FFXIV Criticisms

[Moralgy]

Nope. Don't need to. You can just watch POV clears from tanks.

Compared to literally everyone else on the team, the tanks have the easiest job. They have a much less complicated rotation than a DPS does and they don't have the demands on them to minimize healing done to maximize DPS uptime that healers have to do.

Funny thing is, only the people who have their ego wrapped up in tanking ever actually disagree with this. Most people agree, tank is where you place your weakest players, because they have the easiest job.

Off patch I would agree with you sorta, on patch, tanks being a weak player means you never clear an ult. Even then, its really only after stats become maxed via the ult becoming very outdated that I would agree. Phys ranged is the easiest job when dps checks are not important though, by a long shot even.

The number of "i timed my mit wrong" wipes I had in dsr and top while progging was pretty high, and its not because they were weak players, its because of the weird ass timing you have to do for popping mits to make them be up at the right time to catch busters and autos with it. After a few patches that doesnt matter anymore really, but on patch, it is very important.

Savage outside of week 1 prog though tanking is kinda braindead tbqh.

[Grinning Serpent]

Off patch I would agree with you sorta, on patch, tanks being a weak player means you never clear an ult. Even then, its really only after stats become maxed via the ult becoming very outdated that I would agree. Phys ranged is the easiest job when dps checks are not important though, by a long shot even.

The number of "i timed my mit wrong" wipes I had in dsr and top while progging was pretty high, and its not because they were weak players, its because of the weird ass timing you have to do for popping mits to make them be up at the right time to catch busters and autos with it. After a few patches that doesnt matter anymore really, but on patch, it is very important.

Savage outside of week 1 prog though tanking is kinda braindead tbqh.

I mean, yeah I guess you can claim DPS (pranged being the easiest of DPS) is the easiest role when there are no enrage timers or other meaningful DPS checks. But I generally don't really factor casual content in when I'm making assessments since casual content is quite literally designed such that one or two competent players can carry the rest of the party being dead weight (depends on the type of content.) But for "meaningful" content, I think it's hard to believe that anything but tank is the easiest, in EW at least. I think in ShB it was more even between pranged and tanks, since tanks *did* need to position the boss and do some other things in those encounters, particularly in regards to maximizing melee uptime/positionals.

I think the removal of that (coupled with the removal of positionals being important for melee DPS outside of like week 1 prog) was one of the biggest mistakes made between ShB and EW. I'm assuming that they were operating under the idea that the new tank mits and their sensitivity to timing would account for that loss, but... not really? When tankbusters have a cast bar (instead of being "every third autoswing" or something) and all mitigation abilities are oGCD, I don't see how it's even possible to fail to execute your mitigation at the right time. I suppose triple weaving will result in clipping, but an occasional instance of that is such a trivial DPS fluctuation that it's not really worth lingering on. And if DRK/GNB having to occasionally triple weave was such a DPS loss, you'd just switch to unga bunga or PLD, neither of whom have weaving issues.

What made it hard to time mits in DSR and TOP? I never noticed my group's tanks struggling with that during their prog. Was it more of trying to plan out your mits, not so much as timing them properly? You could probably pop the mit in the last 0.5 or 0.25 sec of the castbar to snapshot the tankbuster and still have duration left for following autoswings. That's always what I've done.


I know better than to assume we'll get more involved or engaging DPS cycles (I'd love for something like WoW Warrior's Shield Slam with refresh procs, or Arms/Fury's Sudden Death procs), but I at least hope they make fight design in 7.0 a little more inspired. Or at least, don't save up all of your neat ideas for ultimates, because I feel like ultimates are such an extreme demand on player time and energy compared to savages (which, even if you can't get into a week 1-2 group, you can still at least prog in PF via Discord groups etc) that it's a little unfair for the majority of players. You wouldn't think it matters so much, but by automating boss positioning they really did remove a lot of the room for optimization and creativity from tanks and their raid groups. I *loved* learning uptime strats or coming up with our own demented ways to simplify certain things in ShB. It felt awesome when your group finally mastered an uptime strat and you got to see proof of the success by the boss dying significantly faster than before.

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Off patch I would agree with you sorta, on patch, tanks being a weak player means you never clear an ult. Even then, its really only after stats become maxed via the ult becoming very outdated that I would agree. Phys ranged is the easiest job when dps checks are not important though, by a long shot even.

The number of "i timed my mit wrong" wipes I had in dsr and top while progging was pretty high, and its not because they were weak players, its because of the weird ass timing you have to do for popping mits to make them be up at the right time to catch busters and autos with it. After a few patches that doesnt matter anymore really, but on patch, it is very important.

Savage outside of week 1 prog though tanking is kinda braindead tbqh.

I mean, yeah I guess you can claim DPS (pranged being the easiest of DPS) is the easiest role when there are no enrage timers or other meaningful DPS checks. But I generally don't really factor casual content in when I'm making assessments since casual content is quite literally designed such that one or two competent players can carry the rest of the party being dead weight (depends on the type of content.) But for "meaningful" content, I think it's hard to believe that anything but tank is the easiest, in EW at least. I think in ShB it was more even between pranged and tanks, since tanks *did* need to position the boss and do some other things in those encounters, particularly in regards to maximizing melee uptime/positionals.

I think the removal of that (coupled with the removal of positionals being important for melee DPS outside of like week 1 prog) was one of the biggest mistakes made between ShB and EW. I'm assuming that they were operating under the idea that the new tank mits and their sensitivity to timing would account for that loss, but... not really? When tankbusters have a cast bar (instead of being "every third autoswing" or something) and all mitigation abilities are oGCD, I don't see how it's even possible to fail to execute your mitigation at the right time. I suppose triple weaving will result in clipping, but an occasional instance of that is such a trivial DPS fluctuation that it's not really worth lingering on. And if DRK/GNB having to occasionally triple weave was such a DPS loss, you'd just switch to unga bunga or PLD, neither of whom have weaving issues.

What made it hard to time mits in DSR and TOP? I never noticed my group's tanks struggling with that during their prog. Was it more of trying to plan out your mits, not so much as timing them properly? You could probably pop the mit in the last 0.5 or 0.25 sec of the castbar to snapshot the tankbuster and still have duration left for following autoswings. That's always what I've done.

[EmperorofMankind]

I mean it has tons and tons of filler quests that basically destroy the feel of the story, most of quests are not voiced (it is 2023 and still most of the stuff is not voiced despite the fact the game is produced by AAA studio), you are forced to play through one expansion to the next (in wow you can access the newest expansion immediately, after reaching a correct level), every class has only one spec and etc.
I could go on and on, so my question stands what is so great about this mmo that people force themselves through the grind that is main story quest aka msq.
I lost count how many time i spent clicking on mouse to go through the long *** conversation during msq,
So i would be thankful for the info,
Cheers

[Mysterymask]

Because they do and their taste isn't yours?

I mean my brothers favorite game is one where you legitimately drive a bus around. Half the people on the forum don't share my taste and half the people I work with think anything that isn't CoD or Madden isn't worth playing

[Moralgy]

I play for the raid content. Savage is fun, ultimates are the peak of enjoyment any mmo has ever provided me from PVE.

If you are a casual and you dont really like the story, its prob not for you though. That being said, the story kinda drags hard until like level 50+ quests.

[TheRevenantHero]

The community is far less toxic. The GMs actually punish people for trolling and/or being toxic. The classes are a lot of fun to play. You're not stuck with the same class on a single character which lessens the need for alts. The world is beutificully detailed. Mounts have their own theme songs when you use them with different mounts getting different songs.

I could keep going but there's some examples of why the game is so popular.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

• Baby's first JRPG/visual novel. We've had an entire generation of people grow up having never been exposed to a high production value JRPG before so they are getting mindblown by their first exposure.

• Later on the game increasingly panders to tumblrites/redditors with the protagonist worship, feel good stuff, dress up, etc.

• The state of the RPG genre is abysmal. We haven't had a big budget high fantasy RPG since the Witcher 3 almost 8 years ago, so people's options are limited. You either play WoW/GW2/ESO/FFXIV, lower budget JRPGs like Trails or Tales of or Atelier, or you have to play old games. Or you accept that the state of high production value, audio visual high fantasy fiction is just in a really really bad place and find other things to fill your time with.

• ERP

Also, it should be noted that the state of music is really bad. FFXIV is a lot of people's first exposure to a decent soundtrack. Or at least, it was. Not fond of the soundtrack being increasingly dominated by pop songs as of the last two expansions. Still better than almost everything you hear in a Western game, though.

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Also, the game does look overall pretty enough, at least in cutscenes where you get to stare at your character model with proper cutscene lighting applied on him to make him look good. The characters look attractive and the armor designs are nice. Nice spell effects in cutscenes. The game does have graphical issues (poor lighting issues and shadows outside of cutscenes, low resolution ground textures, etc). No matter how much people have recommended ESO to me, the plastic looking characters and the ugly armors and the environments and overall look of that game are a dealbreaker to me. GW2 doesn't look bad but it usually doesn't look very pretty either. Most MMOs look hideous. SWTOR, STO, Rift, LotRO, etc. FFXIV is perhaps the nicest looking high fantasy RPG in recent memory behind WoW and Trails/Atelier, but again that's more indicative of the state of the genre. So you're back to people's choices being limited.

Another appealing thing about FFXIV is that you can comfortably play it with a controller. Once you experience it, it is hard to go back to mouse and keyboard, and the controller and camera mods for WoW and GW2 simply don't compare.

[Irian]

If you like the story you'll like the game. If you don't, you probably won't.

I didn't always feel this way, but these days I'd say that the only merit the game has is pretty much just playing through the story. Endgame really isn't worth it. Ultimates are purely for cosmetics and Savage raiding doesn't give any meaningful rewards other than good gear for the current tier. If you don't like being on the endless hamster wheel, don't bother.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

If you like the story you'll like the game. If you don't, you probably won't.

I didn't always feel this way, but these days I'd say that the only merit the game has is pretty much just playing through the story. Endgame really isn't worth it. Ultimates are purely for cosmetics and Savage raiding doesn't give any meaningful rewards other than good gear for the current tier. If you don't like being on the endless hamster wheel, don't bother.

It has to be emphasized that you're not really playing a game, or an RPG. Everything is gated by story progression. To reach endgame (the latest raids people are doing), you have to go through a 400+ hour long story, half of which is spent watching cutscenes. Another 25% of your time is spent talking to NPCs or running to the next NPC. What little actual gameplay there is, is braindead easy. You're usually asked to go out into a spot at a field and spawn three mobs, two shot them, then run back to the NPC to watch more cutscenes. Or you do a scripted solo instance. Occasionally you will get to queue for a dungeon to do with other people, though you can now do most of the story with NPCs now. When I went through the story, it was never challenging outside of four instances, all of which have now been nerfed into the ground or reworked or trivialized by powercreep (King Moogle Mog, the ARR Steps of Faith, the level 70 Red Mage instance, and the In From the Cold duty in Endwalker). You do not get to pick talents or perform RPG customization of any sort. It really is a game for someone who wants to passively consume a safe anime story.

[EmperorofMankind]

If you like the story you'll like the game. If you don't, you probably won't.

I didn't always feel this way, but these days I'd say that the only merit the game has is pretty much just playing through the story. Endgame really isn't worth it. Ultimates are purely for cosmetics and Savage raiding doesn't give any meaningful rewards other than good gear for the current tier. If you don't like being on the endless hamster wheel, don't bother.

It is not about me liking the story or not, it is about the story dragging itself. Long unnecessary dialog lines, having one quest start in one part of continent and finishes in another. It wouldn't be so bad if they would be all voiced but they are not. I really get tired reading them.

It has to be emphasized that you're not really playing a game, or an RPG. Everything is gated by story progression. To reach endgame (the latest raids people are doing), you have to go through a 400+ hour long story, half of which is spent watching cutscenes. Another 25% of your time is spent talking to NPCs or running to the next NPC. What little actual gameplay there is, is braindead easy. You're usually asked to go out into a spot at a field and spawn three mobs, two shot them, then run back to the NPC to watch more cutscenes. Or you do a scripted solo instance. Occasionally you will get to queue for a dungeon to do with other people, though you can now do most of the story with NPCs now. When I went through the story, it was never challenging outside of four instances, all of which have now been nerfed into the ground or reworked or trivialized by powercreep (King Moogle Mog, the ARR Steps of Faith, the level 70 Red Mage instance, and the In From the Cold duty in Endwalker). You do not get to pick talents or perform RPG customization of any sort. It really is a game for someone who wants to passively consume a safe anime story.

That's what I meant it is a grind but not a pleasant grind either. I play a lot of point and click games and idle games, they are grind games but it is kinda a nice grind. In any other mmo/rpg i am not forced to such horrible grind.

• Baby's first JRPG/visual novel. We've had an entire generation of people grow up having never been exposed to a high production value JRPG before so they are getting mindblown by their first exposure.

• Later on the game increasingly panders to tumblrites/redditors with the protagonist worship, feel good stuff, dress up, etc.

• The state of the RPG genre is abysmal. We haven't had a big budget high fantasy RPG since the Witcher 3 almost 8 years ago, so people's options are limited. You either play WoW/GW2/ESO/FFXIV, lower budget JRPGs like Trails or Tales of or Atelier, or you have to play old games. Or you accept that the state of high production value, audio visual high fantasy fiction is just in a really really bad place and find other things to fill your time with.

• ERP

Also, it should be noted that the state of music is really bad. FFXIV is a lot of people's first exposure to a decent soundtrack. Or at least, it was. Not fond of the soundtrack being increasingly dominated by pop songs as of the last two expansions. Still better than almost everything you hear in a Western game, though.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the game does look overall pretty enough, at least in cutscenes where you get to stare at your character model with proper cutscene lighting applied on him to make him look good. The characters look attractive and the armor designs are nice. Nice spell effects in cutscenes. The game does have graphical issues (poor lighting issues and shadows outside of cutscenes, low resolution ground textures, etc). No matter how much people have recommended ESO to me, the plastic looking characters and the ugly armors and the environments and overall look of that game are a dealbreaker to me. GW2 doesn't look bad but it usually doesn't look very pretty either. Most MMOs look hideous. SWTOR, STO, Rift, LotRO, etc. FFXIV is perhaps the nicest looking high fantasy RPG in recent memory behind WoW and Trails/Atelier, but again that's more indicative of the state of the genre. So you're back to people's choices being limited.

Another appealing thing about FFXIV is that you can comfortably play it with a controller. Once you experience it, it is hard to go back to mouse and keyboard, and the controller and camera mods for WoW and GW2 simply don't compare.

I do not know where you live but in my country, when i was growing up, people who were interested in jrpg or ffxiv were considered wimps/pussies.
That is not true we had games like pathfinder kingmaker/wrath of the righteous, divinity original sin 1/2 , tyranny, ac origins, cyberpunk had a nice story despite being a horrible game. Baldurs gate 3 will be releasing soon.
Few years ago i came to a conclusion that i cannot commit myself to one game anymore because of that i switch my mmo's rather regullary, i usually cannot play one mmo for more then 30 days because i am getting bored.
I also play my older games like baldurs gate, legacy of kain, gothic if i get nostalgic vibes.
Gothic 3 had awesome music. Mirror edge and rome total war also had decent music not to mention heroes of might and magic 3.
I have to agree with eso statement, i hate the character design every race looks the same. GW2 on the other hand has too many flashy effects and animations and because of my illness i cannot play too flashy games but i have to disagree on how the characters look. They look 100% better than those in ffxiv. You cannot accept game who were released in 2007 to have same look that ffxiv does. When i play my warden in lotro i really do not think he looks hideous in contrary he looks nice. It is more important that all characters in specific game do not break immersion aka have the same art design.
A console peasant then :P I am from PC master race.
I am pc gamer since the 90's and i would never touch a console game ever. Mouse and keyboard are superior to controller in every way.

The community is far less toxic. The GMs actually punish people for trolling and/or being toxic. The classes are a lot of fun to play. You're not stuck with the same class on a single character which lessens the need for alts. The world is beutificully detailed. Mounts have their own theme songs when you use them with different mounts getting different songs.

I could keep going but there's some examples of why the game is so popular.

Community being toxic or not is not the main reason for playing a game, it can be a secondary reason. I could give info about single player games that have fun classes to play. This game multi class system on single character is horrible. If i create paladin i want to be a paladin only like in any other mmo's. It is more then that because i want my mage to be female of specific race but i want warrior to be male of a specific race. This game punishes me for that. The classes have only one spec which is lazy design decission. In wow if i want to play a paladin i can be dps, tank or a healer. In ffxiv if choose white mage i can only be a healer which forces me to play classes that lore i do not like because they have a specific combat role.

[MrLachyG]

I mean it has tons and tons of filler quests that basically destroy the feel of the story, most of quests are not voiced (it is 2023 and still most of the stuff is not voiced despite the fact the game is produced by AAA studio), you are forced to play through one expansion to the next (in wow you can access the newest expansion immediately, after reaching a correct level), every class has only one spec and etc.
I could go on and on, so my question stands what is so great about this mmo that people force themselves through the grind that is main story quest aka msq.
I lost count how many time i spent clicking on mouse to go through the long *** conversation during msq,
So i would be thankful for the info,
Cheers

because people have different tastes?

[EmperorofMankind]

because people have different tastes?

What tastes have to do with this? This has nothing to do with tastes but rather with the execution. We have year 2023, not year 2007, if a game is made by AAA studio there are some standards that must be kept like voice acting, proper animations etc. When Oblivion was released in 2006 it had full voice acting. If FFXIV was made by indie studio i wouldn't complain but it is made by square enix, one of the biggest companies, so i expect a proper budget for it that include voice acting. I have played mods for games that had more voice acting than ffxiv. So it has nothing to do with tastes.
Another thing when i play other rpg's every quest have meaning, in ffxiv only 1 to 10 quest have an impact on the world.
So yeah, that is my gripe with this game.

[TheRevenantHero]

It is not about me liking the story or not, it is about the story dragging itself. Long unnecessary dialog lines, having one quest start in one part of continent and finishes in another. It wouldn't be so bad if they would be all voiced but they are not. I really get tired reading them.



That's what I meant it is a grind but not a pleasant grind either. I play a lot of point and click games and idle games, they are grind games but it is kinda a nice grind. In any other mmo/rpg i am not forced to such horrible grind.



I do not know where you live but in my country, when i was growing up, people who were interested in jrpg or ffxiv were considered wimps/pussies.
That is not true we had games like pathfinder kingmaker/wrath of the righteous, divinity original sin 1/2 , tyranny, ac origins, cyberpunk had a nice story despite being a horrible game. Baldurs gate 3 will be releasing soon.
Few years ago i came to a conclusion that i cannot commit myself to one game anymore because of that i switch my mmo's rather regullary, i usually cannot play one mmo for more then 30 days because i am getting bored.
I also play my older games like baldurs gate, legacy of kain, gothic if i get nostalgic vibes.
Gothic 3 had awesome music. Mirror edge and rome total war also had decent music not to mention heroes of might and magic 3.
I have to agree with eso statement, i hate the character design every race looks the same. GW2 on the other hand has too many flashy effects and animations and because of my illness i cannot play too flashy games but i have to disagree on how the characters look. They look 100% better than those in ffxiv. You cannot accept game who were released in 2007 to have same look that ffxiv does. When i play my warden in lotro i really do not think he looks hideous in contrary he looks nice. It is more important that all characters in specific game do not break immersion aka have the same art design.
A console peasant then :P I am from PC master race.
I am pc gamer since the 90's and i would never touch a console game ever. Mouse and keyboard are superior to controller in every way.



Community being toxic or not is not the main reason for playing a game, it can be a secondary reason. I could give info about single player games that have fun classes to play. This game multi class system on single character is horrible. If i create paladin i want to be a paladin only like in any other mmo's. It is more then that because i want my mage to be female of specific race but i want warrior to be male of a specific race. This game punishes me for that. The classes have only one spec which is lazy design decission. In wow if i want to play a paladin i can be dps, tank or a healer. In ffxiv if choose white mage i can only be a healer which forces me to play classes that lore i do not like because they have a specific combat role.

The community not being super toxic in an mmo is a HUGE deal. And bringing up single players games is literally irrelevant to this topic. And the multi-class system does NOT punish you. You can still make alts, the game just makes so that you don't HAVE TO. And each class having one spec is not lazy design and it's mind-boggling that you'd say it is. It's clear you are just going to do mental gymnastics to say something negative about the game.

[Ghost of Cow]

The alts question is interesting...it's great that XIV lets you play all classes on one character, but at the same time your progression is throttled by weekly caps just like any other MMO. The difference being that in those other MMOs, you can easily level up other jobs and have separate weekly timers for each one of them.

Trying that in XIV would be...daunting to say the least?

It doesn't matter for 90% of players probably, but I'm sure there's a segment that finds the job system and difficulty of progressing alts a bit off-putting in that regard.

[zealo]

The alts question is interesting...it's great that XIV lets you play all classes on one character, but at the same time your progression is throttled by weekly caps just like any other MMO. The difference being that in those other MMOs, you can easily level up other jobs and have separate weekly timers for each one of them.

Trying that in XIV would be...daunting to say the least?

It doesn't matter for 90% of players probably, but I'm sure there's a segment that finds the job system and difficulty of progressing alts a bit off-putting in that regard.

Really the biggest problem with end-game gearing in this game.

450 tomes a week and a weekly cap on raid loot / books isn't enough to actually gear all the jobs the game lets you level on one character at the same time in any reasonable time frame beyond crafted gear.

I kinda understand they don't want people to progress too quickly on a single job immediately after the release of a tier, but these restrictions remain in effect for far too long after that. Like, they should be lifted in the next major odd numbered patch after a raid tier at it's latest, not only for a couple of weeks before the release of the next set of raid bosses.

[EmperorofMankind]

The community not being super toxic in an mmo is a HUGE deal. And bringing up single players games is literally irrelevant to this topic. And the multi-class system does NOT punish you. You can still make alts, the game just makes so that you don't HAVE TO. And each class having one spec is not lazy design and it's mind-boggling that you'd say it is. It's clear you are just going to do mental gymnastics to say something negative about the game.

Community being toxic or not is only relevant when you are playing a game and not when you are choosing a game to play. If the community is not toxic is it a huge incentive to keep playing but what initially hooked you up was the gameplay/story etc.
Multi-class does punish me because if i have already committed myself to one character it means i spend a long time finishing msq and if i want to make an alt i have to do this over again or i can spend over 20 euros to skip the story. In wow there are many things that are account unlocked, so if i do them on one character there unlocked on all my characters.
One spec per class is lazy design, let me prove it.
In gw2 your attacks are based on the weapon you choose so you basically can be anything on every class not to mention elite specializations gives you the opportunity to totally change your playstyle while playing a specific class.
In ESO every class has tons of skill tries that allow you to change your playstyle. One awesome thing is that you can explore the world as you see fit. You are not being held by invisible hand and told you must do this now, visit this area etc.
In wow, due to chromie time you can level in any expansion, you are not forced to single expansion until the latest expansion.
When it comes to swtor, at least every class has three specs. One damage feels different from another in same spec. On top of that it has the best pvp since i am pve guy and still love pvp in swtor that saying something since i do not play pvp in other games.
I really do not get why you say having only one spec per class is not lazy design. I remember when demon hunter was released with only 2 specs how many people was pissed. Not to mention that druid has four specs.
I haven't played lotro in long time so i won't talk about this mmo here.
Look i played FFXIV since 2.0. so i know what i am talking about. I was giving this game many chances.
So what is not "mental gymnastics" for you then?
I like many parts of the ffxiv but that doesn't mean I won't criticise it.

[TheRevenantHero]

Community being toxic or not is only relevant when you are playing a game and not when you are choosing a game to play. If the community is not toxic is it a huge incentive to keep playing but what initially hooked you up was the gameplay/story etc.
Multi-class does punish me because if i have already committed myself to one character it means i spend a long time finishing msq and if i want to make an alt i have to do this over again or i can spend over 20 euros to skip the story. In wow there are many things that are account unlocked, so if i do them on one character there unlocked on all my characters.
One spec per class is lazy design, let me prove it.
In gw2 your attacks are based on the weapon you choose so you basically can be anything on every class not to mention elite specializations gives you the opportunity to totally change your playstyle while playing a specific class.
In ESO every class has tons of skill tries that allow you to change your playstyle. One awesome thing is that you can explore the world as you see fit. You are not being held by invisible hand and told you must do this now, visit this area etc.
In wow, due to chromie time you can level in any expansion, you are not forced to single expansion until the latest expansion.
When it comes to swtor, at least every class has three specs. One damage feels different from another in same spec. On top of that it has the best pvp since i am pve guy and still love pvp in swtor that saying something since i do not play pvp in other games.
I really do not get why you say having only one spec per class is not lazy design. I remember when demon hunter was released with only 2 specs how many people was pissed. Not to mention that druid has four specs.
I haven't played lotro in long time so i won't talk about this mmo here.
Look i played FFXIV since 2.0. so i know what i am talking about. I was giving this game many chances.
So what is not "mental gymnastics" for you then?
I like many parts of the ffxiv but that doesn't mean I won't criticise it.

When it comes to MMOs, it's VERY important whether or not the community is toxic. Because if the community is toxic, then I'm not going to want to get involved with group activities. And since it's an MMO, I may as well just not play it anymore. A toxic community can absolutely make an MMO terrible. I don't care about the story and gameplay since I'll never see a lot of it due to avoiding the jerks in the community.

There are catch-up mechanics for leveling a new class on the same character in FF14. And you're going to be punished the same way if you're making alts in WoW because you're not progressing the story if you're playing alts instead of finishing out a campaign on a single character first. And guess what? Being able to have multiple classes on the same character is the same as having different specs. If you swap weapons in GW2, it's basically the same as swapping class in FF14. It's not lazy design at all. You're objectively wrong in saying that. The only hand pushing you where to go is your own.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I highly doubt you played the game past the first story arc. Everything you've said about it is just not even remotely accurate and you are further proving you're just doing everything you can to say negative things about it even if you're wrong.

[Ghost of Cow]

There are catch-up mechanics for leveling a new class on the same character in FF14. And you're going to be punished the same way if you're making alts in WoW because you're not progressing the story if you're playing alts instead of finishing out a campaign on a single character first. And guess what? Being able to have multiple classes on the same character is the same as having different specs. If you swap weapons in GW2, it's basically the same as swapping class in FF14. It's not lazy design at all. You're objectively wrong in saying that. The only hand pushing you where to go is your own.

That's a horrible comparison, honestly. Especially using GW2, where of course there's no effect of currency caps or anything.

[doodle90]

Community being toxic or not is only relevant when you are playing a game and not when you are choosing a game to play. If the community is not toxic is it a huge incentive to keep playing but what initially hooked you up was the gameplay/story etc.
Multi-class does punish me because if i have already committed myself to one character it means i spend a long time finishing msq and if i want to make an alt i have to do this over again or i can spend over 20 euros to skip the story. In wow there are many things that are account unlocked, so if i do them on one character there unlocked on all my characters.
One spec per class is lazy design, let me prove it.
In gw2 your attacks are based on the weapon you choose so you basically can be anything on every class not to mention elite specializations gives you the opportunity to totally change your playstyle while playing a specific class.
In ESO every class has tons of skill tries that allow you to change your playstyle. One awesome thing is that you can explore the world as you see fit. You are not being held by invisible hand and told you must do this now, visit this area etc.
In wow, due to chromie time you can level in any expansion, you are not forced to single expansion until the latest expansion.
When it comes to swtor, at least every class has three specs. One damage feels different from another in same spec. On top of that it has the best pvp since i am pve guy and still love pvp in swtor that saying something since i do not play pvp in other games.
I really do not get why you say having only one spec per class is not lazy design. I remember when demon hunter was released with only 2 specs how many people was pissed. Not to mention that druid has four specs.
I haven't played lotro in long time so i won't talk about this mmo here.
Look i played FFXIV since 2.0. so i know what i am talking about. I was giving this game many chances.
So what is not "mental gymnastics" for you then?
I like many parts of the ffxiv but that doesn't mean I won't criticise it.

I play FFXI and FFXIV (and all the other mmos you listed) I would say the rigidity in classes is FF14s biggest draw back. Lets take FFXI (14s predecessor) the INSANE amount of build customization you have there compared to 14 is unreal. Each class usually shines in a specific role but a RDM can easily main heal or dps or enf or buff or tank if needed.

Your other drawbacks about alts is completely pointless though, as there is ZERO reason to have an ALT in 14. As your ONE character can be everything and you can even revisit story with that character. The gear is shared for most classes making gearing quicker for alt jobs. Which is far superior to WOW account unlocks. If I could change classes at will in WoW I would never level an alt again. Gearing would be so much easier.

[Xilurm]

I mean it has tons and tons of filler quests that basically destroy the feel of the story, most of quests are not voiced (it is 2023 and still most of the stuff is not voiced despite the fact the game is produced by AAA studio),

I'll tell you the reason I do, because there isn't really a general answer to this. Even though I assume the majority of people really do like the story first and foremost.

The reason it has filler quests is because it's an MMO.

you are forced to play through one expansion to the next (in wow you can access the newest expansion immediately, after reaching a correct level),

And the reason behind that is because the story is the most important aspect. Every time YoshiP has been asked that question he said that each expansion is like a season of a tv series. You'd watch them in order, not jump in a random season and go from there. Also, the expansions of WoW are pretty disconnected from each other, and there's usually different cast of characters most of the time. FFXIV is way more linear, and each expansion's story jumps straight into the next, with the same cast being present since the start. It's like a normal FF game, except in an MMO format and it goes for much longer.

every class has only one spec and etc.

I suppose that could be cool, but at the same time FFXIV has 20 jobs, and they add multiple each expansion, unlike in WoW where they only have 12 with multiple specs and add a class every other expansion (they skipped one expansion with Shadowlands). So I'd say that's around the same amount of work. BTW, FF jobs have longer rotations as well, including the profession jobs.

I could go on and on, so my question stands what is so great about this mmo that people force themselves through the grind that is main story quest aka msq.
I lost count how many time i spent clicking on mouse to go through the long *** conversation during msq,
So i would be thankful for the info,
Cheers

Because a lot of people do not force themselves to do that, they play because of that. The most important part of this game for me is the story, and that's the goal of the developers too, everything else is optional and always has been.