10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[mysticx]

I feel the complete opposite and don't get why ppl love the timer while hating enrage mechanics, when the timer is exceeded in one scenario players rage and in the other the npcs rage.

Well, the NPCs rage, the players wipe, and then the players rage. It's a difference, albeit a subtle one.

[Jotaux]

Eh it's just about knowing which gear performs better after scaling... for instance, sockets still keep most of their value. In fact, back in MoP CM that's how you "geared" to "cheese" the CM system.

Similar thing exists now in TW and even in TW MT where certain older gear/enchants/gems are highly sought after because the throughput (even with scaling) makes them better than the average gear.

Which just makes me hate being scaled down all the more.

[ellieg]

What about this:
Epic dungeons (+15 difficulty)
No timer
Queueable
Same rewards as +15 level

M+ same as now

So less difficulty but same rewards? Naw

[erifwodahs]

I found difficult dungeons more enjoyable when the difficulty came from balance (early Cataclysm) instead of time (Mythic+).

Timer requires way better execution from you, as you have to deal with all threats at once instead of removing them from encounter.

[Relgzyh]

You can already play without a timer, just deplete the key, it's the same reward. Stop giving excuses for being bad or simply not enjoying a gamemode, the timer is what creates the difficulty, without it, you already have normal dungeons that's suitable for you.

[kaminaris]

You can already play without a timer, just deplete the key, it's the same reward. Stop giving excuses for being bad or simply not enjoying a gamemode, the timer is what creates the difficulty, without it, you already have normal dungeons that's suitable for you.

If timer "creates" difficulty then its a shit content with artificially inflated difficulty.

What makes interesting difficulty is reaction times, strategies and its execution. Timer is just lazy design.

Imagine if souls games removed 90% of boss damage but added a timer which upon expiration makes boss one shot you with unavoidable aoe - its that kind of thing.

[Ktperry]

Leave Mythic Plus the F alone.

[Jester Joe]

If timer "creates" difficulty then its a shit content with artificially inflated difficulty.

What makes interesting difficulty is reaction times, strategies and its execution. Timer is just lazy design.

Imagine if souls games removed 90% of boss damage but added a timer which upon expiration makes boss one shot you with unavoidable aoe - its that kind of thing.

The timer isn't what makes difficulty, it's just intended to measure your skill and gear to see how much higher you earn to push.

You can't just leave out the fact that the timer is always the same no matter what for a dungeon, but the difficulty scale comes from the increase in damage and health from each key stone level. Hence your comparison isn't really applicable.

[Biomega]

I found difficult dungeons more enjoyable when the difficulty came from balance (early Cataclysm) instead of time (Mythic+).

The problem is, that doesn't scale. That's the whole idea behind M+.

You may remember a great time tackling Cataclysm heroics in starter gear (and that WAS fun, to be sure), yet in that same vein you also have to acknowledge that as soon as you got some better gear those same dungeons became an absolute joke. That's been one of the recurring problems of dungeons in the past, and is the whole reason a scaling system like M+ was introduced. But those systems more or less require a timer to work properly.

[ellieg]

If timer "creates" difficulty then its a shit content with artificially inflated difficulty.

Thats a real nice subjective opinion but definitely not a fact.

What makes interesting difficulty is reaction times, strategies and its execution. Timer is just lazy design.

When you get into higher keys, you are forced to double pull. Now there's more mechanics going on at once. Seems interesting.

Having the timer requires you to have a good strategic route.

And execute it well

Imagine if souls games removed 90% of boss damage but added a timer which upon expiration makes boss one shot you with unavoidable aoe - its that kind of thing.

Sorta like enrage timers on bosses.

But the timer dsnt kill u. Just means u didn't rank the key up.

[Loveliest]

Aside from the debate of os this ok or not, I have a question. Who would benefit from this and why?

Because we're not talking about ppl doing keys past 15, right? Ppl who do that do it for score and glory or whatever. So is it for those who currently can't time a 15? And for? To get Mythic loot in a chest?
Hmm but to counter the timer, you'd have to make it really hard. Like hardmode hard in mechagon or tazavesh. Do we genuinely think someone who has issues with doing a timed 15 for whatever reasons could do a hm mechagon at the time of release?
From my general perception, I would say no. I would say ppl who do hardmodes, push 16 torgast the moment it is available and do gauntlet 8 torghast for achievement are the same ppl who are ok with M+, even if these features have no timer. But I may be wrong, so I would like other opinions.

[ellieg]

Aside from the debate of os this ok or not, I have a question. Who would benefit from this and why?

Because we're not talking about ppl doing keys past 15, right? Ppl who do that do it for score and glory or whatever. So is it for those who currently can't time a 15? And for? To get Mythic loot in a chest?
Hmm but to counter the timer, you'd have to make it really hard. Like hardmode hard in mechagon or tazavesh. Do we genuinely think someone who has issues with doing a timed 15 for whatever reasons could do a hm mechagon at the time of release?
From my general perception, I would say no. I would say ppl who do hardmodes, push 16 torgast the moment it is available and do gauntlet 8 torghast for achievement are the same ppl who are ok with M+, even if these features have no timer. But I may be wrong, so I would like other opinions.

I agree. I honestly don't think the ppl pushing to have the timer removed, have thought it out this far. Really think they believe that everything would remain exactly the same as it is now, except no timer. No other adjustments. As of getting 278s wasn't easy enough already lol.

[Loveliest]

I found difficult dungeons more enjoyable when the difficulty came from balance (early Cataclysm) instead of time (Mythic+).

We lost most of our casuals in the guild at the start of Cata. They weren't able to:
1. Finish a hc for VP, it was taking them too long and ppl kept quitting. And they kept replacing but they could be in there for hours and still not finish. I went to help one of our guild group and I had to kick and replace one of the dpses because we simply could not finish the dungeon after 2 hrs, as their awarness and reaction was very bad (grim batol, valiona boss)
2. Because 10m had the same lockout as 25m, we could no longer carry them in 25 to get them some gear. So things would not improve for them so they just quit.

That's the thing. We're talking about making changes for casuals, but these changes would only drive them away. Making things harder and removing the timer would place casuals in the exact same place - they would not be able to do it.
It all got nerfed 3 times in a few weeks, but it was already too late. Those who don't remember this either got lucky with gear, started playing later or had a good group of friends to play with.


You can't give gear withot things being hard, by whatever method you want (timer, mechanics etc). People who have issues with timer are very likely to have issues with anything hard. People quit when others fail, whether it's because it looks like you can't make the timer or that the ppl in your party fail mechanics. There would be no "let's do this in 3hrs". Group would disband much sooner, let's be real. There is no slow and chill. Whether the timer is there or not, there is still a level of tolerance that lowers the longer you stay.

[kaminaris]

When you get into higher keys, you are forced to double pull. Now there's more mechanics going on at once. Seems interesting.

Having the timer requires you to have a good strategic route.

And execute it well

I have been in higher keys, high enough to put me in top 100. Nothing really changes with timer except that if you make mistake you search for another key. What is worse, you can't even retry it like you could in CMs.

Sorta like enrage timers on bosses.

But the timer dsnt kill u. Just means u didn't rank the key up.

No, not like enrage timer, first of enrage timer does not start ticking until you pull boss, second you simply don't see it unless you play some weird composition. Enrage timer is not comparable.

- - - Updated - - -

Aside from the debate of os this ok or not, I have a question. Who would benefit from this and why?

Because we're not talking about ppl doing keys past 15, right? Ppl who do that do it for score and glory or whatever. So is it for those who currently can't time a 15? And for? To get Mythic loot in a chest?
Hmm but to counter the timer, you'd have to make it really hard. Like hardmode hard in mechagon or tazavesh. Do we genuinely think someone who has issues with doing a timed 15 for whatever reasons could do a hm mechagon at the time of release?
From my general perception, I would say no. I would say ppl who do hardmodes, push 16 torgast the moment it is available and do gauntlet 8 torghast for achievement are the same ppl who are ok with M+, even if these features have no timer. But I may be wrong, so I would like other opinions.

Hardmode in mechagon was AMAZING, one of the best experiences I had. Best part? Doing Hertz-Locker while it was still hard.

[ellieg]

I have been in higher keys, high enough to put me in top 100. Nothing really changes with timer except that if you make mistake you search for another key. What is worse, you can't even retry it like you could in CMs.




No, not like enrage timer, first of enrage timer does not start ticking until you pull boss, second you simply don't see it unless you play some weird composition. Enrage timer is not comparable.

- - - Updated - - -



Hardmode in mechagon was AMAZING, one of the best experiences I had. Best part? Doing Hertz-Locker while it was still hard.

So you don't pull more groups at a time in high key compared to low keys? Just 1 pack at a time like you would if time wasn't a consideration at all?

Timer doesn't start ticking until u put the key in. Treat the key like 1 event. Every different pull is just a dif boss phase. Gotta get thru the final phase before the "enrage" hits.

And of course u don't see enrage timers unless u play some weird comp. The enrage timer is there to prevent the weird comp. Just like the timer in m+ is there to prevent u from bringing all cc classes and sapping, sleeping, trapping every mob but one in a pull, or bringing double tank / healer. I'm glad u recognize the function of these timers

[kaminaris]

So you don't pull more groups at a time in high key compared to low keys? Just 1 pack at a time like you would if time wasn't a consideration at all?

You know when you are good you can pull even more groups in lower keys right?

Timer doesn't start ticking until u put the key in. Treat the key like 1 event. Every different pull is just a dif boss phase. Gotta get thru the final phase before the "enrage" hits.

Yeah with exception that you dont kill waves of mobs till encounter lasts 40 minutes and nobody really see the enrage unless like couple of people are already dead.

And of course u don't see enrage timers unless u play some weird comp. The enrage timer is there to prevent the weird comp. Just like the timer in m+ is there to prevent u from bringing all cc classes and sapping, sleeping, trapping every mob but one in a pull, or bringing double tank / healer. I'm glad u recognize the function of these timers

If timer would be designed to prevent that, it would be 1-1:30h and you would still get higher key if you managed to clear dungeon so no, you don't understand the difference.

You know that if boss dies in his enrage then its still a kill right ?

[ellieg]

You know when you are good you can pull even more groups in lower keys right?



Yeah with exception that you dont kill waves of mobs till encounter lasts 40 minutes and nobody really see the enrage unless like couple of people are already dead.


If timer would be designed to prevent that, it would be 1-1:30h and you would still get higher key if you managed to clear dungeon so no, you don't understand the difference.

You know that if boss dies in his enrage then its still a kill right ?

The point is with the scaling hp of the mobs, the timer forces u to pull extra in the higher keys. Wouldn't have to do that without a timer. Therefor the timer makes u play against more mechanics simultaneously. Obvious you can pull more in lower keys too but u aren't forced to.

Just because the event is longer doesn't mean its not comparable.

You arent making any sense with your last point. No it dsnt need to be 1-1.5 hrs. Where did u get that from? The timer prevents weird comps and strats.

You know if you complete the dungeon after the timer you still get the vault progress and loot right?

[Nachtigal]

Ad hominem, look it up. If you don't have an argument just attack the person so you can win.

Literally that guy's entire post boiled down to his subjective opinion is fact.

I'm sure you've got a term for what you did to what I was trying to say in your fancy book of flashy words to try and win an internet debate. Look it up. Just stop man, you're kinda coming off as a roided out nerd, dreaming of the day he becomes relevant because he "gotcha'd" some random dude voicing his opinion on the internet. You were disingenuous from the start. You, and I, and everybody else knows WoW's world content is severely lacking in substance. You tried to make it about rewards. Games shouldn't be made explicitly for "rewards". Once upon a time, games were made to have a good time, enjoy a story. The visualization of novels.

[kaminaris]

The point is with the scaling hp of the mobs, the timer forces u to pull extra in the higher keys. Wouldn't have to do that without a timer. Therefor the timer makes u play against more mechanics simultaneously. Obvious you can pull more in lower keys too but u aren't forced to.

Doesn't matter if you are "forced" or not. All you have to smash buttons fast, so much for difficulty.

Just because the event is longer doesn't mean its not comparable.

You arent making any sense with your last point. No it dsnt need to be 1-1.5 hrs. Where did u get that from? The timer prevents weird comps and strats.

You know if you complete the dungeon after the timer you still get the vault progress and loot right?

It absolutely is not comparable, from a simple fact that vast majority don't see enrage timer while plenty of people fail time in M+.

Loot is kinda irrelevant, your key is dead, you can't progress, you can't retry, meanwhile when boss dies in enrage you can go to next one (or retry exact same boss if you fail).

[cparle87]

I'm sure you've got a term for what you did to what I was trying to say in your fancy book of flashy words to try and win an internet debate. Look it up. Just stop man, you're kinda coming off as a roided out nerd, dreaming of the day he becomes relevant because he "gotcha'd" some random dude voicing his opinion on the internet. You were disingenuous from the start. You, and I, and everybody else knows WoW's world content is severely lacking in substance. You tried to make it about rewards. Games shouldn't be made explicitly for "rewards". Once upon a time, games were made to have a good time, enjoy a story. The visualization of novels.

Glad to know you have no argument but attacking the person. Welcome to ignore.