Crypt Lord class now possible thanks to Dracthyr Evokers?

[Teriz]

Never said the boss was mechanically the same as druids.

Druids have Adaptive Swarm. And a lot of other abilities that mechanically act the same as [Elereth's] spider/insect abilities.

Then you went on to give some rather poor comparisons.

That lore wise she’s a Druid and the themes of her abilities can be matched up with corresponding Druid abilities. (Like entangling roots, cyclone, force of nature. Hell even Denizen of the Dream is essentially a Crypt Lord ability but with Fae Dragons instead of Beetles.)

See above. You didn’t say lore, you said mechanics.

Which is all Blizzard had to go on to make Dinomancers druids.

That and the fact that they were beasts, and that Zalandari lived with dinosaurs, so Zalandari Druids would be dinomancers.

Just like they don’t have abilities to support dinosaur forms but we got Zandalari druids.

Dinosaurs pretty much just claw and bite. We’re not missing anything. Meanwhile a spider form just doing bear abilities is missing quite a bit, as Elereth Renferal clearly demonstrates.

It’ll be a zone at most, won’t have an entire expansion based around Undermine.

Really? It was a planned continent in vanilla.

Nah we got nothing close to the dragon class you proposed.
You always said it was going to be a class only and the race was gonna be the visage.

Read the thread again. I said you’re a dragon, and Blizzard solves the race problem of you being a dragon by giving you visage forms for equipped gear. Surprise! That’s exactly what happened.

None of which are from Alexstraza’s kit.

Exuberance? Life Binder? Abundance (Emerald Blossum)?

So now you’re seeing how similar a lore Druid is to nerubians.
Good to know.

Lore Druids that we’ll never get to play as, so you might as well use their abilities for a more appropriate class.

[Ielenia]

Pot meet kettle.

You keep dodging the question: why is it so egregious that one singular race out of all the available races for a given class be given something unique?

And why does it matter when it's such a minuscule non-issue compared to the fact that Blizzard created a whole new class to give to a singular race?

And Demon Hunters can't look like Illidan or do everything he can do. The DH class is still based on him. Same applies to the Lich King and Death Knights.

This isn't about doing "everything" a specific NPC can do. This is about representation, and both the classes you mentioned more than adequately represent those NPCs.

[Nightshade711]

That and the fact that they were beasts, and that Zalandari lived with dinosaurs, so Zalandari Druids would be dinomancers.

According to the previous lore, Dinomancers were closer to hunters than druids (given they focus on controlling beasts) The only slight thing they had to druids was that they could turn into a Direhorn temporarily.

Yet Blizzard used that one ability to link druids to Zandalari.
Just like Blizzard will likely use the several abilities that we see lore druids use to give Undead Druids Nerubian/insect inspired forms.

Beetle (crypt lord) inspired tank form.
Spider (classic nerubian) inspired feral form.
Nerubian vizier styled caster form. (Or Mantid-inspired humanoid if they NEED wings)
The list goes on.

Dinosaurs pretty much just claw and bite. We’re not missing anything. Meanwhile a spider form just doing bear abilities is missing quite a bit, as Elereth Renferal clearly demonstrates.

Elerethe is still a Druid.

I guarantee nobody would care if they gave Druid nerubian inspired forms. Just like nobody cared about how none of the bear abilities really made sense for a turtle. (Ironfur for a turtle LOL)

Really? It was a planned continent in vanilla.

Yeah as a single zone. Doesn’t mean they’d base an entire expansion around it.

Lore Druids that we’ll never get to play as, so you might as well use their abilities for a more appropriate class.

Just like you said we’d never play as a Demon Hunter…
Or how blizzard would never make us play as humanoid dragonkin like Drakonids. Or how blizzard would never make us play as a “slave race”.
The list goes on.

[Teriz]

You keep dodging the question: why is it so egregious that one singular race out of all the available races for a given class be given something unique?

I've already answered this. It isn't fair to the other races in the class.

And why does it matter when it's such a minuscule non-issue compared to the fact that Blizzard created a whole new class to give to a singular race?

Because that's a new class. It's existence doesn't effect your current race class. For example, the inclusion of Evokers doesn't effect a NE Druid. Meanwhile, Forsaken getting a bonus, exclusive Druid form on top of their standard forms would effect an NE Druid a great deal.

This isn't about doing "everything" a specific NPC can do. This is about representation, and both the classes you mentioned more than adequately represent those NPCs.

Just like Dracthyr Evokers more than adequately represent the Draconic heroes of Warcraft.

[Triceron]

Then let's not compound multiple mistakes with another one.

How would Werebear customizations with updated animations be a mistake? All they need to do is adapt the same level of care and quality to a Crypt Lord's animations. Hell, if we get an Azjol expansion, we could probably expect a new model and updated skeleton, meaning they can hit two birds with one stone and have the NPC models and animations fit as a Guardian form. Much like how the new Arrakoa skeleton and animations were designed to allow Zandalari Boomkin Pterodactyl skin to work.

Azjol Nerub expansion could really solve a lot of these issues.

[Teriz]

According to the previous lore, Dinomancers were closer to hunters than druids (given they focus on controlling beasts) The only slight thing they had to druids was that they could turn into a Direhorn temporarily.
Yet Blizzard used that one ability to link druids to Zandalari.
Just like Blizzard will likely use the several abilities that we see lore druids use to give Undead Druids Nerubian/insect inspired forms.

Link to this Dinomancer Druid with several abilities that Blizzard didn't translate over to Zalandari Druids please.

I find it odd that you can't simply see that it makes perfect

Beetle (crypt lord) inspired tank form.
Spider (classic nerubian) inspired feral form.
Nerubian vizier styled caster form. (Or Mantid-inspired humanoid if they NEED wings)
The list goes on.

That sounds absolutely terrible. The expectation will be to be able to actually perform Spider abilities, or abilities from the Crypt Lord. Imagine the complete disappointment when people find out that you're only doing standard Bear and Cat abilities. It would be like a mod done by an amateur instead of something actually added by the dev team.

The better option is to create a completely new class with unique and appropriate abilities.

Elerethe is still a Druid.

A Druid we can NEVER play as, so make a class that can properly house her abilities.

I guarantee nobody would care if they gave Druid nerubian inspired forms. Just like nobody cared about how none of the bear abilities really made sense for a turtle. (Ironfur for a turtle LOL)

There's a pretty vast difference between a Spider doing feral cat attacks and a Turtle model with the same skeleton as a Bear doing bear druid abilities.

Yeah as a single zone. Doesn’t mean they’d base an entire expansion around it.

Yeah, you couldn't be more wrong. However, this isn't a Tinker thread.

Just like you said we’d never play as a Demon Hunter…

Just like you said there’s no Evoker 3rd spec a few weeks ago?

Or how blizzard would never make us play as humanoid dragonkin like Drakonids.

I said Drakonoids, not humanoid dragons. Btw, you were wrong about that too.

Or how blizzard would never make us play as a “slave race”.
The list goes on.

Which the Dracthyr aren’t.

Does this mean you’re done attempting to compare Elereth’s abilities to playable Druids?



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How would Werebear customizations with updated animations be a mistake?

You said that the Werebear's model doesn't fit Druid Bear attacks.

In other words, a mistake that doesn't need to be repeated.

Azjol Nerub expansion could really solve a lot of these issues.

Yes, by giving us a Nerubian class with appropriate abilities.

[Nightshade711]

Link to this Dinomancer Druid with several abilities that Blizzard didn't translate over to Zalandari Druids please.

Given that a simple google search says that Dinomancers specialize in CONTROLLING dinosaurs….
And that they only have one ability to turn into a direhorn before BfA…

That sounds absolutely terrible. The expectation will be to be able to actually perform Spider abilities, or abilities from the Crypt Lord. Imagine the complete disappointment when people find out that you're only doing standard Bear and Cat abilities. It would be like a mod done by an amateur instead of something actually added by the dev team.

That MIGHT be the case if there was ever a demand for a playable Nerubian class.

But there’s not. Just like there’s no demand for “dinosaur abilities” for a Zandalari Druid.

A Druid we can NEVER play as, so make a class that can properly house her abilities.

“Make a new class to house a lore Druids abilities”
Lol.

By your logic Blizzard should’ve created a whole new class for Druids of the Flame instead of just giving druids a flame cat form.

There's a pretty vast difference between a Spider doing feral cat attacks and a Turtle model with the same skeleton as a Bear doing bear druid abilities.

Skeletons don’t even matter for druids. Didn’t matter for Werebear, Saberon, or Arakkoa forms.

Yeah, you couldn't be more wrong. However, this isn't a Tinker thread.

I don’t see them making 3-5 zones around Undermine.
I won’t be surprised if Undermine just ends up being a dungeon just like Azjol-nerub was.

[Ielenia]

I've already answered this. It isn't fair to the other races in the class.

Was it unfair when Blizzard unveiled that Zandalari druids turn into dinosaurs instead of the usual bears and cats that all the other druids at the time (night elf, worgen, tauren and troll) had?

No, it wasn't. Just like it wouldn't be unfair at all if forsaken druids get to turn into nerubians as their shapeshifted forms for Guardian and Feral.

Because that's a new class.

Which is a bajillion levels worse in terms of exclusivity. That's like you being jealous because your younger brother got a limited edition Hotwheels toy, when you got a brand new actual car.

It's existence doesn't effect your current race class.

Neither would forsaken druids turning into nerubians affect the class for the other races. Just like Zandalari druids turning into dinosaurs did not affect the rest of the races that could be druids.

Forsaken getting a bonus, exclusive Druid form on top of their standard forms would effect an NE Druid a great deal.

How would it affect non-forsaken druids? Please explain in a way that wouldn't be also equally applied to how Zandalari druids can turn into dinosaurs but NE druids are restricted to cats and bears.

Just like Dracthyr Evokers more than adequately represent the Draconic heroes of Warcraft.

Except not really? Their bodies don't "adequately" represent dragons, and their visage forms also don't adequately represent dragons. For example: unlike Kalecgos, the dracthyr cannot have a human visage. Unlike many female dragons with a blood elf visage, the female dracthyr cannot take on a BE visage. The dracthyr cannot take on a night elf visage, etc, etc.

[Teriz]

Given that a simple google search says that Dinomancers specialize in CONTROLLING dinosaurs….
And that they only have one ability to turn into a direhorn before BfA…

No examples then? Okay.

That MIGHT be the case if there was ever a demand for a playable Nerubian class.

If there’s demand for a nerubian expansion, there will be demand for a Nerubian class.

“Make a new class to house a lore Druids abilities”
Lol.

Please explain how Blizzard will incorporate Elereth or Crypt Lord abilities into the Druid class.

A nerubian class can house both easily.

By your logic Blizzard should’ve created a whole new class for Druids of the Flame instead of just giving druids a flame cat form.

Uh no, because there’s not enough material to build a class around Druids of the flame.

Skeletons don’t even matter for druids. Didn’t matter for Werebear, Saberon, or Arakkoa forms.

Really? According to @Triceron none of those fit Druid abilities.

I don’t see them making 3-5 zones around Undermine.
I won’t be surprised if Undermine just ends up being a dungeon just like Azjol-nerub was.

Uh, just base the zones on sections of a city:

Seaside/Harbor, Downtown, the slums/the mines, the tinker union/industrial district, uptown, the sewers, etc.

[Triceron]

Really? According to @Triceron none of those fit Druid abilities.

Don't lump me into that nonsense lol.

Druids work with any animations. Why would skeletons matter?

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You said that the Werebear's model doesn't fit Druid Bear attacks.

In other words, a mistake that doesn't need to be repeated.

Nope, not what I said at all. Bring up a quote and I'll clarify if you need.

Why would I be arguing against werebear animations? The non-bear animations are the whole point of why I think Crypt Lords could work.

Guardian Druid attacks with whatever model they happen to be using at the time, and it's not always a Bear animation. Werebears use Werebear attsck animations, Human with Staff uses Staff melee animations, thus a Crypt Lord would use Crypt Lord animations, not bear attacks. You don't see Humans and Werebears on all 4's doing swipes with their arms.

It would be silly to adapt Bear animations to a Crypt Lord when its own anims are perfectly usable.

[Nightshade711]

No examples then? Okay.

Sorry it’s so hard to google “Dinomancer” and read the first result.

If there’s demand for a nerubian expansion, there will be demand for a Nerubian class.

There already was demand for a Nerubian expansion, you even linked the fan concept.

I’ve never seen anyone asking for a Nerubian class except you.
At most I’ve seen people talk about a race. (But more particularly for Mantid)

Please explain how Blizzard will incorporate Elereth or Crypt Lord abilities into the Druid class.

We’ve all explained this before.
You just can’t see past “oh bear or cat skeleton” despite that never being an issue before.

If class skins are ever made it’ll be an easy thing to do. Call it “Druid of the nightmare” that specializes in turning into insects and replaces spell visuals.

Given Ion mentioned cosmetic glyphs in his last interview it wouldn’t surprise me if they did something like that next expansion instead of a new class or race.

Really? According to @Triceron none of those fit Druid abilities.

Wrong.

Uh, just base the zones on sections of a city:

Seaside/Harbor, Downtown, the slums/the mines, the tinker union/industrial district, uptown, the sewers, etc.

Those are going to be some REALLY small zones then.
I don’t see how any of that could have any form of variety to encompass even one dragonflight sized zone.

[Teriz]

Was it unfair when Blizzard unveiled that Zandalari druids turn into dinosaurs instead of the usual bears and cats that all the other druids at the time (night elf, worgen, tauren and troll) had?

No, it wasn't. Just like it wouldn't be unfair at all if forsaken druids get to turn into nerubians as their shapeshifted forms for Guardian and Feral.

We're not talking about their base Bear and Cat form. We're talking about Forsaken getting an additional customizable Druid skin on TOP of their Bear and Cat forms.

Which is a bajillion levels worse in terms of exclusivity. That's like you being jealous because your younger brother got a limited edition Hotwheels toy, when you got a brand new actual car.

Well no, because you can simply roll or not play the new class. If you're a Druid, a new class doesn't effect you.

Neither would forsaken druids turning into nerubians affect the class for the other races. Just like Zandalari druids turning into dinosaurs did not affect the rest of the races that could be druids.

Sure it would. Why should Forsaken get an additional Nerubian skin on top of their standard Bear and Cat forms?

Except not really? Their bodies don't "adequately" represent dragons, and their visage forms also don't adequately represent dragons.

Both opinions.

For example: unlike Kalecgos, the dracthyr cannot have a human visage.

Actually since Kalecgos has elf ears, it's rather easy for Dracthyr to emulate Kalecgos' visage form.

In any case, you're simply talking about gameplay restrictions.

[Nightshade711]

We're not talking about their base Bear and Cat form. We're talking about Forsaken getting an additional customizable Druid skin on TOP of their Bear and Cat forms.

Sure it would. Why should Forsaken get an additional Nerubian skin on top of their standard Bear and Cat forms?

Nobody has ever said Undead Druids would get separate Nerubian forms ON TOP of their bear/cat forms?

We’re saying they’d get Nerubian inspired forms AS their Guardian/Feral/Balance/Travel forms.
(Or that all druids as a whole would get them as glyphs.)

[Ielenia]

We're not talking about their base Bear and Cat form. We're talking about Forsaken getting an additional customizable Druid skin on TOP of their Bear and Cat forms.

So would it be okay to you if nerubians were the forsaken druid's base Guardian, Feral and Balance forms, then?

Well no, because you can simply roll or not play the new class. If you're a Druid, a new class doesn't effect you.

By that logic, all you'd have to do is race-change to forsaken to use those customizations. Simple as that. It's even better nowadays since we have cross-faction guilds so even if you have to faction-change to get to forsaken, you'll still remain in the same guild.

Sure it would. Why should Forsaken get an additional Nerubian skin on top of their standard Bear and Cat forms?

Why shouldn't they? How would it affect the other druid races? You keep saying this is wrong, that the other races would be negatively affected, but you never go into any kind of specifics as to how.

Both opinions.

As much an opinion as your claim that the dracthyr adequately represents dragons. No more, no less.

Actually since Kalecgos has elf ears, it's rather easy for Dracthyr to emulate Kalecgos' visage form.

Except... they can't. All male dracthyr's visages use the blood/high elf male model, not the human one. So a male dracthyr cannot make himself "be like" Kalecgos or Wrathion. Similarly, the female dracthyr's visages use the human female model. So a female dracthyr cannot "be like" Alextrasza or Ysera or Chromie.

In any case, you're simply talking about gameplay restrictions.

Actually, no. It's a lore thing:

[Teriz]

Sorry it’s so hard to google “Dinomancer” and read the first result.

You're talking about the Trolls who pretty much have druid abilities? One of their abilities is Regrowth.....

There already was demand for a Nerubian expansion, you even linked the fan concept.

I’ve never seen anyone asking for a Nerubian class except you.
At most I’ve seen people talk about a race. (But more particularly for Mantid)

Yeah, because again no one knew a path to a Nerubian class until now.

We’ve all explained this before.
You just can’t see past “oh bear or cat skeleton” despite that never being an issue before.

If class skins are ever made it’ll be an easy thing to do. Call it “Druid of the nightmare” that specializes in turning into insects and replaces spell visuals.

Class skins aren't happening. It would require far too many art assets.

Those are going to be some REALLY small zones then.
I don’t see how any of that could have any form of variety to encompass even one dragonflight sized zone.

You don't see how a Downtown area with tall buildings would contrast with a Nature reserve/park zone full of animals both natural and mutated contrasting still with dark, dank slums full of sewers and tunnels? And yeah, those zones can be huge.

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Nobody has ever said Undead Druids would get separate Nerubian forms ON TOP of their bear/cat forms?

We’re saying they’d get Nerubian inspired forms AS their Guardian/Feral/Balance/Travel forms.
(Or that all druids as a whole would get them as glyphs.)

Oh, well then this was all pointless then, because there's zero chance Blizzard would give Forsaken Nerubian forms. They'll get something like this;

[Nightshade711]

You're talking about the Trolls who pretty much have druid abilities? One of their abilities is Regrowth.....

Yeah because you’re looking at the Dinomancers from BfA, where they reworked them into druids.

Yeah, because again no one knew a path to a Nerubian class until now.

All hail Prophet Teriz, the first person to say “hm what if this WC3 hero became a class” lol.

Class skins aren't happening. It would require far too many art assets.

You don’t know that.
Blizzard knows it’s something the community wants so they could have been working on it. (Especially since they’ve been asked about cosmetic spell visuals a LOT this expansion)

You don't see how a Downtown area with tall buildings would contrast with a Nature reserve/park zone full of animals both natural and mutated contrasting still with dark, dank slums full of sewers and tunnels? And yeah, those zones can be huge.

Good luck stretching all of this out into even a single dragonflight sized zone. Even Suramar could barely do it and it’s whole thing was being a zone sized city that wasn’t a main hub.

[Teriz]

So would it be okay to you if nerubians were the forsaken druid's base Guardian, Feral and Balance forms, then?

No, because it wouldn't make sense. However, that wouldn't upset the apple cart as badly as them getting additional forms over other druids.

With that said, it appears that what is being proposed is nonsense anyway, since Forsaken wouldn't get Nerubian forms, they'd tainted animal forms instead.

[Ielenia]

No, because it wouldn't make sense.

Why wouldn't it make sense? Crypt lords and nerubians have undead versions and would fit the forsaken more than a bear or cat.

since Forsaken wouldn't get Nerubian forms,

You don't know that. That's like saying Zandalari trolls wouldn't get dinosaur forms, they'd get bears and cats like the other druids.

[Teriz]

Yeah because you’re looking at the Dinomancers from BfA, where they reworked them into druids.

The other Dinomancer from before MoP had a healing beam for a boss, and a physical damage boost in dino-form which could easily be attributed to Cat form's physical damage buff.

Nothing major.

You don’t know that.

So you don't think reskinning several abilities in a class for multiple races wouldn't require a ton of additional (unnecessary) work every patch and every expansion for pretty low payoff?

Good luck stretching all of this out into even a single dragonflight sized zone. Even Suramar could barely do it and it’s whole thing was being a zone sized city that wasn’t a main hub.

Designing a Goblin city in that manner is easier to do than an Elven city.

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Why wouldn't it make sense? Crypt lords and nerubians have undead versions and would fit the forsaken more than a bear or cat.

Because Nerubians aren't beasts, and Crypt Lords are hero characters with unique abilities. It'd be like giving Druids a dragon form that can't fly, use its tail, use aspect magic, or shoot fire from its mouth.

You don't know that. That's like saying Zandalari trolls wouldn't get dinosaur forms, they'd get bears and cats like the other druids.

Zalandari are in constant contact with dinosaurs. Forsaken are not in constant contact with Nerubians. Also dinosaurs are beasts, nerubians are not, they're sentient and highly intelligent like the mortal races. Again, it'd be like a Druid turning into a Dragon, Mantid, or a Mogu. Doesn't make sense.

[Nightshade711]

The other Dinomancer from before MoP had a healing beam for a boss, and a physical damage boost in dino-form which could easily be attributed to Cat form's physical damage buff.

Nothing major.

Also missing the wide variety of other Dinomancers that don’t transform but instead use their magic to control Dinosaurs. Just like Hunters.

So you don't think reskinning several abilities in a class for multiple races wouldn't require a ton of additional (unnecessary) work every patch and every expansion for pretty low payoff?

How would it be low payoff?

Doesn’t seem to be that much work for warlock Green Fire and it’s practically the same thing.

Arguably it’s more work for them to make a new class with 2-3 specs (especially given the new talent trees) and to then balance each and every talent and ability for the class.

Whereas with class skins the artists just throw together some new visuals if there’s a new spell.
Except this time new visuals they’re making actually stay after the expansion… unlike most artifact traits, Azerite traits/essences, covenant abilities… etc etc etc.

Designing a Goblin city in that manner is easier to do than an Elven city.

If you say so.
I just don’t see them making an entire continent the size of the Dragon Isles as an entire city. Which is why I said it’d be a single zone at most.

Because Nerubians aren't beasts, and Crypt Lords are hero characters with unique abilities. It'd be like giving Druids a dragon form that can't fly, use its tail, use aspect magic, or shoot fire from its mouth.

Insects are beasts and there are several times in lore where Druids turn into insects. (Even with a raid boss doing so using a Nerubian skeleton/model)
Even playable druids now can have an insect flight form.

Forsaken would just have Nerubian inspired insect forms and blizzard could make up whatever lore they want to justify.
“Oh hey we’re druids focusing more on the ‘death’ side of the cycle of life and death.” Boom, Undead Druids.

“But where there is death, there is also life! An inescapable cycle, as sure as the sea is vast! No creature can thwart it for long.”