WoW:Dragonflight sucks. Bring back the systems

[Relapses]

Your sense of progression stays with you. You still get +15, +20 and harder and harder content - this is your progression. You just don’t get gear because you don’t need it since it does not matter in this challenge mode mythics, and you don’t need it for raids since you don’t raid.

Or we leave it the way it is because fixing things that aren't broken is a pretty terrible idea on its face.

[Lolites]

Your sense of progression stays with you. You still get +15, +20 and harder and harder content - this is your progression. You just don’t get gear because you don’t need it since it does not matter in this challenge mode mythics, and you don’t need it for raids since you don’t raid.

then remove gear from raids, shall we? bcs if removing gear from M+ is good idea then removing it from raids is too...
just need proper tuning, normal will be only one giving gear, hc will be chalanging but doable with gear from normal and a little effort, and mythic will be hardcore tuned to "one misstep and you are screwed", but possible with gear from normal, and then raiders will have their progresion, right? RIGHT?

or, maybe pull your head out of your ass and realise when people say progresion in wow they mean their CHARACTER progresion, not the content...
in the meantime, dont try to fix what is not broken, you dont want to do M+ only raid? fine YOU CAN FFS, unless you are in absolute peak guild like Method (do they still exist? ) you dont have to, you can definitely progress via raids only, it will take you longer, but if thats the only content you enjoy then do only that, and in the meantime dont try to screw with others just so you feel better about yourself...

also, hard to prove but i would bet you if you removed gear from both raid and M+, however the playercount would plummet raids participation would take BIGGER hit than M+, given that most people dont even bother with mythic raiding yet they run keys WAY ABOVE the "best gear" mark...

[Nadiru]

Right but in the case of mythic raiding your opponent isn't some also casual its the 1993 Bulls. Its literally the most elite difficult content in the game. Now if you're team goes into it with the mindset that they're gonna beat Jordan and play at the level to beat him then you are no longer simple beer league fuckers youre pros regardless of how you identify yourself.

People who participate in the most demanding elite content in the game are by no means casual. You have to twist and skew the meaning of the word to fit that. It's pure debased abuse of language so they can identify themselves with that group. God fucking knows why.

Its just not that hard breh, the game itself is a casual game and all of its content can be played as such.

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Your sense of progression stays with you. You still get +15, +20 and harder and harder content - this is your progression. You just don’t get gear because you don’t need it since it does not matter in this challenge mode mythics, and you don’t need it for raids since you don’t raid.

There are lots of people who do more than one kind of endgame content. This is a reheated "pvpers shouldn't get gear" argument that was canned a decade+ ago. It's ok for raiding to not be the only loot source in the game.

[FelPlague]

ah yes of course, blizzard is going to budget cut the biggest and main-est part of the game since its launch in 2004

l m f a o

casual questers are delusional

raiding was not the biggest and main-est part of the game. That is the point, before the extra difficulties LFR included a miniscule minority raided, to the point the % of players to the % of effort put into them was inbalanced.
they said it themselves, if not for lfr, raiding would have been reduced because it was not worth the development costs.

[crusadernero]

The game is foundationally built on a treadmill. It starts at level 1.

Sure, to a certain extent. The good thing about leveling, is that.. it ends. until you do it again, every 2 years(or so). It doesnt take a very long time either. Now, the neverending grind features (like AP), never had an end. They started in Legion and kept going until BfA was over. In SL, new kind of endgame grinds took over.

And unlike leveling, you actually lose what you grinded. The AP you grinded? Gone. The conduits++ in SL? Gone. You get to keep the levels.

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raiding was not the biggest and main-est part of the game. That is the point, before the extra difficulties LFR included a miniscule minority raided, to the point the % of players to the % of effort put into them was inbalanced.
they said it themselves, if not for lfr, raiding would have been reduced because it was not worth the development costs.

Even though im not happy with LFR overall, im glad its there. All those who activly raid(above normal) should be very glad LFR is in the game. If it wasnt, alot of raids would never have been made.

LFR is there so players gets to see it.

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It's fascinating just how many people broke their brains with addiction to perpetual treadmills.

Yep, its quite interesting to see. I cant fathom why people want boring grinds like AP back. Makes no sense. Now everyone can take part in pvp, m+ & raids without wasting time outside of those activites for a pointless grind in order to participate in said content.

[oldgeezer]

It's the first expansion in forever that hasn't instantly grabbed me. I'm still levelling my main. But that's ok, I've got no rush to get anything done.

[Lei]

They were for specific single items, and aside from certain unique things like shoulder enchants from Hodir (a roundly hated rep grind) were something you could get by without - there were other sources of i200+ items for those slots (such as the Naxx raid), so not grinding them out was an option.

MoP made a huge source of currency the dailies, and gated tons of stuff behind rep, including some factions being gated behind others. It was far worse than WotLK or Cata had ever been. However, and this is probably why you don't hear people hating on MoP as much, after that horrible first tier Blizzard moved away from that and the later tiers had much milder rep grinds (though Isle of Thunder still had a daily circuit, etc.). In WoD they were less important again, which would've been fine if only WoD hadn't had its content trimmed so much.

What was that "tons of stuff" being gated behind mop factions? This argument doesn't stand. If one side of your argument is that ilevel 200 gear came from naxx, then mop daily rep grind ilevel (489) items came from Mogushan vaults, and heart of fear. Klaxxi, shado-pan, Golden lotus, august celestials all gave ilevel 489 gear.
I was talking about preraid bis grind, that people said "you had to do" I assume you too?
And it's not like you could waltz up to mop vendors and buy gear, you needed emblems, remember? Which had a weekly cap. So you didn't need to get revered and exalted with everyone at once, because you couldn't afford everything anyways. Secondly, if you did all the quests (with klaxxi for example), you almost reached revered just by that, and you only needed revered.
Klaxxi had a set of 7 daily quest
Shado-pan had a set of 4 daily quest
golden lotus had a set of 7 - but by the time you got here, you were most likely done with klaxxi
august celestials were a bit different because it depended on which temple was the daily, but by the time you opened up august celestials, you were done with shado-pan most likely. It was not more than daily 4-5-6 quest.
So is this too much? Please.
And again. Mop started at the end of september. I was DONE with everything in mid november, and took less effort than a week in legion. When were you done in Legion bfa and shadowlands? Touchy subject but how's your renown going in DF? Compared to that couple of daily quests I mentioned above for normal raid ilevel gear? I just reached some renown with someone who gave me an ilevel 376 belt I think. I have ilevel 379 from a world quest from wednesday. Feels amazingly rewarding. I'd do a mop ten times over than anything we had after and including DF as it stands now. Let's go dirt farm 6-8 hours a day! Oh no it's nerfed! Oh no, it's nerfed again!
(It wouldn't surprise me if the most effective way to farm renown was on day 1-2 is to not open up world quests beause it scales up the world to you, before opening up wqs waking shores was level 61 so you could farm anything nxt to mobs because they were grey, and just farm dirt before it got nerfed twice and ppl started to swarm it as well and before the maps were empty - works as intended I suppose )

[Celement]

raiding was not the biggest and main-est part of the game. That is the point, before the extra difficulties LFR included a miniscule minority raided, to the point the % of players to the % of effort put into them was inbalanced.
they said it themselves, if not for lfr, raiding would have been reduced because it was not worth the development costs.

They also said wow would never have a cash shop because it is to high quality of a game for one.

Anything from the blizzard PR department needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. It is very unlikely blizzard would of cut back on their main selling feature. Hell I remember the extreme backlash when they tried making content patches without a raid tier.

At best what you saw with the raid statement was art via accountant.

[pahbi]

It's not even a money thing. We already know from CModes that static or squished item level 5 mans are not interesting or engaged with. There's no point in taking away something that works and replacing it with something that we already know doesn't work just so players can feel like their preferred version of content isn't competing with another form of content.

I was thinking more along the lines of solo content; as much as I despised toreghast, it actually had potential to be a entertaining solo dungeon, same with islands, pet dungeons and so many other things could offer novel alternate progression for casuals.

[FelPlague]

They also said wow would never have a cash shop because it is to high quality of a game for one.

Anything from the blizzard PR department needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. It is very unlikely blizzard would of cut back on their main selling feature. Hell I remember the extreme backlash when they tried making content patches without a raid tier.

At best what you saw with the raid statement was art via accountant.

When in the fucking world did they say that?
also an opinion and a statistical fact is not the same thing.
the fact a miniscule percent of players raided is not PR

[Stickiler]

Right but in the case of mythic raiding your opponent isn't some also casual its the 1993 Bulls. Its literally the most elite difficult content in the game. Now if you're team goes into it with the mindset that they're gonna beat Jordan and play at the level to beat him then you are no longer simple beer league fuckers youre pros regardless of how you identify yourself.

People who participate in the most demanding elite content in the game are by no means casual. You have to twist and skew the meaning of the word to fit that. It's pure debased abuse of language so they can identify themselves with that group. God fucking knows why.

The problem with your analogy is that mythic raiding isn't one set difficulty. Sure, the RWF might be the 93 Bulls, but thats because they're going in with normal/heroic gear, with no nerfs. With the ability to get mythic gear outside of mythic raiding, you can hit a point where you've got full mythic gear, and the mythic raids have also gone through multiple nerfs, making them significantly easier than they were at the start. That's where the casual mythic raiding comes in, after the nerfs, after the gear treadmill has been ridden to a high level, and essentially trivialised the encounters. Mythic might be the 93 Bulls, but give it some months and it'll be like the 93 Bulls, except all their hands and legs are broken.

[Swnem]

Yes, i remember Legion/BfA/SL as great. Yup, i didn't burn out from WoW with the amazing Legion AP grind where my spirit was crushed and i stopped caring about the game and loathing the devs.
Nope. It was all amazing.

[Ielenia]

Such as?

The simple fact it has world quests Dragonflight leaves WoD in the dust. But then we also have:
• Black Dragonflight castle assault;
• Centaur dailies;
• Centaur hunts;
• Dragonriding races, including a multiplayer race;
• Mythic+ dungeons;
• Decent reputation rewards;
• Expanded professions.

And more, of course. What did WoD have?
• One singular daily quest per day where all you did was kill mobs for meager 1-0.5% progress, unless you got the Inn in your garrison for 1-2 dungeon dailies.
• Garrison.
• Challenge Mode dungeons (which are vastly inferior to Mythic+)

WoD also had zero world events.

[Selah]

Depends on how you define "systems". Technically talent points and dragon riding are systems. Those systems are fine and engaging. If you're talking about endless grinding, then fuck no.

[Kilpi]

where is the mission table and follower system?
where is the artifact weapon talent tree that made you more and more powerful?
where is the suramar endgame zone?

From those three only Suramar was a good thing. Mission tables were always pointless, followers were just glorified pets and artifact weapons were cool as a concept, but never really enjoyed them (mostly because it made the cool legendary Warcraft weapons uncommon items that everyone had, like making Ashbringer and Doomhammer comparable to any starter zone white sword or mace).

[Arteaga-2049]

This is serious?

[JustaRandomReindeer]

From those three only Suramar was a good thing. Mission tables were always pointless, followers were just glorified pets and artifact weapons were cool as a concept, but never really enjoyed them (mostly because it made the cool legendary Warcraft weapons uncommon items that everyone had, like making Ashbringer and Doomhammer comparable to any starter zone white sword or mace).

Mission tables were not always pointless. Back in the day people used to make a lot of gold out of them. They were also a good way to farm rep, currencies, and cosmetics. Combat allies also helped with world quests. The rewards were nerfed because it was deemed to be a feature worth putting time into.

[Kilpi]

Mission tables were not always pointless. Back in the day people used to make a lot of gold out of them. They were also a good way to farm rep, currencies, and cosmetics. Combat allies also helped with world quests. The rewards were nerfed because it was deemed to be a feature worth putting time into.

Ok, I should've been more specific; gameplay wise pointless. Doing mission tables from your phone without logging in to game; not fun gameplay. Combat allies helped sure, but it could've very well be a random buff or a floating orb; as I said, glorified pets for all classes.

[Nalam the Venom]

I dinged 70 and I checked out new content, some are familiar like from good ol' Legion days, some features improved or revamped, but overall they removed all the systems that made Legion/BFA/Shadowlands great, which at the end this expansion will suffer.


Thoughts?

If there is no long progression system or FOMO currency, Then there really is no point in playing.

Can start the expansion in a year without it impacting anything.

So why start in launch month?

[Bee76]

generally agreed.

i will never understand why people on these forums piss and moan so loudly about systems that gave players rewards for playing.

This. A lot of players dont care about cosmetics, and grinding for cosmetics didnt work well in SL. Wow only offers lvl and ilvl as u mentioned, and with the removal of wf/tf and secondary systems, there is nothing left that will keep players playing in the long run.

And fpr the ilvl prgression (pve) they offer 4 old dungeons and 4 new dungeons and 1 raid with lockout. Raids have been overtuned in SL and im pretty sure they will be in DF. And M+ ilvl rewards will be centred around that weekly loot, because the in dungeon reward will be obsolete by ilvl fast.

Im not interested in another SL like expansions with even less content for char progression.