Darnassus is gone and it still has no "replacement"

[vian]

Didn't think anyone cared about that tree, as it's been abandoned by everyone but newbies and RPers forever.

[Xilurm]

What do you mean?

That they just keep taking and taking away from the Alliance. The Horde keeps gaining while the Alliance loses. One little sidequest and Undercity is already ready to open and be a capital city again. Can't do that with Theramore and Teldrassil. And yeah I know that the Alliance got Stormgarde back, but that isn't even a proper city. And eventually, at some point we're going to get Gilneas back... eventually.

Kalimdor as it stands seems pretty lost though.

Also, the way the Alliance lost those places as well. All of them pretty brutal. Wasn't just losing a city, the land itself keeps getting destroyed every time the Alliance loses something, making it much harder to regain.

[Army Dreamer]

Darnassus is gone and the Alliance is down to 3 cities while horde still got under city?

Theramore is never fixed.

Not even Gilneas is back ingame for the Alliance even if it did happen lorevise years ago?

Will Alliance ever get something?

The war i over. So probably alliance could start rebuilding their cities? Night elves especially.

[Le Conceptuel]

Same with Mag'hars. Spacegoats attack them, not overwise. Killed, genosided, enslaved and turned into light-zombies.

To be fair, Gey'arah is a highly unreliable narrator. She's a very good character by the standards that Blizzard's put out thus far, but I also don't exactly trust her judgement given that she leads a direct continuation of a slavedriving imperialist power with a preexisting grudge against the Draenei. I have a feeling that the situation will be revealed to be more complicated than the fanatical Lightbound popping up out of nowhere, brainwashing people, and annihilating Orcish culture.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You can just SAY "we didn't want to take chances, so we went with an easy solution" instead of trying to somehow pretend it was the ONLY solution.

Makes it all seem at least slightly less hypocritical, you know.

They did take chances, they captured them paid insane amounts to keep them alive and tried to cure them of there Fel addiction.

The easy option was to kill them and the only option other then kill them or house them was to let them wipe out the alliance like they planned to.

[Koollan]

I will say that we're on track to having a world revamp in 11.0. In an interview, it was stated that Blizzard had specific plans for places like Gilneas, Undercity and various other old world locations and that they are not forgotten.

This means that 11.0 is either a world revamp or in DF patch content, we'll be getting city revamps, which would track with the assets that have been uncovered. Stormwind and Orgrimmar are looking to get revamps. The only cities I could see them skipping with new changes are Ironforge and Thunder Bluff. Gilneas will clearly be replacing Darnassus with Gilneas' "world tree" (which is featured in the Emerald Dream) replacing Darnassus' world tree status as a Kaldorei symbol.

Then again, these are good ideas. Dragonflight as a whole looks like it'll do well, but only the next steps on this foundation are what will carry WoW forward. If we don't get a world revamp and general content and lore reorganization in 11.0, then WoW will flounder a bit, I'm afraid. That's why I'm happy that we have those leaked redux assets to corroborate the revamp theory.

[Feanoro]

I have yet to hear the people who sob about the internment camps do so honestly or offer another solution.

The Old Horde was an unstoppable killing machine. Only batshit insane leaders would allow them to go their merry way after defeat. What guarantee do they have the Horde won't lick its wounds and try again? Why would or should they believe anything the Old Horde said?

The camps were established with the Kirin Tor's goal of curing the fel corruption. They were wildly unpopular as they were expensive to the point of nearly bankrupting several kingdoms.

So let's hear the alternatives, people who claim to be morally outraged by the camps. Cannot let the Old Horde go loose as there is no way to ensure they won't attack again. Don't want to execute them, out of mercy in recognizing the fel corruption. What then is the solution? After all, there's supposedly plenty of options, let's hear them.

[Biomega]

the only option other then kill them or house them was to let them wipe out the alliance like they planned to.

That's just plain false.

They could have resettled them somewhere.

They could have integrated them into their society.

They could have only executed their leaders, and let the rest go free.

Etc. etc.

There's a slew of other options, only those options were less convenient. Don't pretend they didn't exist, just because they were more difficult to do.

[Feanoro]

They could have resettled them somewhere.

Where? And how do you ensure they stay there, don't build up their strength, and try again?

They could have integrated them into their society.

"Hi Bob, remember how the orcs slaughtered your family and friends, gave their souls to demons, and burned your village to the ground? That was tough. By the way, meet your new neighbor, Thogdar, we're sure you guys will talk baseball over the backyard fence, share beers, and he won't try to kill you."

They could have only executed their leaders, and let the rest go free.

Accomplishing what? All the Old Horde participated and had the demonic bloodrage. What stops them from rebuilding and trying to resume their slaughter?

There's a slew of other options, only those options were less convenient. Don't pretend they didn't exist, just because they were more difficult to do.

So name them and prove they would work.

@Lorgar Aurelian I continue to be convinced that people who cry about the camps (and the Horde's "grievances" in general) would only be satisfied with "Let the Horde massacre anyone and everyone they want, do what they want, take what they want, because duuuuude, cooool!"

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's just plain false.

They could have resettled them somewhere.

They could have integrated them into their society.

They could have only executed their leaders, and let the rest go free.

Etc. etc.

There's a slew of other options, only those options were less convenient. Don't pretend they didn't exist, just because they were more difficult to do.

resettling some where is just a prison with extra steps, look at australia.

To integrated them into society you need to teach them to speak the same langue the culture of the alliance and cure there Fel addiction, which you have to hold them for a time to do and more importantly they were doing all of those while holding them though Blackmore wasn’t taking it seriously.

And killing there leaders and setting them free means they join Gromosh who the alliance could never catch and was still rampaging across the land.

All of your suggestions fall into house them or let them kill the alliance, so again there aren’t any other option other then the easy one being kill them.

- - - Updated - - -

@Lorgar Aurelian I continue to be convinced that people who cry about the camps (and the Horde's "grievances" in general) would only be satisfied with "Let the Horde massacre anyone and everyone they want, do what they want, take what they want, because duuuuude, cooool!”

there could be something to that but I’d think it’s more so putting real world baggage on interment camps and ignoring the actual situation in wow.

The idea that the orcs worked the same way as humans and could turn them selfs around is a pretty one but it really just has no basis in the actual lore, left to there own devices the orcs would either join up with Grom and keep rampaging or die form there Fel withdrawal, either way the orcs end up dead/dying and there is no “peaceful” solution until about the time thrall is on the scene and they were more or less over there withdrawal and had some
One to less then who didn’t want war.

[Biomega]

Where? And how do you ensure they stay there, don't build up their strength, and try again?

With effort. There are no guarantees here. No one said those were easy options, just that those options EXISTED.

"Hi Bob, remember how the orcs slaughtered your family and friends, gave their souls to demons, and burned your village to the ground? That was tough. By the way, meet your new neighbor, Thogdar, we're sure you guys will talk baseball over the backyard fence, share beers, and he won't try to kill you."

That's how civilization works. You think the Alliance soldiers DIDN'T kill people? You think orc children weren't killed during the war, by the same Alliance soldiers that then go home to Bob and have a beer with their friends?

Of course it's not easy to try and move on from enmity. But if you don't, it never ends. They could have been the better people, and tried to mend the rift - instead they took the easy way out, and now have the gall to claim moral superiority over it.

Accomplishing what? All the Old Horde participated and had the demonic bloodrage. What stops them from rebuilding and trying to resume their slaughter?

Time and effort. You seem to forget that the orcs DID overcome their old ways - and by the way, those ways are not so old at all, and the original orc society was war from mindlessly violent. Sure they're more aggressive than most humans, but it's not like they can't coexist with others. They're doing so right now.

Don't pretend like this could never have been overcome because it LITERALLY WAS. No one is saying that it would have been easy, or that it would have been guaranteed to work - only that it was POSSIBLE, and you can't pretend it wasn't.

resettling some where is just a prison with extra steps, look at australia.

I'm not talking about a penal colony. I'm talking about resettlement. And I'm also not saying it was a particularly good option, only that it WAS an option.

To integrated them into society you need to teach them to speak the same langue the culture of the alliance and cure there Fel addiction, which you have to hold them for a time to do and more importantly they were doing all of those while holding them though Blackmore wasn’t taking it seriously.

And you could have done those things in ways that didn't involve concentration camps, too. You're very quick to take what happened and pretend it was the only way this could have been done.

And killing there leaders and setting them free means they join Gromosh who the alliance could never catch and was still rampaging across the land.

You're pretending that you know how history would have played out. You don't. They could have succeeded in capturing him. They could have negotiated a truce. They could have weakened the survivors to the point where even them joining up with the others would not have let them win, forcing them to come to the table. Again, no one is saying this would have been guaranteed to work, but IT WAS AN OPTION, and you keep pretending it wasn't.

All of your suggestions fall into house them or let them kill the alliance, so again there aren’t any other option other then the easy one being kill them.

You're again creating false dichotomies. None of the options above were guaranteed to lead to them "killing the Alliance". The Alliance had evidently already beaten them, that's why they were able to put them all in camps. Would it have been a risk for the Alliance and possibly lead to future war again at some point? Could very well be. But that doesn't mean it WASN'T an option to do something else, it just means they didn't want to take a risk and took the easy solution - easy for THEM, that is.

So by all means, say "The Alliance chose the easiest option for them", but don't pretend they chose the ONLY option.

[Medievaldragon]

Darnassus is gone and the Alliance is down to 3 cities while horde still got under city?

Theramore is never fixed.

Not even Gilneas is back ingame for the Alliance even if it did happen lorevise years ago?

Will Alliance ever get something?

You missed the Dragonflight Launch Interview memo:

Elizabeth Harper (BlizzardWatch): Considering that the Forsaken got a questline late in Shadowlands to clean up Lordaeron, I'm wondering if there's any chance we'll be seeing something similar for the Night Elves or the Gilneans in the future?

Hamilton: I think there's always hope.


Danuser: Anything we say would be too spoilery. The important thing to remember, the fans and the community, we see your discussions, we see your talking about these things, you care about these races and characters in the world, and we care about them too. For us it's always about trying to find the right place to do some of these things, but as the story unfolds we'd love to revisit some of these things, and that's about all we can say. We definitely have some of those things in mind.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'm not talking about a penal colony. I'm talking about resettlement. And I'm also not saying it was a particularly good option, only that it WAS an option.

any sort of resettlement needs to be seen over rather that to be to make sure they don’t come back or treat them for there withdrawal so they don’t just all die on the shore of the barrens. So again that’s house them kill them or let them kill the alliance by coming back and joining grom.

And you could have done those things in ways that didn't involve concentration camps, too. You're very quick to take what happened and pretend it was the only way this could have been done.

then name some.

How do you teach and cure thousands of orcs who only months before were rampaging through the land killing every thing in sight and while there are other orcs still doing so without imprisoning them? Should you just enroll them in lorderon high and hope they show up for classes?

You're pretending that you know how history would have played out. You don't. They could have succeeded in capturing him. They could have negotiated a truce. They could have weakened the survivors to the point where even them joining up with the others would not have let them win, forcing them to come to the table. Again, no one is saying this would have been guaranteed to work, but IT WAS AN OPTION, and you keep pretending it wasn't.

the only one pretending any thing is you I’m going off the actual lore.

They couldn’t capture Grom they tried and failed for years just like they couldn’t capture thrall when he escaped.

There were no leading orcs interested in a truce every orc leader rather it be black hand junior Grom or doom hammer wanted war (doom hammer wanted to die alone) and a new leader didn’t rise until thrall.

And Grom already abandoned the orcs that couldn’t fight he wouldn’t surrender because they were holding him back he would leave them and keep doing what he was doing just
Like he did when the orcs were originally captured.

You're again creating false dichotomies. None of the options above were guaranteed to lead to them "killing the Alliance". The Alliance had evidently already beaten them, that's why they were able to put them all in camps. Would it have been a risk for the Alliance and possibly lead to future war again at some point? Could very well be. But that doesn't mean it WASN'T an option to do something else, it just means they didn't want to take a risk and took the easy solution - easy for THEM, that is.

it’s not false when you say the alliance can’t kill or capture them that means they just have to take it again and again until the orcs wipe them out.

So by all means, say "The Alliance chose the easiest option for them", but don't pretend they chose the ONLY option.

Repeating that it was the easy solution for the alliance will never make it true, the alliance was literally destroying it self by taking care of the orcs members were leaving and the common folk were feeling the cost of the camp they could have wiped them out like multiple members wanted but instead lorderon put there foot down and made the moral stance of giving the orcs a chance keeping them alive and trying to cure them at there own lost. The only thing they did wrong was trust black more to be in charge.

[Feanoro]

With effort. There are no guarantees here. No one said those were easy options, just that those options EXISTED.

Effort such as? You continue to dodge providing specifics. After the Old Horde's rampage, who in their right mind is going to allow them to try again?

That's how civilization works. You think the Alliance soldiers DIDN'T kill people? You think orc children weren't killed during the war, by the same Alliance soldiers that then go home to Bob and have a beer with their friends?

No, civilization does not work by settling invading armies among their victims immediately after a war ends. No, I don't think orc children were killed, because the Old Horde canonically did not involve children. This wasn't refugees, immigrants, or anything like that. This was a demon fueled army of killing machines.

The rest of your post consists of standard errors.

- You confuse Doyle for Watson. The Alliance leaders do not have the benefit of being omniscient players. They do not KNOW how the fel corruption worked, they do not KNOW the history of the orcs, they only know these invaders damn near slaughtered a whole continent. They have no guarantee it won't happen again, and their duty is to protect their people.

- You employ hindsight, effectively stating the Alliance leaders should have known what we learned in later games.

Really, it comes down to you having no argument. You can repeat "there were other solutions!" until you're blue in the face, but if they do not satisfy the in game conditions, they are not valid.

[VladlTutushkin]

I will say that we're on track to having a world revamp in 11.0. In an interview, it was stated that Blizzard had specific plans for places like Gilneas, Undercity and various other old world locations and that they are not forgotten.

This means that 11.0 is either a world revamp or in DF patch content, we'll be getting city revamps, which would track with the assets that have been uncovered. Stormwind and Orgrimmar are looking to get revamps. The only cities I could see them skipping with new changes are Ironforge and Thunder Bluff. Gilneas will clearly be replacing Darnassus with Gilneas' "world tree" (which is featured in the Emerald Dream) replacing Darnassus' world tree status as a Kaldorei symbol.

Then again, these are good ideas. Dragonflight as a whole looks like it'll do well, but only the next steps on this foundation are what will carry WoW forward. If we don't get a world revamp and general content and lore reorganization in 11.0, then WoW will flounder a bit, I'm afraid. That's why I'm happy that we have those leaked redux assets to corroborate the revamp theory.

Night elf setting their capital anywhere not on Kalimdor is equal to cultural suicide for them. Its like telling blood elves to abandon Silvermoon.

[Koollan]

Night elf setting their capital anywhere not on Kalimdor is equal to cultural suicide for them. Its like telling blood elves to abandon Silvermoon.

I mean, in fairness, the EK was part of Kalimdor for a very very long time. Everywhere in Azeroth was. Besides the Dragon Isles, apparently.

[Biomega]

So again that’s house them kill them

I didn't think you could get more hypocritical, but now we've arrived at concentration camps = "house them". They were not "housed". They were IMPRISONED. They were ABUSED. They were caged animals slowly dying of depression and misery, even in places where they WEREN'T made to fight for sport. And somehow you think that's the same as resettling them somewhere and effectively leaving them be?

How do you teach and cure thousands of orcs who only months before were rampaging through the land killing every thing in sight and while there are other orcs still doing so without imprisoning them?

By actually prioritizing the teaching part instead of the imprisoning part. The concentration camps weren't there for "teaching". They were there for detainment. They were hoping things would just work out somehow, maybe, and if not, then at least they'd just die on their own. THAT was the reality, not "teaching".

You know how you "teach" an enemy that you don't have to be enemies? By DEMONSTRATING to them that you don't have to be, not by locking them up and hoping they'll eventually realize you're such a good guy. By showing them kindness and alternatives to violence, not by isolating them and trying hard not to watch what's going on.

They couldn’t capture Grom they tried and failed for years just like they couldn’t capture thrall when he escaped.

You're making a classic category error. They DIDN'T capture them doesn't mean THEY COULD NEVER HAVE captured them. It didn't happen = it was impossible. You don't know, and can't demonstrate that it would have been impossible - you're simply looking at a specific example in time, seeing it didn't happen, and conclude from that it would never have happened. That's grossly erroneous.

There were no leading orcs interested in a truce every orc leader rather it be black hand junior Grom or doom hammer wanted war (doom hammer wanted to die alone) and a new leader didn’t rise until thrall.

You've defused your own argument here. A leader interested in peace DID arise. Which means it WAS possible. Just because the leaders at the time weren't interested in peace given the circumstances that transpired (and there's nothing saying this could not have changed if events had gone differently) doesn't mean it would never have happened; in fact as you yourself admit, it DID happen. Which means the orcs weren't INCAPABLE of coexistence, it just took different circumstances to make that happen. Which means other options DID exist and COULD, at least in principle, have led to a different, more peaceful outcome. We don't know if it would have happened differently, but we also know it WASN'T impossible because coexistence DID happen eventually.

it’s not false when you say the alliance can’t kill or capture them that means they just have to take it again and again until the orcs wipe them out.

This rests on the premise that they CAN'T capture them; see above for why that's erroneous. If the premise was true the point would have merit, but the premise is false to begin with.

Repeating that it was the easy solution for the alliance will never make it true

No, the arguments I presented do that. That's how it works. "X is true BECAUSE...", not just "X is true". You're the one doing that. Heck, you even engaging with my presented options means you already agree with me - that genocide or concentration camps weren't the ONLY options, they were just easier than alternatives with uncertain or risky outcomes. And that's all I'm saying. I'm not arguing that another option would have magically solved the problem, guaranteed - just that it WAS an option, and that saying it wasn't is massive hypocrisy.

[VladlTutushkin]

I mean, in fairness, the EK was part of Kalimdor for a very very long time. Everywhere in Azeroth was. Besides the Dragon Isles, apparently.

I am talking about current Kalimdor, which is described as a homeland of the night elves, specifically Ashenvale and Hyjal, which are scared to them.

[Biomega]

No, I don't think orc children were killed, because the Old Horde canonically did not involve children.

Oh yes, I forgot, Thrall was a man grown and sprang fully formed from a cabbage patch.

This wasn't refugees, immigrants, or anything like that. This was a demon fueled army of killing machines.

And they were victims, too. You just don't want to admit that, because it's easier to see them as monsters instead of people. Makes them easier to cage like animals, and all that. And there were NO humans, none at all, who developed any kind of rapport with the orcs, right? RIGHT?

- You confuse Doyle for Watson. The Alliance leaders do not have the benefit of being omniscient players. They do not KNOW how the fel corruption worked, they do not KNOW the history of the orcs, they only know these invaders damn near slaughtered a whole continent. They have no guarantee it won't happen again, and their duty is to protect their people.

And I'm not saying they have meta knowledge. I'm saying they HAD other options, but chose not to take the risk. That's all. I never said those options were guaranteed to work, or that they should have known what was going to happen - but that doesn't mean they COULDN'T have made different choices. They just DIDN'T. My entire point was they HAD other options, but went with the one that was safest for them; and that it's grossly hypocritical to try and assume a moral high horse by pretending they ONLY had the options of either genocide or concentration camps. Only that.

- You employ hindsight, effectively stating the Alliance leaders should have known what we learned in later games.

No. I'm not saying they should have made their decision based on after-the-fact knowledge, I'm saying that had they chosen other options based on contemporary knowledge, WE know it COULD have led to other outcomes. Which means you cannot categorically exclude other options as impossible, because we know they WEREN'T - even if the people at the time couldn't know whether or not they were. It was still a choice they could have made, assuming great risk; irrespective of our knowledge of how big that risk actually was.

[Nymrohd]

That they just keep taking and taking away from the Alliance. The Horde keeps gaining while the Alliance loses. One little sidequest and Undercity is already ready to open and be a capital city again. Can't do that with Theramore and Teldrassil. And yeah I know that the Alliance got Stormgarde back, but that isn't even a proper city. And eventually, at some point we're going to get Gilneas back... eventually.

Kalimdor as it stands seems pretty lost though.

Also, the way the Alliance lost those places as well. All of them pretty brutal. Wasn't just losing a city, the land itself keeps getting destroyed every time the Alliance loses something, making it much harder to regain.

For me the crazy thing is what the Horde has gained with Allied races since Legion. The Alliance got Mechagon which is pretty darn sweet, they got the Dark Iron officially which is a solid underground town and they got Kul Tiras which is missing its greatest asset (the fleet) though it does have the resources to rebuild that (it would still take a long while). Oh and a space ship. Obviously not allowed to use the space ship or Mechagon's tech in the war ofc since we wanted parity . . .
The Horde got Highmountain, Suramar and Zandalar. Three functional kingdoms, any one of which was as powerful as the stronger Horde races if not more so. If there was any gap left from Vanilla, it's gone and tipped to the Horde side.

- - - Updated - - -

I didn't think you could get more hypocritical, but now we've arrived at concentration camps = "house them". They were not "housed". They were IMPRISONED. They were ABUSED. They were caged animals slowly dying of depression and misery, even in places where they WEREN'T made to fight for sport. And somehow you think that's the same as resettling them somewhere and effectively leaving them be?

What exactly do you suggest the Alliance should have done to the alien invaders that destroyed an entire kingdom and painted an entire continent in Blood? Give them land and let them be? I just don't get what people think the alternative to the camps was?
If I was an Alliance leader back then I've made my view point clear; force march them through the Dark Portal and instead of spending so many resources feeding them in camps for years, build a massive fortress around the portal and kill anything that steps through while having the Kirin Tor study and try to shut that portal down for good.