kaldorei nation lifted their ban, much of once lost oand restricted knowledge returned to the elven nations. In order to rise to the new challenges in their lives, increase their strengths to prevail against their enemies and save their world, these elven races started recapturing and redeveloping their long lost knowledge. The Highborne and Moonguard trained new kaldorei, the void elves turned to the void to enhance their abilities and the blood elves, driven by a need for magical knowledge, accessed lost knowledge through their Nightborne friends.

For the first time amongst night elves, arcane knowledge of the kaldorei empire could be enhanced by the extensive druidic knowledge gained in the last 10,000 years, now the ban on magic was lifted and both groups started working together. This, combined with a desperate need to be able to defend themselves and protect their homelands and forests, led to an intensive and dedicate effort to amplify and restore their lost knowledge and skills re mastering their use of the elements through the arcane and elementals which was greatly enhanced by druidic understanding of spirits and priestly divinations.

The void elves, also driven by a thirst for knowledge and conviction in the necessity to master and utilise the power of the void in every area of knowledge, harnessed their new found powers to their arcane knowledge developing astonishing control and power over the elements and elementals.

Similarly, blood elves, buoyed by the flood of returned arcane knowledge of the elves lost to them and now brought back by the Nightborne, quickly took to enhancing their magical capabilities with extensive elemental mastery, pulling from their priestly divination of spirits to enhance their control of elementals to astonishing efficiency.

The Nightborne, having added knowledge of druidism from Val'Sharah and their close link to the tree of balance, the Arcan'dor, combined with their fledgling priest knowledge were also able to improve on the devastating ancient elemental mastery of the kaldorei empire with their blood elven allies.

Valewalkers, Entropists and Thermatauges became leading knowledge fields in elemental control amongst the Night elves, Nightborne, void elves and blood elves - showing incredible expertise, power and knowledge of the underlying fundamental principles of matter, spirits and the elements. These experts quickly found themselves sought after by Earthen Ring representatives to consult on matters affecting the elemental stability of Azeroth, each brought profound insights and levels of expertise that their origin backgrounds afforded them to the effort. Now whilst they and their societies do not consider themselves shaman as such, they are widely regarded as that by their Earthen ring peers.


Night elves, Nightborne, Blood elves and Void elves can all now access the shaman class as Valewalkers, Thermatauges and Entropists.

[Fiercelord]

If we combine all these huge texts from last few pages, we could have a whole book.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Fake Shamans then. That's all I see in your post - how to bring in "fake shamans."

You can call them whatever you like. @Syegfryed can call them whatever he likes.

I will call them "fake shamans."

[Mace]

Fake Shamans then. That's all I see in your post - how to bring in "fake shamans."

You can call them whatever you like. @Syegfryed can call them whatever he likes.

I will call them "fake shamans."

What are real shaman is exactly? Do you even know?

You see, I'm not trying to turn them into "real shaman", the concept I presented made them masters of the elements and skilled at dealing with elements they can summon and communicate with through their arcane/druidic/priest expertise, or arcane/void expertise or arcane/priest expertise.

They don't have to be "real" (which what you mean is orc/tauren/troll) type shaman to be qualify to access the shaman class - blizzard already showed this with both dwarves and Kul'tirans (possibly goblins too).

They have more than enough to qualify or become experts with the elements with their existing magical traditions and expertise. Therefore I see no reason not to open up the playable class to these elven mage/druid/priest/void users who specialise in wielding elements

[leobenn]

This would feel like shit. Imagine leveling to 60 every expansion only to get slapped with the nerf bat when the next one rolls around. That would be an absolutely terrible idea.

No, this makes sense I think (not necessarily the leak, just the level 60 thing). I believe Blizzard has stated that moving forward new players must level on the previous expansion and existing players can level new characters wherever they want (this is how it worked with Shadowlands right? New players to WoW had to level in BFA). They already have a system in place that assumes every expansion will level 1-50 (or 10-50), so increasing level cap to 70 would break this.

[Mace]

@Tanaria Your entire objection seems based on "they don't deal with elements/als like the orcs do - so they're fake shaman". Shows you don't understand. Well, good thing I'm not calling them shaman in lore now. But then blizzard never said that in order to qualify for the shaman class, you gotta do it like the orcs do - i.e. borrow all the power from the elemental or be recognised and called shaman in the lore.
I never knew the playable class to have such a restriction, cos the dwarven storm hammmer riders and the kul'tiran Tidesages have never been described as doing that and are still have access to the shaman class, in addition, in the game lore, they aren't called shaman either - Stormhammers and Tidesages aren't called shaman - although they do similar things - so you're either being dense, hypocritical or very stubborn to then say or think that the same can't apply for the elves in this way.


They clearly introduced classes that aren't called shaman as shaman via class selection, not by some lore conversion where tidesages or stormhammers now get to be called shaman by their respective societies. - and you will have no logical rebuttal or counter to this, because their isn't any, knowing you, you'd faff around with some half facts to prove a point you never needed to prove, then present it as a suitable counter argument, thinking us all dumb enough to accept it because you call it so.

[Rhlor]

i think some points of this may be true about floating islands and race

[cone of cold]

I guess EoA means Evoker on Azeroth

- - - Updated - - -

What are real shaman is exactly? Do you even know?

Asking the elements for help instead of demanding and dominating them, existing in harmony with the elements, soothing the elements instead of enraging them. Respecting them.