I'll be honest, I'm not a big fan of the old talents coming back.

[Unholyground]

If you've played legion these talent trees are essentially the same as the artifact weapon trees, very similar. However this allows classes to have more build diversity over all. Currently you only choose talents that are available to your spec and that ruins the fun of actually being a class and not a spec. This new system has a class tree with a bunch of different things from other specs and a few custom things that are class specific and you also get a tree that is spec specific and put points in both as needed.

[NihilSustinet]

They seem confusing, and I feel like I'll be stressed out by them, I've played Classic and have quit as the talents seem too extreme and such.
I prefer the WOD era talents as I started in Late MOP and boosted a fury warrior in warlords of Draenor, and I might miss the pick a talent, and boom, you read the thing and you pick a talent. That seems easy, but with this other system, I don't understand I'm not sure.

old school wow's super basic talent system is too much for you? damn. avoid PoE like the plague, then.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Don't worry about them tbh. If you like the flexibility you'll probably get to have some fun, if not just pick a guide, someone will figure out the best config pretty soon!

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I think what's even more telling is that the big hardcore group of wow world first raiders that was going to come in and show FF14 players how it done came in..... 37th in the savage world first race... and then they took their toys and went home and didn't bother trying the ultimate that just came out.

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But nobody is saying "Make wow more casual by taking away mythic raids". They are saying "Can we have something to do too?" This equivalency you are trying to draw is very strange.

I never said anything about mythic raids or removing them? I haven't set foot in one in quite some time??

[NineSpine]

I never said anything about mythic raids or removing them? I haven't set foot in one in quite some time??

I didn't say you did? Maybe you should try making points that are more in line with the people you are replying to? You seem like you aren't really engaging with the people you reply to.

[Berkilak]

Can't it also be possible that people like different things?

I don't get the obsession with discovering something you like and then suddenly believing that everyone else is wrong if they don't have the same eiphany. It's weirdly patronizing, isn't it? Like you've discovered a secret truth they are just too stupid to grasp?

Do you always feel that way when someone likes a tv show or something you don't?

I don't feel that way at all. That's simply the viewpoint thrown at me when I try to explain to people that maybe there can be more to the MMO genre than the loot treadmill. That's not to say that the loot treadmill itself is illegitimate - I go for a run every now and again myself. The point is that the genre can be so much more, and WoW tends to give people a very myopic view of the possibilities.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

You replied to me with some comment about mythic raids?!?

Anyway whatever, yall have fun thinking people are dumb for liking something you don't.

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I don't feel that way at all. That's simply the viewpoint thrown at me when I try to explain to people that maybe there can be more to the MMO genre than the loot treadmill. That's not to say that the loot treadmill itself is illegitimate - I go for a run every now and again myself. The point is that the genre can be so much more, and WoW tends to give people a very myopic view of the possibilities.

Fair! This is how I see d20 and D&D stuff, but I realized long ago that no one likes sanctimony or evangelism so I just let them have fun and don't worry about it

[Berkilak]

Fair! This is how I see d20 and D&D stuff, but I realized long ago that no one likes sanctimony or evangelism so I just let them have fun and don't worry about it

The point is that any suggestions for content outside of what already exists is shot down instantly.

[dimitrov]

What puzzles me, I remember there was a video from one of the devs back before the change explaining why talent trees are trash and the "pick and go" is far superior. Now they tell us the opposite and people defend it. We are simpleton monkeys, aren't we?

Bruh, this neverending cycle repeats over and over again through the history of WoW. This is just one example but if you think.. 80% of all changes are going back to something that was removed before. First they implement something new, explain you how good it is have it and then 2 years later they return the old one and explain how superior to the current way it is

[Diaphin]

And that's fine, too. With FFXIV, you can settle on a class that syncs with your personal preferences and pace and be competitive. I can only dream of a WoW that has freed so many resources up by reverting to the talent system that they can develop the breadth of content that FFXIV has.

Depends on, really, its not like the game has perfect class balancing and I always seen outliers and the game is pretty restrictive in terms of group compositions, if you play content which needs any level of organisation which is pretty scarce, so no idea where the breadth of content that FFXIV has comes from. I play both and the one thing I'm always overwhelmed with is how much content you can do in World of Warcraft, its insane, FFXIV doesn't even come close. And to be honest, class diversity is also kind of bigger in WoW, classes tend to play much more distinctly from each other in terms of their gameplay loop than in FF14, especially the healers and tanks.

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Don't bother. This forum is full of people that think FF14 has no content, despite the, churning out massive patch after massive patch very 3-4 months.

It isn't that much though, if you are really looking at what you get. Sure, right now you have an ultimate that keeps people busy for a while, but when it comes to its alliance raids, then its LFR Style Content, funny for the first time but then it becomes a slog you need to do every week and then there is the typical Eureka-Style zone that is a massive oldschool MMO-grind that needs an entire party to not be cumbersome. Otherwise its usually just the current EX Trial and waiting for the next raid tier. And the beast tribe daylies I guess. And tbh, I played both and with FF14, it usually ends up with me being bored with raid logging and having to do the same daily roulette dungeons that get boring very fast after some time, while WoW just has much more to do in every direction, be it casual content, leveling, doing legacy raids, outdoor stuff, m+, raids, pvp. FF14 isn't close to WoW yet as something you play for a prolonged time tbh.

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very true, this will just have them balance the tree throughout the expansion but that is wayyyy less work than it was in BFA and SL...before they essentially started creating infinite compounding systems that would make things impossible. So far im really liking what im seeing of DF. its not some amazing thing but it shows FINALLY that we get some sort of sanity when it comes to player power. i love simming and min maxing as much as the next person but its gotten to be so very complicated lol

Oh yeah, I'm hella excited for it too. Especially since it seems like the talent trees will even be build in a way that makes it possible to chose multiple covenant powers as talents, which I guess could make for some crazy combinations. And tbh, I kinda like the systems we had in WoW over the last few years, the problem for me personally is more, I only really started to enjoy them at the end of the expansion when Blizzard had everything sorted and they make it pretty bothersome to try and play alts.

[oplawlz]

Completely true. But this is rarely how you see this dichotomy expressed. More often, it's someone innocuously suggesting that WoW implement (insert non-raid feature here) and the usual frothing masses telling them that they're playing the wrong game, that they should go back to X game, that their idea would be a waste of resources and so on... they're gatekeeping the laser-focus of WoW to the point that the actual developers themselves lost sight of anything beyond the loot treadmill.

I mean I can see your perspective here, but . . . people bought wow and invested vast swaths of their lives in it because they like what it is. It's not unreasonable for them to ask that the devs maintain what they so heavily invested themselves in. Maybe if players want things that other games focus on they really should just play those other games. It's like me buying madden and insisting that there be dragons added and calling the developers lazy for not giving me a sword.
I say this as someone who hasn't spent more than 20 hours raiding in any expansion since Cata, btw, so I have no dog in this race.

[napoleonmayo]

The old talents are not coming back. The one and only thing that makes this look like old talents is that it's a tree shape. There are no 1% dmg to arcane missiles or some other similar shit like there was back in the day. Everything on these new trees is meaningful and impactful.

I would love for you to have a source for this lol.
We havent seen ANY talents yet, so what you just said is complete and utter hogwash

[GreenJesus]

Explain how?

I don't understand how it would be a disaster, if that is the case. Or do you just feel it will be bad?

You don't understand how every DPS in a pug mythic+ group not talenting into an interrupt because they hoped someone else did is an issue?

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Don't worry, in another few years you and all the people who don't like it will have yelled so loudly that they will just do another kneejerk spin and we will be back to whatever it is you would prefer.

[Molvonos]

You don't understand how every DPS in a pug mythic+ group not talenting into an interrupt because they hoped someone else did is an issue?

Depends. If Blizzard incentivizes interrupts? They started doing that with the Night Fae soulbind, where if you interrupt, you get a buff.

I also don't pug high keys because I actually want a better chance at finishing them on time, if not two to three chesting them, so it didn't dawn on me that'd be an issue.

[Eurhetemec]

Speaking to this more specifically, you also have players who could get better and can sustain those more demanding rotations, but they come out of their gaming sessions utterly drained, mentally. And they just stop playing entirely. They like being on top, but the effort to maintain that position just isn't worth the effort on a personal level. With tighter balance, they can find something that agrees with their pace and still remain competitive, especially when you start making gear choices to compliment their personal style.

Outside of hardcore raiding progression, I should be able to log in and feel mentally refreshed by getting a little leisure activity in. I don't think that has been true of WoW for well over a decade.

Yes this is exactly what I've seen. You have players, which has times has included me, who can play some tricky spec, but the amount of effort and focus and awake-ness required means you're drained and if you're playing after a day of work and stuff, it's particularly bad. And exactly, the next thing is, that guy doesn't log on one day, and everyone is wondering where he's gone, and either he doesn't come back, or he comes back but he's not playing that character any more, he's done with that, now he's playing something else. Which, non-coincidentally, is always something reasonably easy/pleasant to play.

Re: refreshed, absolutely, and it was Cataclysm that destroyed that for me. I was able to get it back in Legion with a couple of characters/specs, but BfA and SL sort of chipped away at it. Whereas with FFXIV, I get that with several classes - not all of them - the only healer that works for me in that game is White Mage for example, but they work great.

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You don't understand how every DPS in a pug mythic+ group not talenting into an interrupt because they hoped someone else did is an issue?

Because of this issue I am extremely skeptical that DPS will be able to choose not to spec into interrupts. Because if they can, there's a certain kind of DPS player, who thinks they're amazing, and is usually basically competent at making BIG NUMBERS appear (but often terrible about standing in fire etc.), who will absolutely point-blank refuse to ever spec in an interrupt, because "the tank should be doing it" (never mind that the tank is doing it but more interrupts are needed), and because his sims tell him that he can to 2.7% more DPS by putting the talent point elsewhere. And indeed it would be very easy to end up with 2-3 of such people in you group. Shit, even if you could see talent trees, you couldn't check because they could switch at any time. I think even putting it against utility would be a bad idea, because if that utility is gap-closing or something, the same guy will pick it every time over an interrupt.

If they did make it optional they'd basically have to design all interruptible abilities to not actually "need" to be interrupted because they're so inconsequential. Which I doubt they will do.

[Vakna]

I would love for you to have a source for this lol.
We havent seen ANY talents yet, so what you just said is complete and utter hogwash

Look man, it's not my fault you don't keep up with the news. It was in one of the interviews that Ion did after the expansion announcement, I'm not gonna scroll back through all the posts looking for it just for you. But he basically said that all the circle nodes (the passives) are going to be meaningful things we have had in the past such as conduit effects, artifact traits or azerite traits, but that they will be less powerful than say a legendary power or a current level 50 passive talent. None of them are going to be the dogshit 1% dmg to x or 0.2 seconds cast time off of x that we had in the past.

If you choose not to believe that, it's your right to do so of course, but I'm not making anything up, I'm just repeating what I read.

[Eurhetemec]

It is weird to see Blizzard making changes to the game which make it less accessible but I'm curious to see how it'll pan out. The idea of allowing specs to have access to talents which they traditionally have not had access to is one that intrigues me quite a bit but also one I could see going pretty poorly if they fail to balance accordingly.

I think the idea is that talent trees don't necessarily make the game meaningfully less accessible in the modern day, because of how easy it is to get guides and so on.

They could also probably have a "default allocation" button, which will cause endless whingey threads because it won't be totally 100% optimal, but might be useful to players who aren't sure what they want or don't want to make decisions. And if they make it possible to import talent trees it'll be even easier, though it'll pretty funny how many people will be wandering around with talents they probably don't even know about - "Why do I keep getting this weird buff?" - because you're talented into it buddy.

It's definitely a bit of an experiment, both technical and social. Hopefully it goes decently.

[NineSpine]

Depends on, really, its not like the game has perfect class balancing and I always seen outliers and the game is pretty restrictive in terms of group compositions, if you play content which needs any level of organisation which is pretty scarce, so no idea where the breadth of content that FFXIV has comes from. I play both and the one thing I'm always overwhelmed with is how much content you can do in World of Warcraft, its insane, FFXIV doesn't even come close. And to be honest, class diversity is also kind of bigger in WoW, classes tend to play much more distinctly from each other in terms of their gameplay loop than in FF14, especially the healers and tanks.

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It isn't that much though, if you are really looking at what you get. Sure, right now you have an ultimate that keeps people busy for a while, but when it comes to its alliance raids, then its LFR Style Content, funny for the first time but then it becomes a slog you need to do every week and then there is the typical Eureka-Style zone that is a massive oldschool MMO-grind that needs an entire party to not be cumbersome. Otherwise its usually just the current EX Trial and waiting for the next raid tier. And the beast tribe daylies I guess. And tbh, I played both and with FF14, it usually ends up with me being bored with raid logging and having to do the same daily roulette dungeons that get boring very fast after some time, while WoW just has much more to do in every direction, be it casual content, leveling, doing legacy raids, outdoor stuff, m+, raids, pvp. FF14 isn't close to WoW yet as something you play for a prolonged time tbh.

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Oh yeah, I'm hella excited for it too. Especially since it seems like the talent trees will even be build in a way that makes it possible to chose multiple covenant powers as talents, which I guess could make for some crazy combinations. And tbh, I kinda like the systems we had in WoW over the last few years, the problem for me personally is more, I only really started to enjoy them at the end of the expansion when Blizzard had everything sorted and they make it pretty bothersome to try and play alts.

All of the content in FF14 is evergreen. WoW deprecates content as soon as the next patch hits. You aren't being honest, especially when you talk about "legacy raids" in wow being a feature compared to FF14 where all of the raids can be run as current content.

[Coldkil]

The new talent systems is just good to have. And the reason is not to give players more choices (though it can be worked in) but to make a system that's actually persistent through expansions.

The main issue with the current one is that it's basically been neglected for years. Also, it's not a talent system as it's just "pick the strongest option" (but again, it's mostly because it's been neglected). Anyway the illusion of choice and more engagement a player can have with a talent tree is certainly something worth that make you feel more invested into your characters.

The problems in the end lie in the whole expansion wide systems that look nice on paper and sounded awesome in Legion only to realize your character was good because of such systems and once removed it sucked ass to play. That's why the new talent trees replacing these systems are a good thing. Your class will feel good because it's your class and not because some random thing fell from the sky and you're suddendly more powerful.

It's basically a perfect framework to work on and makes both adding new spells and pruning bloat much easier and less impactful. I don't think it's going to be perfect at launch and i see why people don't like it but in the end it's just a better way to implement new gameplay mechanics to classes without having to reinvent the wheel every two years.

Then it's all about the actua stuff that's going onto the trees. They mentioned giving an interrupt to everyone through talents - which is a good thing. Stuff like raid buffs can also be talents: you want to get them if no one is providing cause it's going to be a bigger raid dps increase than not having them and would solve the issue that at the moment you need specific classes to cover for many of them.

Talents should be things like this - something you'd like to have but not necessarily every time. Given how you can save multiple presets and switch them on the fly it's not even going to be a problem of putting all the points back at max level. It's literally a dropdown menu.