STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Royru]

I don't care what you meant when you said "a couple hours a week", it's vague. You then said 4 hours a week, fine. I gave you my answer to that question. Korthia grind was a waste of time, S1 was fine in that regards, S3 is fine in that regards. The destiny 2 crowd might be full of casuals but again, it's buy ONCE, play forever. Whereas Blizz needs MAU to keep WoW running. Blizz can lose as many subs as it wants as long as people are buying tokens to offset the loss it doesn't matter.

You haven't answered my question though.

A couple hours a week is anything but vague. That’s narrows down time played pretty well.

Also destiny 2 isn’t buy once play forever it’s a buy a full game price every year.

And you aren’t wrong blizz needs MAU. You know how many casual MAU blizzard has been getting since not respecting casuals time? The proof is in the pudding, it’s dropping, and has been for a decade.

And you’re now saying blizzard is using tokens to keep the game alive… listen to yourself. Is that a GOOD thing? Do you think that’s GOOD? I’m arguing that blizzard should be more casual friendly and have the game be more enjoyable for casuals so the game can thrive. More casuals, more people, more people look at tokens.

But you’re sitting here actively arguing that it’s okay if no one plays the game anymore as long as the people willing to pay for fake currency are still there then it’s ok.

That argument seems very weak to me.

And what was even your question?

[MoanaLisa]

The game has 4 difficulties. 1 for everyone 1 for pugs to clear 1 for decently organized guilds and 1 for those that like a challenge.

The problem that opens up with that, and it's everywhere to see at this point, is a community attitude that can be stated as "You are a shit player unless you've cleared Mythic." That brings on all sorts of problems, from people quitting a game and community that tells them they are terrible to boosting. It would be interesting to see mythic raiding reconfigured as a cosmetic-only affair. I doubt that many would bother with it which tells you something about the viability of the "we want a challenge, we're doing this for bragging rights" claims.

I'm not saying they should do it but it would certainly be interesting. As a beneficial side effect it would lower the power curve somewhat. Developers have made many statements about the power curve needing to be how it is to provide a meaningful upgrade. This is probably the best example of Skinner Boxing in the game. "Gotta run the maze 117 times at extravagant expense to get that treat at the end".

It's a valid and well-tested design philosophy but it's about as anti-fun as grinding out in the world can be and not really that different.

[Azharok]

A couple hours a week is anything but vague. That’s narrows down time played pretty well.

Also destiny 2 isn’t buy once play forever it’s a buy a full game price every year.

And you aren’t wrong blizz needs MAU. You know how many casual MAU blizzard has been getting since not respecting casuals time? The proof is in the pudding, it’s dropping, and has been for a decade.

And you’re now saying blizzard is using tokens to keep the game alive… listen to yourself. Is that a GOOD thing? Do you think that’s GOOD? I’m arguing that blizzard should be more casual friendly and have the game be more enjoyable for casuals so the game can thrive. More casuals, more people, more people look at tokens.

But you’re sitting here actively arguing that it’s okay if no one plays the game anymore as long as the people willing to pay for fake currency are still there then it’s ok.

That argument seems very weak to me.

And what was even your question?

I was comparing D2 and Wow without expansions, because lets face it you buy expansions for WoW too, the base economic model however is B2P/F2P for D2 and B2P/P2P for WoW. You could still play D2 forever after buying the first box, content would be quite limited though i'll give you that.


All I'm saying regarding subs and tokens is that however many MAUs they lost, it's probably not in the danger zone otherwise they'd shift the game more than what they are doing. We could make the case that that's what DF is trying to become : a more casual friendly WoW. But I'd argue that however casual friendly the game becomes it still wont be enough for the "casual crowds that plays a couple of undefined hours".

You wouldn't get anywhere fast playing 2 hours a week on any MMO. Regardless of how casual friendly/unfriendly it is.

https://webtribunal.net/blog/wow-player-count/#gref

This might interest you.

According to this article :

- The average wow players clocks in 22 something hours a week. So you're not even the target demographic you claim to be if you play 2 hours a week.

- There are on average 6 millions players in WoW on a monthly basis. Which is 50% of what they had in LK/Cata, but again the game is 17-18 years old now, so I'm not surprised.

So again, I'm sure Blizz are aware of the bleeding player count, and I don't think it is a problem for them given that they have other incomes streams (namely tokens and vanity cashshop items).

[dewd]

i think op is right. 0,01% are actually looking forward to flying around with a dragon and that being the big expansion selling feature

[Kyriani]

Take the return of the Mage Tower. How many folks actually have the Spelltome mount? That's a lot of work to get (7 scenarios) and it can be fairly difficult content. The end reward is cosmetic and doesn't offer any player power. According to DataforAzeroth only 0.9479% of all wow players have gotten this mount.

I can only tell you why I don't have the spelltome mount... it's because it's too hard to get for me. Even if the mage tower offered player power, I still wouldn't be able to complete it. It's not that the rewards are lacking, it's that I can't even manage to beat one of the challenges nevermind all of them.

So... is the reason so few have the spelltome mount because the reward isn't compelling enough? Or is it because the content is just too difficult for most people to get it? I personally find the transmog and mount rewards incredibly compelling. And I did try. I got the consumables, got the gear with gem slots, read the strats, watched the vids, but it's still beyond my ability to succeed at it. I just don't have the same mental and physical reflexes I had 20 years ago. I'm slower and less coordinated than I once was. There's nothing I can do about that, and my capabilities will only decline as time continues to march on.

If I'll never be able to out-level it, and I'll never be able to out-gear it, then I will never be able to complete it and thus never be able to get the rewards. That being the case, that content and those rewards may as well not exist as far as I'm concerned, and I have better things to do with my time than beat my head against a wall that I will never be able to break through. If Blizz ever nerfs the mage tower I will try again, otherwise... it's not on my radar.

[Celement]

The problem that opens up with that, and it's everywhere to see at this point, is a community attitude that can be stated as "You are a shit player unless you've cleared Mythic." That brings on all sorts of problems, from people quitting a game and community that tells them they are terrible to boosting. It would be interesting to see mythic raiding reconfigured as a cosmetic-only affair. I doubt that many would bother with it which tells you something about the viability of the "we want a challenge, we're doing this for bragging rights" claims.

I'm not saying they should do it but it would certainly be interesting. As a beneficial side effect it would lower the power curve somewhat. Developers have made many statements about the power curve needing to be how it is to provide a meaningful upgrade. This is probably the best example of Skinner Boxing in the game. "Gotta run the maze 117 times at extravagant expense to get that treat at the end".

It's a valid and well-tested design philosophy but it's about as anti-fun as grinding out in the world can be and not really that different.

I would actually be open to seeing this happen. I don't think you will find many people defending the 4 different anymore it has really broken down from a combination of factors.

I think mythic would survive but guilds would become a more communal affair. What I mean by that is you would likely have multiple raid groups all doing more pick up and go groups over a standard rooster.

It would kill off mythic on any realm that isn't the big six though.

[Royru]

I was comparing D2 and Wow without expansions, because lets face it you buy expansions for WoW too, the base economic model however is B2P/F2P for D2 and B2P/P2P for WoW. You could still play D2 forever after buying the first box, content would be quite limited though i'll give you that.

And wow is technically free to play as well with very limited content unless you pay. But I'm really not sure why any of this is relevant at all. You bring this up without making a connection as to why this is relevant.

All I'm saying regarding subs and tokens is that however many MAUs they lost, it's probably not in the danger zone otherwise they'd shift the game more than what they are doing. We could make the case that that's what DF is trying to become : a more casual friendly WoW. But I'd argue that however casual friendly the game becomes it still wont be enough for the "casual crowds that plays a couple of undefined hours".

And I'm saying the game can possibly thrive if it did cater to casuals. How does the game "technically surviving off of wow tokens" disprove any of my points? I'm suggesting the game can be better.

You wouldn't get anywhere fast playing 2 hours a week on any MMO. Regardless of how casual friendly/unfriendly it is.

That's pretty funny because I am doing just that in Destiny 2 right now. I'm doing the hardest content the game has to offer that only less than 5% of the playerbase is doing right now. There are a ton of games that allow for this and they aren't just surviving they are thriving.

https://webtribunal.net/blog/wow-player-count/#gref

This might interest you.

Before I go too deep into this...did you even read this article? I would suggest you remove this part of your comment because this article doesn't hold your position in the light you want it to..

I'll give you just a hint of something else in this article for reference.

In Q2 2017, World of Warcraft reached 46 million monthly active users thanks to the Legion expansion.

Whoever wrote this has absolutely no idea what they are talking about and every single one of their points is objectively incorrect. I would delete that if I were you.

This person did 0 research and it seems to be written by a teenager.

[Echo of Soul]

The problem that opens up with that, and it's everywhere to see at this point, is a community attitude that can be stated as "You are a shit player unless you've cleared Mythic." That brings on all sorts of problems, from people quitting a game and community that tells them they are terrible to boosting. It would be interesting to see mythic raiding reconfigured as a cosmetic-only affair. I doubt that many would bother with it which tells you something about the viability of the "we want a challenge, we're doing this for bragging rights" claims.

I'm not saying they should do it but it would certainly be interesting. As a beneficial side effect it would lower the power curve somewhat. Developers have made many statements about the power curve needing to be how it is to provide a meaningful upgrade. This is probably the best example of Skinner Boxing in the game. "Gotta run the maze 117 times at extravagant expense to get that treat at the end".

It's a valid and well-tested design philosophy but it's about as anti-fun as grinding out in the world can be and not really that different.

If you remove gear from mythic the game is essentially dead. Nobody would do it and every single raider would quit the game which is at least a major chunk of the playerbase if not the majority.

[MoanaLisa]

I would actually be open to seeing this happen. I don't think you will find many people defending the 4 different anymore it has really broken down from a combination of factors.

I think mythic would survive but guilds would become a more communal affair. What I mean by that is you would likely have multiple raid groups all doing more pick up and go groups over a standard rooster.

It would kill off mythic on any realm that isn't the big six though.

For YEARS I've been writing at Blizzard about cross-realm guilds.

- - - Updated - - -

If you remove gear from mythic the game is essentially dead. Nobody would do it and every single raider would quit the game which is at least a major chunk of the playerbase if not the majority.

No, mythic raiding is nowhere near the majority and that's a ridiculous claim to make. Let's all act as if mythic raiding has always existed. It hasn't of course and raiding was, if anything, healthier in the days when it didn't exist.

[Royru]

For YEARS I've been writing at Blizzard about cross-realm guilds.

- - - Updated - - -



No, mythic raiding is nowhere near the majority and that's a ridiculous claim to make. Let's all act as if mythic raiding has always existed. It hasn't of course and raiding was, if anything, healthier in the days when it didn't exist.

Yeah in the first 3 weeks the final boss of heroic sep, there was only 359 kills INCLUDING guilds who cleared multiple weeks.

Or maybe a better thing to look at is the first boss in mythic for the first month. It had 1,404 kills. Yeah I would sure hope that’s not a major chunk of players if I’m blizzard

If this is the “major chunk” of wows percentage then wow is doing a whole lot worse than what people think.

[Azharok]

And wow is technically free to play as well with very limited content unless you pay. But I'm really not sure why any of this is relevant at all. You bring this up without making a connection as to why this is relevant.

Because they have different business models, the point I was making is that Bungie doesn't care if people play or not since they already have your money once you've purchased the game. They have to keep releasing expansions to cover operating costs. Wow could hypothetically remain the same, as long as people stay subbed to the game Blizz is making money. Obviously people would start to get bored so they release new content to keep people interested same as every other game.

And I'm saying the game can possibly thrive if it did cater to casuals. How does the game "technically surviving off of wow tokens" disprove any of my points? I'm suggesting the game can be better.

Wow is closing on it's 18th Birthday iirc, Blizz knows that they can't keep the steam going and the playercount getting smaller is expected at some point in the life cycle of a product. However many "new ideas" they introduce into WoW will probably NEVER bring them back to Wotlk numbers. Games peak and taper off.

That's pretty funny because I am doing just that in Destiny 2 right now. I'm doing the hardest content the game has to offer that only less than 5% of the playerbase is doing right now. There are a ton of games that allow for this and they aren't just surviving they are thriving.

I didn't realise that 6 players in a party was "MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER", Wow raids have up to 30 players, that's 5 times more. I'm currently in the 3% of top M+ players and I wouldn't say I play all that much (just checked I've played on avg 1 hour a day since Shadowlands came out). What's your point ? that it proves that Wow isn't casual friendly and D2 is ? How long would you say it would take you in D2 from start to where you are now ? in /played.

Before I go too deep into this...did you even read this article? I would suggest you remove this part of your comment because this article doesn't hold your position in the light you want it to..

I did read it, I'm fully aware of what it says. I don't see how it disproves anything I've said.

Whoever wrote this has absolutely no idea what they are talking about and every single one of their points is objectively incorrect. I would delete that if I were you.

This person did 0 research and it seems to be written by a teenager.

Saying "na ah" isn't an argument.

[Richardbro]

Normal and Heroic need to become piss easy. WotLK was the most popular expansion for these reasons. A group filled with friends and drunkees should be able to go into normal Sepulcher day on and clear 90% of the raid with minimal difficulty. Getting gear is fun, and progressing is fun.

Heroic should also be pretty easy and doable in a pug with higher ilevel players or full normal gear.

Mythic can remain as is, for the hardcore and difficult (Not as difficult as it is now though).

Basically, LFR should be tourist mode, no DPS or HPS matters.
Normal should be as easy as current lfr.
Heroic should be as easy as current normal.
And mythic should be between heroic and mythic now.

Many players are being driven to PVP and mythic plus instead because raids are too hard, long, and not worth it.

[Azharok]

Normal and Heroic need to become piss easy. WotLK was the most popular expansion for these reasons. A group filled with friends and drunkees should be able to go into normal Sepulcher day on and clear 90% of the raid with minimal difficulty. Getting gear is fun, and progressing is fun.

Heroic should also be pretty easy and doable in a pug with higher ilevel players or full normal gear.

Mythic can remain as is, for the hardcore and difficult (Not as difficult as it is now though).

Basically, LFR should be tourist mode, no DPS or HPS matters.
Normal should be as easy as current lfr.
Heroic should be as easy as current normal.
And mythic should be between heroic and mythic now.

Many players are being driven to PVP and mythic plus instead because raids are too hard, long, and not worth it.

Hardly anyone PVPs anymore.

[ohwell]

For YEARS I've been writing at Blizzard about cross-realm guilds.

- - - Updated - - -



No, mythic raiding is nowhere near the majority and that's a ridiculous claim to make. Let's all act as if mythic raiding has always existed. It hasn't of course and raiding was, if anything, healthier in the days when it didn't exist.

It's a ridiculous claim to suggest that the top end of the game isn't supporting the majority of the game at this point. In a streaming world the paradigm has shifted. Look at the streaming contracts that Blizzard has made with YouTube/Twitch/etc and try to tell me that the other players are bringing in that sort of money. Between the pvp and m+ and whatever else they stream it's basically the .01% and they're bringing in millions. Much less those people typically have 3+ accounts and are whales(purchasing shop items). We're not a world where Joe Casual and his 500,000 casual friends are the money makers of the game. The game wouldn't die in the suggested way of players online, but they sure as hell would be in the negative when in comes to profit if the top end quit.

But I mean it's funny you suggest that poster was ridiculous for suggesting that the top end are carrying the game and you refer to olden days when those days are long gone.

[VMSmith]

No, mythic raiding is nowhere near the majority and that's a ridiculous claim to make. Let's all act as if mythic raiding has always existed. It hasn't of course and raiding was, if anything, healthier in the days when it didn't exist.

The fact that everyone is responding to Echo as if they weren't being absolutely satirical is proof that posters on MMOC only care about winning an argument and don't actually pay attention or give any thought to what anyone else has to say other than how they can "counter" it

I did read it, I'm fully aware of what it says. I don't see how it disproves anything I've said.

Warcraft has never had 46 million users/subscribers. Blizzard may have, but not Warcraft, which is what your link claimed. It also claims 4.8 million subscribers, which is something no one knows at all and would be highly disputed by all actually available data.

I mean, that article is terrible and should never be referenced as evidence.

[Richardbro]

Raiding is definitely too hard at the moment. My friends returned in 9.0 and joined a casual guild who struggled and only got 3 bosses in Normal CN the first 3 weeks and they said fuck this and quit. Normal mode should be faceroll and heroic should be slightly difficult. Mythic can stay difficult but not as much it is now.

[Azharok]

Warcraft has never had 46 million users/subscribers. Blizzard may have, but not Warcraft, which is what your link claimed. It also claims 4.8 million subscribers, which is something no one knows at all and would be highly disputed by all actually available data.

I mean, that article is terrible and should never be referenced as evidence.

Yeah I'll concede that point, so are we gonna throw the whole tub out because of one misquoted claim ?

[arkanon]

https://webtribunal.net/blog/wow-player-count/#gref

I want everyone to click on this link before reading anything else this poster has to say. Among MANY other completely false, entirely fabricated "facts" is this gem:

In Q2 2017, World of Warcraft reached 46 million monthly active users thanks to the Legion expansion.

Now this was listed under the FACTS section, along with the FACT that it has 4.6m subscribers. The author also has NO understanding of the difference between Blizzard, and Acti-Blizz, and constantly attributes Acti-Blizz products to Blizzard. I know NOTHING about horse racing - this article reads the same as if i wrote an article on horse racing, with just 1 days warning, slow internet, and only allowed to read the summary from google - not allowed to actually click the links.

Dont listen to anything in an article that is entirely bullshit, and dont listen to anyone who presents it to support their argument.

[Azharok]

I want everyone to click on this link before reading anything else this poster has to say. Among MANY other completely false, entirely fabricated "facts" is this gem:

In Q2 2017, World of Warcraft reached 46 million monthly active users thanks to the Legion expansion.

Now this was listed under the FACTS section, along with the FACT that it has 4.6m subscribers. The author also has NO understanding of the difference between Blizzard, and Acti-Blizz, and constantly attributes Acti-Blizz products to Blizzard. I know NOTHING about horse racing - this article reads the same as if i wrote an article on horse racing, with just 1 days warning, slow internet, and only allowed to read the summary from google - not allowed to actually click the links.

Dont listen to anything in an article that is entirely bullshit, and dont listen to anyone who presents it to support their argument.

I'll go back to it and see if I can substantiate those claims. I'm happy to retract if I don't. I'll leave my post unedited though. Don't care if it makes me look like a fool.

[arkanon]

I'll go back to it and see if I can substantiate those claims. I'm happy to retract if I don't. I'll leave my post unedited though. Don't care if it makes me look like a fool.

You, single-handedly, are going to go and substantiate wows subscriber count?