STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[NineSpine]

Casual is players that don't stick to a set schedule and play off and on as they please. Theres your clear definitive line.

That's not a definitive line, at all. That is completely arbitrary. What is a set schedule? What is off and on? These are all completely meaningless.

If you wanna call the guy that logs on 16 hours a day to do every single daily and farm achieves casual because he dsnt manually form groups, you do that lol

You think theres 16 hours of content to do every day if you just do solo and queue content?

My line makes sense. It's a hard, objective line. It's not a bunch of wishy washy bullshit that anyone can move around to make mean whatever they need for their argument that minute.

[ellieg]

That's not a definitive line, at all. That is completely arbitrary. What is a set schedule? What is off and on? These are all completely meaningless.



You think theres 16 hours of content to do every day if you just do solo and queue content?

My line makes sense. It's a hard, objective line. It's not a bunch of wishy washy bullshit that anyone can move around to make mean whatever they need for their argument that minute.

Its almost like its "your line" and not actually an objective one. Especially when it goes against the literal dictionary definition.

How do you feel about double agent? The panda that levels up without picking a faction, only collecting herbs? He dsnt queue but it takes far more dedication and grinding. Is he a casual?

[NineSpine]

Its almost like its "your line" and not actually an objective one. Especially when it goes against the literally dictionary definition

I don't care. When I say "Casual", I'm referring to an objectively defined 50% of the playerbase. You can make up whatever arbitrary horseshit you want and fight with people about it instead.

[ellieg]

I don't care. When I say "Casual", I'm referring to an objectively defined 50% of the playerbase. You can make up whatever arbitrary horseshit you want and fight with people about it instead.

So you're wrong. That's fair. Have the stats to back up the 50%? Or did you pull that number out of the same place you got your definition from?

And see my edited post. Is doubleagent casual?

[Saltysquidoon]

Casual means solo or queue based content. Once you are organizing groups, it isn't casual content anymore.

So there was no casual content in WoW before wrath?

[NineSpine]

So you're wrong. That's fair. Have the stats to back up the 50%? Or did you pull that number out of the same place you got your definition from?

And see my edited post. Is doubleagent casual?

I think we base definitions on the normal circumstance, not the fringe circumstance.

At least those of us concerned with honesty and communication do. People who are more concerned with semantics and being argumentative for the sake of it operate differently.

[VMSmith]

Casual means solo or queue based content. Once you are organizing groups, it isn't casual content anymore.

This is also how I would define casual in WoW.

During MoP, I could play from waking up until bed just farming herbs and killing Mogu for Guo-lai Cache Keys. Maybe queue for a Heroic dungeon or a Normal scenario or two at some point. Possibly do an LFR wing if I really felt up to it that day.

Calling that anything but casual simply because it took a lot of time is ridiculous.

The truth is that the gear ladder for casual content is so absurdly short that you run out of things to do pretty quickly and then you are pushed into non-casual content. The reason this happens is to accommodate M+, rated BGs, and normal+ raiding.

And this is absolutely correct, as well. I find WoW so uninteresting now because it provides so little to do, especially that's particularly fun or rewarding, without having to manually organize your activities with other people.

People like me aren't looking to be "challenged", we just want to faff about and entertain ourselves in our spare time.

Others constantly trying to define "casual" as something that means their style of play gets preferential treatment are just driving the bulk of us away from the game, and that includes the developers with their design choices. Ion says players like me are "underserved", but I don't think he understands why. They seem to think just throwing a chunk of discoverable treasures and rares at us will make us happy.

[NineSpine]

So there was no casual content in WoW before wrath?

1. The way we think of the casual distinction has changed over time.
2. Leveling? Crafting? Questing? Even with a modern definition, there was months of casual content in Vanilla.

[Kyriani]

50% of wow players never do content that isn't solo or queued. I'm calling that the casual playerbase. You call it whatever you want, because arguing about definition is boring. I'll still be the one with a clear, definitive line for what is casual.

This is me. If I can't queue for it, I don't do it. I miss the days when I could queue for heroics, get a currency, and buy high ilvl gear with it. It was simple, fun (for me), and effective. Nowadays, there's all these different difficulty levels and I can't queue for most of it so I don't do it. And when I run out of stuff to do, that I want to do, that feels worth doing, but doesn't feel obligatory, I unsub.

[NineSpine]

This is me. If I can't queue for it, I don't do it. I miss the days when I could queue for heroics, get a currency, and buy high ilvl gear with it. It was simple, fun (for me), and effective. Nowadays, there's all these different difficulty levels and I can't queue for most of it so I don't do it.

Unfortunately, people who play WOW this way (you and I) are very common but not common on forums for obvious reasons, so a lot of these people here living in their bubble actually believe the norm is to run +15s and do heroic raids.

[ellieg]

I think we base definitions on the normal circumstance, not the fringe circumstance.

At least those of us concerned with honesty and communication do. People who are more concerned with semantics and being argumentative for the sake of it operate differently.

I'm trying to have honest communication. You seem to think your definition is the universally accepted one and instantly dismissing others.

You talk abt normal circumstances but my normal and your normal are very different.

Claiming without any proof to back up your claim abt not queuing means not casual means your definition is just as worthless. Using made up facts just makes you dishonest tho

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Unfortunately, people who play WOW this way (you and I) are very common but not common on forums for obvious reasons, so a lot of these people here living in their bubble actually believe the norm is to run +15s and do heroic raids.

Are +2s and normal raids not common?

[VMSmith]

1. The way we think of the casual distinction has changed over time.
2. Leveling? Crafting? Questing? Even with a modern definition, there was months of casual content in Vanilla.

I didn't even realize raids existed until close to when BWL was released. Kept myself pretty busy just living in a fantasy world, fighting creeps and earning gold, and sometimes going to a dungeon and getting some armor. I would craft and explore, go hang out at Tarren Mill and fight for the sheer fun of it.

That first time a friend got me to go raid with them I was bored to tears and hated the entirety of it. Then they added battlegrounds and PvP became no fun. Throughout the course of WoW, the more organized things became the less I enjoyed them.

[NineSpine]

I'm trying to have honest communication. You seem to think your definition is the universally accepted one and instantly dismissing others.

You talk abt normal circumstances but my normal and your normal are very different.

Claiming without any proof to back up your claim abt not queuing means not casual means your definition is just as worthless. Using made up facts just makes you dishonest tho

Any definition of casual that is open to personal interpretation is worse than meaningless. It just turns into people screaming about how someone who pet battles for ten minutes a week and someone who mythic raids are both casual or how someone who does world quests is hardcore. It descends into pointlessness and mental masturbation. The only line that makes anything approaching reasonable sense is "solo & queue" vs "organized".

Whatever percentage you personally believe only does solo and queue content is the percentage I call casual. I'm not interested in arguing, especially with someone this disinterested in anything but semantics and sophistry, over the exact percentage. I've seen 50% based on numbers drawn from the API. I'm certainly not going to spend 20 minutes digging that out again for someone who has demonstrated zero interest in an honest conversation. You'll find an excuse to dismiss it and we will be right back here again., Call it 20%, call it 80%, I don't care. That's the beauty of my definition: It doesn't matter because the line is in stone.

Don't pretend you are even attempting to be honest when you are arguing that your "normal" is a person who does pacifist leveling though herbalism. Get real.

[VMSmith]

Are +2s and normal raids not common?

None of the people I've played WoW with and become friends with has done a Mythic dungeon at all since Legion, when we only tried them because they were the new thing.

Of all those people, I'm the only one still left ever logging in and that's only because after a month or two I miss WoW enough to pop a subscription, play for a day or two, then go back to not playing for a few months.

[NineSpine]

I'm trying to have honest communication. You seem to think your definition is the universally accepted one and instantly dismissing others.

You talk abt normal circumstances but my normal and your normal are very different.

Claiming without any proof to back up your claim abt not queuing means not casual means your definition is just as worthless. Using made up facts just makes you dishonest tho

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Are +2s and normal raids not common?

The numbers I have seen are about 50% of players ever do Mythic+ and about 20% ever do normal+ raiding. It's reasonable to assume everyone raiding also does at least one mythic+. I'm not really interested in litigating the accuracy of that because it doesn't matter very much.

[VMSmith]

I'm not interested in arguing, especially with someone this disinterested in anything but semantics and sophistry

These forums are built on petty pedantry.

But, then, that's most of the internet ... where scoring technical points are the best kinds of points.

[ellieg]

Any definition of casual that is open to personal interpretation is worse than meaningless. It just turns into people screaming about how someone who pet battles for ten minutes a week and someone who mythic raids are both casual or how someone who does world quests is hardcore. It descends into pointlessness and mental masturbation. The only line that makes anything approaching reasonable sense is "solo & queue" vs "organized".

Whatever percentage you personally believe only does solo and queue content is the percentage I call casual. I'm not interested in arguing, especially with someone this disinterested in anything but semantics and sophistry, over the exact percentage. I've seen 50% based on numbers drawn from the API. I'm certainly not going to spend 20 minutes digging that out again for someone who has demonstrated zero interest in an honest conversation. You'll find an excuse to dismiss it and we will be right back here again., Call it 20%, call it 80%, I don't care. That's the beauty of my definition: It doesn't matter because the line is in stone.

Don't pretend you are even attempting to be honest when you are arguing that your "normal" is a person who does pacifist leveling though herbalism. Get real.

Ok so this is ninespinechampion.com where you set the definitions and anyone that disagrees is a waste of time. As long as we both see that.

Set schedule and randomly logging on is just as reasonable as queued vs organized

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None of the people I've played WoW with and become friends with has done a Mythic dungeon at all since Legion, when we only tried them because they were the new thing.

Of all those people, I'm the only one still left ever logging in and that's only because after a month or two I miss WoW enough to pop a subscription, play for a day or two, then go back to not playing for a few months.

Ya but none of the ppl i play with have ever queued for an lfr or done a pet battle

[NineSpine]

Ok so this is ninespinechampion.com where you set the definitions and anyone that disagrees is a waste of time. As long as we both see that.

Set schedule and randomly logging on is just as reasonable as queued vs organized

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Ya but none of the ppl i play with have ever queued for an lfr or done a pet battle

What's a set schedule? What is "randomly"? These don't mean anything unless defined. Your definition is worse than useless. It is in invitation to confusion and equivocation.

[VMSmith]

Ya but none of the ppl i play with have ever queued for an lfr or done a pet battle

I have no doubt of that, especially since it agrees with what I said as an answer to your question: Most people don't do Mythic dungeons or raid (even LFR). Also, most people don't pet battle. There are lots of things most people don't do. You asked about two of them, and I answered that question.

Also, the game doesn't funnel players into LFR and pet battles. It's designed to push everyone into organized raiding/dungeons/pvp. If LFR and pet battles were the intended endgame of the developers then your point may have had some merit in saying that LFR and pet battles should not be prioritized because most people aren't doing them. But they're not prioritized by the design.

[Tiwack]

I don't think the token alone is responsible though.

Boosting went nuts with the introduction of FOMO-content, both mid-wotlk and again late-MoP into the current seasonal FOMO-shitshow. The token is just blizz getting their cut and monopolizing RMT in their game in symbiosis with their FOMO-design.

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It's not made for the top 0.01%. It's not made for the casuals either. This is something players perpetuate to make themselves feel better.

It's now made for shareholders, and to milk the players too stubborn to take the hint and quit.

Well put, too many are blinded to their own monthly time and money investment and resulting enjoyment, just riding that sunk-cost-fallacy gambling-addiction into the sunset.