Is the sub-based monthly model outdated?

[Relapses]

Well, people who are good paying the sub fee would have an extra $160 per year to spend on cosmetics if that were the case. Seems like a better deal since they'd be able to actually pick and choose what they want to spend their money on instead of needing to pay the sub and then still seeing cosmetics being put in the store. Meanwhile people who aren't willing to pay the sub might still spend $10 here and there if they can play the game for free.

You are grossly underestimating how predatory the transactions for a F2P version of WoW would like be. Did you see what they did with OW2? If people think boosting is an epidemic now... holy moly.

[Lordofbelbol]

That's unfortunately part of the problem, Blizzard can perform live beta tests on paying subscribers and add systems that incentivize a substantial portion of their player base that just way to play the content they like to purchase WoW tokens in order to stay relevant. Every system added that requires some measure of gold/time to reward exchange needs to be viewed through the lense of Blizzard's profits. Gold boosting as an example.

An example being the legendary system in SL which virtually required players to spend X amount per patch on crafted items. No doubt Blizzard knew that this would incentivize tons of their now adult and busy player base to just buy WoW tokens so they can play the end game content they want to play without having to farm gold. Dragonflight has plenty of gold based systems, to include crafted gear and raid BoEs with exclusive bonuses that will end up BiS for many specs.

I have noticed that my buddies were buying more tokens in SL than bfa

[Nokami]

Also, why is the movie theater example the ONLY one that people ever bring up? Are most WoW players only aware of video games and movies as avenues of entertainment? There are plenty of cheaper hobbies than WoW out there if you branch out beyond this super narrow scope.

Hell yeah, I pay more than double the 2k per year for Golf, Tennis, and Football. So let us begin to stop with the "super narrow" scope with real other hobbies. My shoes to play football cost 300$ which then get used for a year and need replacement. My ticket to enjoy my favorite sport team costs ~450$ yearly (drinks and food not included). I won't even talk about golf costs if you actually want good equipment, which tops the entire sum easily. My Tennis equipment costs about 500$ and I usually use that for a year. So he is absolutely correct in saying that it's an insanely cheap hobby, because it is. And I don't even count the costs to actually use my equipment, like the use of golf or tennis courts. I can play wow whenever I want and how much I want for the 13$ which are quite literally pennies.

Good equipment costs money. Using that equipment usually costs money. A lot if not most real-life hobbies cost much more than any video game currently. And comparing video games to other entertainment formats like Netflix Subscriptions, Cinema, etc, you will also have a much better deal by playing WoW for example.

It's always funny that people come up with the "oh it's again just the cinema" argument, when in reality a lot of things are just costly if you want to do them right. A lot of my friends care about their cars and boy... I don't want to know how much they spend on these stupid things which are only there to get you from point A to B. Hobbies ain't cheap, especially not in the first world.

Edit: I generally think that this argument comes from people that really have no hobbies.

[crusadernero]

Hell no. People underestimate how bad it would be if wow went F2P. What we have now would be nothing. F2P could mean classes, specs, mounts(Much more than now), gear, xp boosts(more than now)++++ potentially be behind a paywall.

The sub cost is worth it. No one forces you to sub for more than one month at a time. For most players, a 1 month sub can potentially mean alot of cheap gaming. Remember, this is not a game you "finish" like a solo story game. Its infinite content for MMORPG players.

Besides, if you down the road gets sick of it, just unsub.

Looking at other hobbies, playing wow a couple of nights a week for 15 bucks aint bad.

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Hell yeah, I pay more than double the 2k per year for Golf, Tennis, and Football. So let us begin to stop with the "super narrow" scope with real other hobbies. My shoes to play football cost 300$ which then get used for a year and need replacement. My ticket to enjoy my favorite sport team costs ~450$ yearly. I won't even talk about golf costs if you actually want good equipment, which tops the entire sum easily. My Tennis equipment costs about 500$ and I usually use that for a year. So he is absolutely correct in saying that it's an insanely cheap hobby, because it is. And I don't even count the costs to actually use my equipment, like the use of golf or tennis courts. I can play wow whenever I want and how much I want for the 13$ which are quite literally pennies.

Good equipment costs money. Using that equipment usually costs money. A lot if not most real-life hobbies cost much more than any video game currently. And comparing video games to other entertainment formats like Netflix Subscriptions, Cinema, etc, you will also have a much better deal by playing WoW for example.

It's always funny that people come up with "oh its again just the cinema" argument, when in reality a lot of things are just costly.

Yeah 100%. I mean, going to the cinema once or twice in my country will already go beyond the 1 month sub cost.

[Kokolums]

$15 is super cheap. That's not a barrier to entry at all. What IS a barrier to entry is that you need a gaming rig that costs $800+ to play it. As I've said before, minecraft can run on basic laptops. If Blizz just released a low graphics version of wow that can run on some $300 laptop and run WELL for raiding etc., the sub base would probably go past 11 million from that alone.

[Adamas102]

You are grossly underestimating how predatory the transactions for a F2P version of WoW would like be. Did you see what they did with OW2? If people think boosting is an epidemic now... holy moly.

Perhaps. No, I don't know what they did with OW2. OW was one of their few games that I never got into. I've certainly quit a couple of F2P games that delved too deep into what felt like predatory tactics, while still comfortably playing other F2P games with no issues. WoW's pricing scheme already feel predatory anyway with their triple dipping between sub, box, and cosmetic costs. None of us know exactly what a F2P WoW would look like, but what you're saying is that you're 100% sure that it would be more costly than $160 per year for the average player?

[Relapses]

Perhaps. No, I don't know what they did with OW2. OW was one of their few games that I never got into. I've certainly quit a couple of F2P games that delved too deep into what felt like predatory tactics, while still comfortably playing other F2P games with no issues. WoW's pricing scheme already feel predatory anyway with their triple dipping between sub, box, and cosmetic costs. None of us know exactly what a F2P WoW would look like, but what you're saying is that you're 100% sure that it would be more costly than $160 per year for the average player?

Time is money.

This is obviously a hypothetical. WoW goes F2P but now you need to grind some currency to unlock 5-man dungeons and raids. This grind takes hundreds of hours of boring, menial, non-interactive gameplay. Like repeating the same 25 WQs ad infintum or grinding some introductory "F2P" dungeon over and over again. Of course, you could just pay $60 and get them unlocked instantly with a Battle Pass. The problem with a F2P model is that it will inevitably put F2P players in an arms race against the P2P players, inexorably leading to claims that Blizzard "clearly" favors one to the other. Ultimately nobody will win and even though WoW might be F2P it... probably isn't much better for it. I agree that if it were just the cosmetic stuff that it'd totally be worth but I don't see a world where Blizzard is that generous.

[Adamas102]

Hell yeah, I pay more than double the 2k per year for Golf, Tennis, and Football. So let us begin to stop with the "super narrow" scope with real other hobbies.

Over all the years that these sub fee threads have popped up the "but it's cheaper than a movie!" excuse comes up CONSTANTLY! Hell, I didn't even need to go 10 posts into this thread to see it pop up. It's laughable how ubiquitous it has become.

So he is absolutely correct in saying that it's an insanely cheap hobby, because it is. And I don't even count the costs to actually use my equipment, like the use of golf or tennis courts. I can play wow whenever I want and how much I want for the 13$ which are quite literally pennies.

No, he's not correct just because you throw out a handful of expensive sporting hobbies (seriously, golf? yeah, I ski as well but I'm not going to make a comparison to a sport that is predominately geared to rich folks when there are plenty of other options).

And no, I can't play WoW "whenever I want and how much I want" for $13. You get ONE month for $13. Then you pay again for anther month, and so on ad infinitum. So 99% of the games I've bought over the course of my life (ie. most games) you MIGHT pay a little more than $13 up front BUT you can indeed play them whenever you want for as long as you want because they're not tied to subscription fees. I see right now that Darkest Dungeon (my 3rd highest play time on Steam) is on sale for a whopping $3.75. Even at its full $25 price tag I've certainly gotten more than 2 months worth of playtime out of it. I've definitely gotten more than 3 months worth of play time out of Skyrim. D3 has earned back its price tag a hundred fold at this point if your benchmark is "$13 for one month = cheap". And of course there are F2P games. Hell, I've been playing LoL on and off for almost 10 years now and never had to put a penny into it.

Edit: I generally think that this argument comes from people that really have no hobbies.

Ha! That's rich... Well, other than video games and skiing (obviously more of a seasonal hobby) I've been playing/collecting MTG for over 25 years now. I spend at least $1,000 per year on that one, but I have friends who are perfectly content playing with just the 1-2 $50 premade decks they've bought over the years. Getting into D&D about 6 years ago also brought with it a crippling addiction to buying/collecting/painting minis (that's a personal hobby that I've spent $1,000s on but the D&D we still play regularly at no cost beyond the basic book set we bought 6 years ago). I still have and play the same $100 guitar I got more than 20 years ago (strings only cost about $10 and I don't replace them all that often). Most of the high end backpacking gear I bought a decade ago will still last me AT LEAST another couple of decades if taken care of. Two of my wife's favorite hobbies are drawing and writing which require only pencil and paper. Then there's the countless hours of entertainment my friends and I have gotten over the years from probably less than $400 worth of board games (even better bang for your buck when you're splitting that entertainment time between 4-8 people). You named two sports that do require a good amount of gear (one of my friends has hockey which is also up there), but casual soccer or basketball games require just one $40 ball for a whole group.

If I had no friends, only $200 per year to spend on entertainment (not including the $1,000+ gaming computer that everyone ignores when making this argument), and none of the stuff I currently own, I'd still rather spend $120 on my top 5 most played Steam games, $30 on the D3 Collection, install my F2P games, get a library card for free, and a couple of sketch books, all of which would entertain me fully for more than a year. So yeah, spending $15 per month, every month for ONE video game (even IF I had to maximize my money:entertainment ratio) doesn't sound like a good deal to me.

[VMSmith]

spending $15 per month, every month for ONE video game (even IF I had to maximize my money:entertainment ratio) doesn't sound like a good deal to me.

There are plenty of "game pass" sort of deals out there, as well, that lump many multiples of games into a subscription. Oftentimes even cheaper than $15/month. Why spend $15 on just one game when you can play a wide variety of things.

An MMO subscription is just poor value for what you get. And what you get is the opportunity to spend all your time on that one game so you don't feel like your money is going to "waste".

[Adamas102]

Time is money.

This is obviously a hypothetical. WoW goes F2P but now you need to grind some currency to unlock 5-man dungeons and raids. This grind takes hundreds of hours of boring, menial, non-interactive gameplay. Like repeating the same 25 WQs ad infintum or grinding some introductory "F2P" dungeon over and over again. Of course, you could just pay $60 and get them unlocked instantly with a Battle Pass. The problem with a F2P model is that it will inevitably put F2P players in an arms race against the P2P players, inexorably leading to claims that Blizzard "clearly" favors one to the other. Ultimately nobody will win and even though WoW might be F2P it... probably isn't much better for it. I agree that if it were just the cosmetic stuff that it'd totally be worth but I don't see a world where Blizzard is that generous.

Sure, you can certainly come up with a hundred scenarios where a F2P model is absolutely horrible, but if the aim is to actually invite players who aren't willing to pay a sub fee then hiding large portions of the game behind fees seems like a completely antithetical model. Even in your example though, a $60 Battle Pass to unlock that stuff would be about 1/3rd of what people are currently paying per year for the sub so that sounds like an improvement right there.

The ONLY problem I think is possibly (not necessarily likely, but certainly possible) is what you mention in terms of an arms race, BUT I think that would only affect a relatively small group of players. Most people don't play this game (or any game for that matter) competitively so if things like the best gems or enchantments are locked behind a paywall (which again needs to be in excess of $180 per year to make it more than the current sub system) I would expect the vast majority of players to be unbothered.

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There are plenty of "game pass" sort of deals out there, as well, that lump many multiples of games into a subscription. Oftentimes even cheaper than $15/month. Why spend $15 on just one game when you can play a wide variety of things.

An MMO subscription is just poor value for what you get. And what you get is the opportunity to spend all your time on that one game so you don't feel like your money is going to "waste".

For sure. I don't have one so I'm not super familiar with them, but definitely another better "bang for your buck" option compared to this.

[T-34]

If you don't like Blizzard's business model then go spend your money somewhere else.
Let the market decide whether Blizzard's "business model is outdated".

I would suggest that psychology and economics should become mandatory subjects in schools all over the world, that might in the future save us from idiotic questions like this one.

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Right here you show that you have no concept of what it's like living on a minimum-wage job.

Sure, two and a half hours is enough to cover a WoW sub for someone in such a job. But you know what else that two and a half hours covers ...? One 60th of their rent, which is a damn sight more important than a WoW sub.

It's even worse for many people in a lot of European countries.

And a Ferrari can cost more than 20 years of rent. So what?

[crusadernero]

Plenty of content in WoW isn't fun, not just subjectively, and a pre-requisite to the content you actually want to play. Inflating the amount of 'content' in a game to increase active player counts feels like what Blizzard does now. For those of us who've spent +decade playing, there's a dwindling amount of content available, and that value proposition goes way down once you've caught up.

End game is far more expensive than just the normal leveling/casual content, that includes the time spent to keep up with gearing and such. That time can generally be spent with money because of the WoW Token, so Blizzard is incentivized financially to create systems that capitalize on that.

Sure, fair point.

But then again - im someone whos played on/off since vanilla. Back in the day I would stay subbed all the time. At periods i've probably been subbed for years without stop. But, as time has moved on I also play the game less. These days I sub on a monthly basis and my "trick" is that when i've subbed, I quickly also unsub. So I dont forget to unsub before another month is withdrawn. That way I get what I pay for.

Sub cost is only annoying when you dont spend time playing the game. I bet ALOT of money Blizzard has made fromt his game has been from players that pay the sub but dont really play. Just like Netflix & HBO streaming services.

With DF im buying the game(the cheapest one) and have a 1 month sub. I will for sure get my moneys worth from that. After the first month, i'll decide if its worth another month. And so on.

It is super cheap overall. Buying a new AAA game today is costly and you might even end up not liking it and/or completing the game. With wow we know what we get, we can jump in/out at any given time.

How end game is treated depends on the xpac. Certain xpacs has been a hellhole, others not that bad. So with DF we just gotta wait and see.

[Lolites]

Also, why is the movie theater example the ONLY one that people ever bring up?

there was at least half a dozen examples in THIS THREAD ALONE, maybe start actualy reading what other people posted...

[potis]

Edit: I generally think that this argument comes from people that really have no hobbies.

The argument comes from the Balkans, or the African, or the South American that 15$ is a lot, which is for them.

Just because some special snowflake from a privileged country uses it as an argument to promote his WoW hate, or because he has no sellf-respect and he cant keep himself out of the game, he wants the excuse "Well its free!" to play it, because someone from his circe mocked him for paying to play , doesnt mean 15$ is not problematic for many.

Everyone always blows things out of proportions and tries to discuss them, when the reality of the situation is "Just shut the fuck up dude, play the game or dont play, no one cares about you", would shut up most of these weirdos.

[Lolites]

It's even worse for many people in a lot of European countries.

i live in eastern europe, monthly wow sub is minimum wage for 4h here, which is still cheap as fuck compared to ANY other hobby...
and if you cant afford to spare that little, you should really focus on other things than videogames...

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The argument comes from the Balkans, or the African, or the South American that 15$ is a lot, which is for them.

Just because some special snowflake from a privileged country

im from eastern europe, wow sub is still cheap as hell...
maybe instead of complaining how this game, which si still one of cheapest hobbies, is too pricy, try doing something with your life... bcs if spending 15$ a month is too much of expense to you you have MUCH bigger issues than videogames...

not to mention if you know what the hell you are doing you can play wow without spending a dime...

but im curious, what hobbies you have, that are cheaper than wow?

[Lochton]

It's even worse for many people in a lot of European countries.

What do you mean by that? In my country, the subscription is about 1 hour of minimum wage if you are on the lowest, even a McDonald's employee can earn more an hour than the subscription. Of course, my country isn't the whole of the EU but yeah, it isn't in the gutter or high-value currency either.

[Adamas102]

there was at least half a dozen examples in THIS THREAD ALONE, maybe start actualy reading what other people posted...

It was partially a joke because of how common that particular comparison is in threads like this (in this case appearing within the first 7 replies), but the fact remains that it's a silly comparison because among video games WoW is one of the most expensive and beyond video games there are plenty of cheaper hobbies.

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i live in eastern europe, monthly wow sub is minimum wage for 4h here, which is still cheap as fuck compared to ANY other hobby...

Seriously? You're going to give me shit for a bit of hyperbole and then throw THIS one out there? Come on...

[potis]

im from eastern europe, wow sub is still cheap as hell...
maybe instead of complaining how this game, which si still one of cheapest hobbies, is too pricy, try doing something with your life... bcs if spending 15$ a month is too much of expense to you you have MUCH bigger issues than videogames...

not to mention if you know what the hell you are doing you can play wow without spending a dime...

but im curious, what hobbies you have, that are cheaper than wow?

Somehow assuming i am in that category is adorable.

Not all eastern european countries are the same, the average balkan pleb doesnt play WoW, but those that do as they grow older have less of a reason to spend 15$ because in reality they are poor.

You are probably young, WoW is your priority mentally still therefor you care about it, at the same time you mentioned "Spending a dime" which means token, which means tons of free time.

That aint how it works and you are gonna get your balkan ass handed to you when life hits you.

And Balkans are still okay because we are in Europe,, wait till a South American tells you 15$ is food for a week.

[mbit2]

"Blizz model is outdated" is an entire different topic to whether they should change it.
f2p is factually the current meta but blizz cant attract enough new users going f2p to justify the sub money loss and that's the sole reason they wont do it.

[Thundering]

i think sub is better problem is just companies need to use it to develop the game.