10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[Rageonit]

Not if the non timed version capped out at +15 where the rewards end.

If I could decide I would make Normal max level mode M0 Heroic M+8 and Mythic +15 all without timers and queuable. Current M+ with the keys and all pushing fun would be unchanged.

Like I've said it could have a degenerate influence on current m+ group forming, because why do a timed 15 if you can do untimed? So I think different reward scaling is the minimum. Still not sure if it wouldn't cause a lot of logistical problems for many players because of the division of the players between two different game modes. WoW is supposedly dying; you don't want to divise playerbase even more. In a perfect world you want just one mode, so every player is available for group forming.

[Lathspell]

Don't the people who like the timer do 16+ anyway because of score and prestige?

[Azharok]

Don't the people who like the timer do 16+ anyway because of score and prestige?

I mean everyone can play at their lvl, that's the whole point of the timer and key levels.

[Nymrohd]

Because then those folk who run the non timed version would have the gear that would make them "pass" in the timed version, and we'd have more people not belonging in the correct bracket playing alongside us and bricking keys ?

Dude, just look at the rating, why are you only looking at ilvl? People can get the ilvl from Heroic raids or PvP and have no idea what to do in the dungeon. I have alts that are at 260 entirely from world content without stepping foot in an instance

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Like I've said it could have a degenerate influence on current m+ group forming, because why do a timed 15 if you can do untimed? So I think different reward scaling is the minimum. Still not sure if it wouldn't cause a lot of logistical problems for many players because of the division of the players between two different game modes. WoW is supposedly dying; you don't want to divise playerbase even more. In a perfect world you want just one mode, so every player is available for group forming.

The untimed would take much longer though or at least that is the expectation. People pressed for time will choose the timed one. Also keep in mind we are having cross faction grouping very soon. That will significantly increase the number of people available for dungeons so dividing the playerbase to an extent will not be that much of a problem.

[Rageonit]

Don't the people who like the timer do 16+ anyway because of score and prestige?

No, not always. Higher than that. People who go for gear and time a 15, will prolly want to do the 16 for vault and gear anyway. A tank that needs vault will join a 16, 17 or 18 anyway. You lose that player from the queue if he can just go and do an untimed 15. I'd wager real "key pushing" starts above 20.

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Dude, just look at the rating, why are you only looking at ilvl? People can get the ilvl from Heroic raids or PvP and have no idea what to do in the dungeon. I have alts that are at 260 entirely from world content without stepping foot in an instance

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The untimed would take much longer though or at least that is the expectation. People pressed for time will choose the timed one. Also keep in mind we are having cross faction grouping very soon. That will significantly increase the number of people available for dungeons so dividing the playerbase to an extent will not be that much of a problem.

Hopefully cross faction helps, but it remains to be seen.

[Lathspell]

So in essence no one except "real key pushers" actually likes the timer and would choose the non timed one if it was available. Sounds like something is wrong with the current system.

[erifwodahs]

Because then those folk who run the non timed version would have the gear that would make them "pass" in the timed version, and we'd have more people not belonging in the correct bracket playing alongside us and bricking keys ?

lol, gear is absolutely irrelevant. You get max gear from +15, it's free loot. If anyone selects players by their ilvl and not score, god bless them, they are still stuck in WotLK

[Nymrohd]

lol, gear is absolutely irrelevant. You get max gear from +15, it's free loot. If anyone selects players by their ilvl and not score, god bless them, they are still stuck in WotLK

I mean people do select players by their ilvl. Just not for high level keys. But if you want to get your rating up, you can absolutely get groups at the +2-9 range on ilvl alone in my experience.

[Rageonit]

So in essence no one except "real key pushers" actually likes the timer and would choose the non timed one if it was available. Sounds like something is wrong with the current system.

Why can't you enjoy timer in 15 while also wanting gear? I enjoy it regardless of level, I like the tension it provides. I like to know that when I go to Mists, after 30 mins its either done or depleted, no "let's try one more pull". I enjoy helping under geared friends in keys too high for their ilvl/skill.

[erifwodahs]

So in essence no one except "real key pushers" actually likes the timer and would choose the non timed one if it was available. Sounds like something is wrong with the current system.

I would say that non-timed version of the dungeons would have to be much more mechanically complex to justify dropping ilvl so close to HC ilvl and trust me, people who care about a timer in a +15 care about it not because they don't have the dps, but because they can't execute more than one mechanic at the same time which is what a timer pushes - execution of pulls/skips. I ran a PF on my alt yesterday, our dmg was crap and tank was doing literally straight line route, absolutely unhinged. We timed the key despite of doing lower than S2 level of DPS due to the sheer throughput, however shit it was while people were fucking up most basic boss mechanics. Remove timer, add more mechanics and you will have absolute shit show in the bracket where people still care about a timer in +15.

[Nymrohd]

I would say that non-timed version of the dungeons would have to be much more mechanically complex to justify dropping ilvl so close to HC ilvl and trust me, people who care about a timer in a +15 care about it not because they don't have the dps, but because they can't execute more than one mechanic at the same time which is what a timer pushes - execution of pulls/skips. I ran a PF on my alt yesterday, our dmg was crap and tank was doing literally straight line route, absolutely unhinged. We timed the key despite of doing lower than S2 level of DPS due to the sheer throughput, however shit it was while people were fucking up most basic boss mechanics. Remove timer, add more mechanics and you will have absolute shit show in the bracket where people still care about a timer in +15.

Were dungeons queues and raids in BfA completely empty because casuals could get heroic ilvl loot (their choice with multiple stats, some of the best trinkets and azerite armor combos) by just joining war mode and doing the assault quests for conquest cap every week?

[erifwodahs]

I mean people do select players by their ilvl. Just not for high level keys. But if you want to get your rating up, you can absolutely get groups at the +2-9 range on ilvl alone in my experience.

I guess thats fair. I mean, anyway, gear is really irrelevant, but I can't see blizzard justifying ilvl so close to hc ilvl in a non-timed dungeon which has same mechanics as current dungeons.

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Were dungeons queues and raids in BfA completely empty because casuals could get heroic ilvl loot (their choice with multiple stats, some of the best trinkets and azerite armor combos) by just joining war mode and doing the assault quests for conquest cap every week?

War mode reward was fucked up and shouldn't have happened btw, that's why it's not there now. Also this example would be like saying that m+ would have a loot lockout, because currently you can spam it to get items. Weekly caps were single item a week.

[Iain]

Does +15 difficulty really have meaning in the current state?

If +15 difficult isn't meaningful then that's even less grounds to offer it without a timer. But you're not asking to make +15 difficulty more meaningful, you're asking to make it less meaningful.

[Lolites]

There is no reason why both a non-timing M+ and timing M+ can't co-exist.

well if the nontimed offer MUCH worse rewards, sure

[Azharok]

lol, gear is absolutely irrelevant. You get max gear from +15, it's free loot. If anyone selects players by their ilvl and not score, god bless them, they are still stuck in WotLK

Not everyone who engages in M+ runs 15s and up. According to Wowhead, 15% of profiles had KSM in season one, and 17% in season two so a very small portion of players actually run 15s and up and based on how easy it is to get loot this season, it's not because of ilvl it is because they aren't good at pressing buttons and dodging stuff.

It would muddy the water for the folks running the timed content before the part where "gear is irrelevant". Not everyone is going to time 20s and up, the whole concept is that you play at your level, and every level provides a challenge. You guys are proposing a separate "hard mode dungeon" with no timer that gives equal loot and you can't see that this might bleed into the timed content with people wanting to dip their toes and bricking keys ?

[chiddie]

Because the whole idea of progression is only tied to your gear but also your skill as a player. If you want better loot, get better at the game. A well oiled group can time a 15 in 230-240ilvl gear, which makes timing them in 250+ ilvl (which is attainable without stepping inside any instanced content) pretty simple with regards to dps checks. Now we can argue that not all players are equally skilled (and that's okay too). Besides you get max ilvl loot wether you deplete or not so I don't see how the timer is relevant. Post "15 DoS going for complete" and then take however long you want, nobody cares.

In order to get the best rewards you need to do the challenge, if you're not up to the challenge, you don't deserve the reward.

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Decent players with little time will recognize this early on, and push their own keys to cut down on waiting times. If you're not willing to devote some time to this hobby, maybe find another one. I don't understand why everyone is suggesting that removing the timer would suddenly open up spare time for people. I don't have the time to wipe 2 hours on stradama because people can't dodge the tentacles. I'll leave an M0 group on the 3rd wipe of that nature if the boss isn't dying anytime soon.

If the timer is on it's way to a deplete and I don't need the loot, I'll bail at some point (usually someone will have bailed before me though). My problem is people get loot shoved down their throats which allows them to brute force most keys (to a point) and they magically end up in the bracket where you actually need to dodge stuff because no amount of healing will save you. Those players brick keys, they haven't learned anything while climbing the ladder :

- Not kicking anything
- Breaking CC on mobs during inspiring or Amarth
- Not placing properly the hook on Stitchwork
- Not CCing the Murlocs that spawn fishsticks, or completely ignoring fishsticks and wondering why the trash won't die.
- Not dispelling harmful spells
- Not playing boss mechanics

I could probably add another 100 of those, but you get the idea. With a decent tank/healer, DPS players wont die to most stuff until you get into the 15s and up. The main problem is that the "filter" that used to exist in dungeons and raids, isn't as strong. People progress their gear at an accelerated rate and at some point they just hit this massive wall and don't understand why they can't get past it because they haven't learned anything skill-wise.

Decent player with little time will just skip them entirely because they’ll soon see they spend more time in trying to start the dungeon than to finish the dungeon in time.

That’s exactly what I did and I can assure you I’m not the only one.

I have ZERO issues with M+ difficulty, I have issues with anything that isn’t “boom I’m in” within 5 mins max from when my toon has been loaded. That’s obviously not the case if you run M+ in pugs.

[Lolites]

What about this:
Epic dungeons (+15 difficulty)
No timer
Queueable
Same rewards as +15 level

M+ same as now

just say you want gear without work, its clear anyway, why not just admit it...

if +15 without time give the same rewards as +7-8, then im fine with it, bcs people capable of timing +7 can do +15 over time, no issue

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If I could decide I would make Normal max level mode M0 Heroic M+8 and Mythic +15 all without timers and queuable. Current M+ with the keys and all pushing fun would be unchanged.

lol, m+15 IN TIME doesnt give you mythic level gear but you wanted it from untimed run?
as i said, you just want free gear, so f*ck that, no thanks...
if untimed should give mythic gear it should be from +30 MINIMUM, +15 without timer shouldnt go beyond normal raid rewards

[Lathspell]

well if the nontimed offer MUCH worse rewards, sure

What is the reason that the timed version should have better rewards? You can do both in the same time and the difficulty is the same. I think most runs in a non timed version would be pretty much the same length as in the timed one, just not ending in a shit show if the timer is missed or someone has to run to open the door or something for a few mins.

[dragonflight10]

Enrage timer isn't the same as the m+ timer. Making non timered 15's available through the queue would not hurt key pushers at all and it would help a lot of people who can't get invited into keys and don't want to build their own groups. In regards to raiding I would suggest merging LFR and Normal and make it queueable or guild groupable. Heroic and Mythic should stay as they are, except Mythic should have the same lockout system as Heroic.

Most of those people who don't get invited to 15 don't have the correct rating and want to be carried, they can always do lower dungeons to increase their rating.

I had a friend who reached 2k in s1 SL in both mage and pally, he was playing when all my group quit, so he did all that alone

[Lolites]

If +15 difficult isn't meaningful then that's even less grounds to offer it without a timer. But you're not asking to make +15 difficulty more meaningful, you're asking to make it less meaningful.

he is asking for gear without having to actualy try and work for it, thats pretty much the jist of all the whining...