[Megathread] The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited

[Witchblade77]

Agreed. As janky as ESO's combat is, the entry level of skill is super low. Even into the lower end of the end game content (Normal Raids) it is very accessible.

yep. and I love it about it. I know there is a large subset of gamers who love their challenge. me, I'm not one of them. right now, i'm doing yet another solo quest in path of fire and as I die. and die. and die. and die... because I don't see how its possible not to pull multiple mobs at once since they travel in groups and ho I don't even see any sort of telegraphing from veteran mobs before they rush me and knock me down, only after and how I cannot interrupt at will.. and the only reason I'm still doing this TBH, well 3 reasons. 1 my SO finds that he likes the game so its something we can do together (he's just not max level yet and I want mounts too much to wait), 2... I already bought the expac, so sunk cost falacy, and 3... if I give up now, I'll have to restart the whole mission and it was annoying enough to get to the point where i'm at already.

I'll take ESO's ability of breathing through the solo story even if I can pretty much light attack my way through it - over this frustration of GW2? any day

[Katchii]

Aye - one of the major draws of ESO - and they certainly have built more and more /into/ that as the years have gone on- is the "ease of solo play" to get through the vast majority of the game.

Sure, we could still have the 'ease of solo play' if overland wasn't AS undertuned as it is. "Overland" content could certainly be taken up a few levels of difficulty from "face smash easy after a couple dozen levels" to "regular easy", but I also see why that probably won't ever happen.

Of all the game-wide systems to use an overhaul or upgrade - overland mechanics are, I'm sure, at the bottom of that list. Because yea - for new players and returning players - it IS nice to be able to just play the game and figure it out, at whatever speed you want to figure it out, without meeting a wall of 'out-leveled' or 'too difficult' content while questing. To be able to play with all the classes, builds, whatever a new player might want to mess with - without worrying that the night's questing will become too difficult to impossible. To be able to start as a new character with literally ANY zone in the game, and level through the entire game in ANY zone order you want to do - that's a big plus, too.

As someone who played at launch and quit very quickly after because of issues arising from difficulty, I can say that it really is nice that Overland content is as easy as it is.

The issues at launch, for me and for others, were based around how some builds were completely non viable because they couldn't sustain themselves in even simple overland fights, not to mention story quest boss fights.

I played a sneaky shooty stabby Nightblade, and had very little sustain, except in fights with multiple enemies because my heals only came from enemy deaths. So fights with bosses, and no adds, I got obliterated. It was very disheartening.

Couple this with the fact that the game didn't really help you at all, and instead actively encouraged you to build your character your way...it was very frustrating for people like me who JUST wanted to play and have fun without having to spend hours crafting the perfect character with the perfect stats and abilities to be able to simply survive.

[Koriani]

As someone who played at launch and quit very quickly after because of issues arising from difficulty, I can say that it really is nice that Overland content is as easy as it is.

The issues at launch, for me and for others, were based around how some builds were completely non viable because they couldn't sustain themselves in even simple overland fights, not to mention story quest boss fights.

I played a sneaky shooty stabby Nightblade, and had very little sustain, except in fights with multiple enemies because my heals only came from enemy deaths. So fights with bosses, and no adds, I got obliterated. It was very disheartening.

Couple this with the fact that the game didn't really help you at all, and instead actively encouraged you to build your character your way...it was very frustrating for people like me who JUST wanted to play and have fun without having to spend hours crafting the perfect character with the perfect stats and abilities to be able to simply survive.

I played briefly at release too; but at the time it wasn't different 'enough' from WoW for me to pay for another sub (and I was still quite enjoying WoW) so I didn't join up then. I really jumped back in (myself) years later, after they overhauled the payment plan and how overland leveling worked (when they made it 'One Tameriel'). I don't remember what my experience was at launch outside of that. (no memory of how hard or easy leveling was, I think I was there for maybe one month)

And yea - for sure - you won't have that issue with NB anymore . I started with NB then myself and have only played that class/character ever since. I certainly didn't build towards anything at all specific (other than wanting to get every weapon skill built up - lol) and had no issues leveling through the game and even soloing mid to lower-level (standard) dungeons (if slowly lol) before hitting max level+ on my NB.

I know there are more 'hard core' players who do want even a solo-questing experience that is more 'at level' - and I get that. Even I, someone who enjoys 'god mode' in single player games, can get 'bored' mowing through overland mobs now with my NB at max level +800points (Or I did a year or so ago when I was last subbed and playing) -- but I'll take that overpowered feeling every day of the week over a game where I have to pick between forced-group content to do anything or dailies!

It SEEMS like ESO "gets that" about their game, knows that about their game, and likes that about their game - and aren't trying to make every aspect of their game 'fit for everyone's tastes.' It isn't a game for everyone - for that reason and others as well - and that's fine. No game is. But for some of us - its 'almost exactly' what we're wanting in that 'questing' experience.

[Katchii]

I played briefly at release too; but at the time it wasn't different 'enough' from WoW for me to pay for another sub (and I was still quite enjoying WoW) so I didn't join up then. I really jumped back in (myself) years later, after they overhauled the payment plan and how overland leveling worked (when they made it 'One Tameriel'). I don't remember what my experience was at launch outside of that. (no memory of how hard or easy leveling was, I think I was there for maybe one month)

And yea - for sure - you won't have that issue with NB anymore . I started with NB then myself and have only played that class/character ever since. I certainly didn't build towards anything at all specific (other than wanting to get every weapon skill built up - lol) and had no issues leveling through the game and even soloing mid to lower-level (standard) dungeons (if slowly lol) before hitting max level+ on my NB.

I know there are more 'hard core' players who do want even a solo-questing experience that is more 'at level' - and I get that. Even I, someone who enjoys 'god mode' in single player games, can get 'bored' mowing through overland mobs now with my NB at max level +800points (Or I did a year or so ago when I was last subbed and playing) -- but I'll take that overpowered feeling every day of the week over a game where I have to pick between forced-group content to do anything or dailies!

It SEEMS like ESO "gets that" about their game, knows that about their game, and likes that about their game - and aren't trying to make every aspect of their game 'fit for everyone's tastes.' It isn't a game for everyone - for that reason and others as well - and that's fine. No game is. But for some of us - its 'almost exactly' what we're wanting in that 'questing' experience.

I don't mind forced group content, when it's designed to BE group content. Though I do understand the frustration when you're personal questing experience has to be put on hold for however long it takes to put a group together. If you're referring to FFXIV here, like I said I get it, but with a duty finder and people able to find a group for it in anywhere from less than 5 to maybe 20 minutes (minus two very specific duties) I honestly never understood why it was so game breaking. Frustrating, yes, game breaking, no.

The issue with ESO at the time was even the solo experience required groups for some people because their builds were simply not viable which is beyond frustrating, because the amount of time spent getting to that point isn't inconsequential, and the idea that you have to completely rebuild your character, unlock new skills or change your game play when up to that point you were encouraged to build and play your character however you wanted......like I said, I quit at that point.

[Koriani]

I don't mind forced group content, when it's designed to BE group content. Though I do understand the frustration when you're personal questing experience has to be put on hold for however long it takes to put a group together. If you're referring to FFXIV here, like I said I get it, but with a duty finder and people able to find a group for it in anywhere from less than 5 to maybe 20 minutes (minus two very specific duties) I honestly never understood why it was so game breaking. Frustrating, yes, game breaking, no.

The issue with ESO at the time was even the solo experience required groups for some people because their builds were simply not viable which is beyond frustrating, because the amount of time spent getting to that point isn't inconsequential, and the idea that you have to completely rebuild your character, unlock new skills or change your game play when up to that point you were encouraged to build and play your character however you wanted......like I said, I quit at that point.

For myself - I just hate pugging. I speak to no specific MMO or game here - I just hate it. I spend 40+ hours a week dealing with patients and talking almost non-stop for 8 hours a day so, for me, I am not in the mood to 'talk more' to well anyone - but especially strangers. And yea, while I know you can (at least in some games/some group content) spend the whole run never typing/speaking - it also isn't 'fun' for me to run a dungeon that way. I just skip them (the dungeon) if the game offers no other avenue of completion and I don't have guildmates around.

As you are right - I too would quit a game I couldn't complete solo content on - solo. I too would be hella pissed and yea, I wouldn't bother to rebuild - if I had built to that point 'just fine' playing solo and then hit a quest or mulitiple quest-tasks that now required me to group because XYZ gear or skill or class was borked for it. Would not matter to me how easy that group was to find, or if it was full of friends, I'd take immediate issue with the game design and it would leave a bad taste.

And unfortunately, that above point and your final paragraph also speak to one of the major reasons/causes of concern (at least posted about on forums) people are giving in the last couple of years for bailing on the game. The devs have overhauled several major systems in the last couple of expansions (PVP skills, Champion Points, Dots/HoTs/Spell power gear) and it is this very "moving the goalpost" in build/skills/gear after each system change that lots of 'long time players' post up about as its pushed them to finally give it up and leave. Being sick of the 'constantly changing builds' everyone in end-game (where builds matters) raiding and pvp have to rebuild and rebuild again - because that time invested IS significant. And now that its happened with several 'major system overhauls' expansions in a row (overhauled in ways that don't make sense to many and seem to benefit, help, or have been asked for by no one); I've seen a lot more complaints and push back on the forums than I ever have in the years before with prior changes. (Yea still read the forums to stay up with what's going on in the game even when I don't play).

It tells me something shifted somewhere - whether this shift means anything 'real' to the game though has yet to be determined. But it isn't just 'grr we don't like change' for change-sake.

I'd get more specific into the changes but honestly as I don't actively play, just read forums a few times a month, and these big system overhauls are at least 1-3 years old now (unless there's been another another one lol) - I don't remember all the details anymore .

[Aliven]

having been playing GW2 again for the last week or so.... as much as ESO combat sucks, I prefer it to GW2 for one simple reason. BECAUSE its so forgiving in overland. I'm doing the story and I'm literally struggling. I had to ask for help to do an early path of fire quest, because I couldn't manage to solo it. sure I wasn't optimized, but I was playing what is supposed to be an easy class (beastmaster ranger) and I had combination of rare and exotic gear. and I was getting my butt kicked... by a story quest that is supposed to be done solo.

and I know for a lot of people - this very thing is a plus. but not for me. because and herein lies an irony. even though there is no weaving in GW2, even though the combat is a lot more cooldown based.. the difference between what I could do and what people who ended up helping me could do? STILL felt about as vast as the difference between what I can do in ESO vs what end game gamers can do in ESO. except in ESO I'm not punished in solo content. in GW2 - I am.

so yeah, as janky as ESO combat is and it really is janky despite long time players liking it for its very jankiness? I like that its forgiving enough that even if you are still figuring things out, you can still make your way through solo content without much frustration and beating your head against the quest over and over.

but that's just my opinion /shrug

P.S. speaking of mount system. does it suck that it takes 6 goddamn months to level your mount? yes. yes it does. but I will STILL take that over realizing that I will likely never be able to earn a flying mount in GW2 due to gold requirement in addition to all the collections and its own time gate to earn it.

GW2 can be really difficult. Pain in the ass difficult sadly.

Basically you need to have openworld/story/solo build to be really comfortable in taking it all. Some classes have better than other. I dont play ranger so dont know how to build them properly for that.

[Tyris Flare]

And it is pretty interesting because I thought the difficulty compared to ESO would keep me interested, but it still got boring pretty fast. I didn't even make it through Path of Fire or HoT despite enjoying what I was doing. Probably a "me" problem.

I'm just like massively far behind on ESO and while I enjoy the voiced questing and stuff, most of it is still pretty forgettable.

What's the most interesting thing of what I haven't done?
-Morrowwind
-Skyrim thing
-Blackreach
-Summerset

[ryanmahaffe]

I was not under the impression gw2 story content was hard lol, it just isn't braindead easy either.

I think the new chapter could be interesting, would be nice if they break the formula in some way.

[Witchblade77]

And it is pretty interesting because I thought the difficulty compared to ESO would keep me interested, but it still got boring pretty fast. I didn't even make it through Path of Fire or HoT despite enjoying what I was doing. Probably a "me" problem.

I'm just like massively far behind on ESO and while I enjoy the voiced questing and stuff, most of it is still pretty forgettable.

What's the most interesting thing of what I haven't done?
-Morrowwind
-Skyrim thing
-Blackreach
-Summerset

morrowind and summerset. blackreach IMO is the weakest. Skyrim is ok. Vvardenfel and summerset are also connected and clockwork city is a sort of in between story for those.


with GW2, the problem is, unless you build just right and get the gear in stats that are just right? you are getting nowhere fast. it will knock you the heck down over and over. in ESO expansion content is meant for everyone. in GW2, expansion content seems to be meant for end game players and/or groups. and the instanced quests are also so... darn... long. they just keep going. and going. and going. no splitting it into smaller, manageable chunks, and if you don't finish the instance and leave, you have to start over (same applies to multi part world events in higher level zones). outside of that if you don't like combat for the sake of it, events that frame the combat are repetitive with IMO somewhat tenuous connection to the world and its narrative. its there. but it feels disconnected to me.

for all its issues, I can hop into ESO for 20 minutes and feel like I got somewhere. in GW2 - that 20 minutes is enough for maybe one or two popup repetitive events (maybe a quick battleground match if you are into pvp, which I'm not), but that's about it. IMO its not even close to casual friendly, especially at max level.

[korijenkins]

morrowind and summerset. blackreach IMO is the weakest. Skyrim is ok. Vvardenfel and summerset are also connected and clockwork city is a sort of in between story for those.


with GW2, the problem is, unless you build just right and get the gear in stats that are just right? you are getting nowhere fast. it will knock you the heck down over and over. in ESO expansion content is meant for everyone. in GW2, expansion content seems to be meant for end game players and/or groups. and the instanced quests are also so... darn... long. they just keep going. and going. and going. no splitting it into smaller, manageable chunks, and if you don't finish the instance and leave, you have to start over (same applies to multi part world events in higher level zones). outside of that if you don't like combat for the sake of it, events that frame the combat are repetitive with IMO somewhat tenuous connection to the world and its narrative. its there. but it feels disconnected to me.

for all its issues, I can hop into ESO for 20 minutes and feel like I got somewhere. in GW2 - that 20 minutes is enough for maybe one or two popup repetitive events (maybe a quick battleground match if you are into pvp, which I'm not), but that's about it. IMO its not even close to casual friendly, especially at max level.

GW2 battlegrounds are extremely fast. You could possibly do 4 of them in 20 minutes. Problem is the PvP has been so horiffically unbalanced that typically only 1 or 2 classes is legitimately viable and you're gimping yourself to play others.

[Edge-]

For me, the difference is that GW2 sorta expects you to learn the game by the time you hit level 80 and are doing expansion content. Like, understand game/combat mechanics, class mechanics, gear stats and what you need for your build etc. GW2's combat is a bit "different" than either tab target or action combat games (no matter if you play tab target or the psuedo-action camera) too, which takes some time to get used to. I'm not saying "YOU'RE BAD" if it doesn't click or anything, sometimes it just doesn't click. But you can both achieve just as much in 20M in GW2 as in ESO (there are plenty of short-term activities you can do solo or if there are a few folks around), and GW2 remains very casual friendly with most of its content if/when the combat "clicks". It took me a while to get the hang of it, I remember getting absolutely destroyed when I played the game in early alpha/beta and even around launch because things weren't clicking.

ESO by contrast is...and I'm not saying this as a total negative because I enjoy this, a casual sleepfest where it seems nearly impossible to struggle, at least in the overworld. Like, between being broken OP while leveling because of how scaling works to the fact that most enemies/encounters are so forgiving even with bad gear that it's straight up difficult to die. Most bosses aren't even noticable with their low HP and damage, and the only things that have seemed remotely threatening are world bosses.

And even those aren't really much of a risk if you nab a companion from Blackwood, they don't even really need to be leveled/geared.

I'm running around with only a few set piece bonuses that aren't even ideal for my character and a lot of pretty awful gear overall (nothing is really "for" my class, but a hodge podge) and mostly using a resto staff on my stamina warden just to level the weapon. Even with that garbage gear and a "meh" build (following a guide but I'm like...10% of the way towards having even the overworld setup complete, mostly gear but also some skills etc.) rocking a resto staff I'm just walking around like a bloody god. Again, I'm not necessarily complaining by any measure - I'm just here to complete zones (I like checklist RPG's, which ESO very much is!) and enjoy some story/exploring. There's always vets and trails and shit if/when I want to put on my big-boy pants and play some challenging content.

[Witchblade77]

GW2 battlegrounds are extremely fast. You could possibly do 4 of them in 20 minutes. Problem is the PvP has been so horiffically unbalanced that typically only 1 or 2 classes is legitimately viable and you're gimping yourself to play others.

not into pvp so I'm only going by second hand experience here, they do seem to be pretty fast.


that said, Edge... I disagree that you can get somewhere in 20 minutes in GW2, but I guess I should also specify what that somewhere is. in ESO I can make progress on the story in that much time. in GW2 - I can not. in ESO I can run a quick dungeon, or a world boss. in GW2 - unless I just happen to zone in on a tail end of a boss or a zone wide takeover? I might get rewards for a stage but not much else.

and yes ESO overworld is extremely forgiving and that's what I love about it. I can relax into the stories.

its not that GW2 combat doesn't click for me. its that when I bit the bullet and spent almost half of my gold stash to regear my ranger in all exotics instead of some exotics and slightly different distribution of stats and changed NOTHING else. literally same rotation, same pet, same reflexes. I was able to have significantly better time then before - still died and AoE's came way too fast to avoid reliable IMO, but... was able to finish the quest I was struggling with.

granted I already had one of the "meta" specs, but what I'm saying is that to me, that unforgiving nature of the game where you HAVE to be geared and specced just so or you are not even completing overland, forget instanced group content? is part of what makes it NOT casual friendly. length of activities is the other part. hell even a single holiday activity can easily take far more then 20 minutes... there is almost no bite sized content in GW2. there is so much more in ESO.

[Edge-]

that said, Edge... I disagree that you can get somewhere in 20 minutes in GW2, but I guess I should also specify what that somewhere is. in ESO I can make progress on the story in that much time. in GW2 - I can not. in ESO I can run a quick dungeon, or a world boss. in GW2 - unless I just happen to zone in on a tail end of a boss or a zone wide takeover? I might get rewards for a stage but not much else.

I'd say take this to the GW2 forum because...yeah, you absolutely can do a lot of that stuff in 20 minutes. GW2's long been praised for having a wealth of bite-sized content that you can do even in shorter play sessions.

and yes ESO overworld is extremely forgiving and that's what I love about it. I can relax into the stories.

Ye, sit back with the gamepad since no need to play seriously, put on something on second monitor, watch that while playing and pause it for the dialogue so you can enjoy the story.

granted I already had one of the "meta" specs, but what I'm saying is that to me, that unforgiving nature of the game where you HAVE to be geared and specced just so or you are not even completing overland, forget instanced group content?

Again, I'll say take it to the GW2 forum because...it's more of a struggle but it's very possible still.

[Witchblade77]

I'd say take this to the GW2 forum because...yeah, you absolutely can do a lot of that stuff in 20 minutes. GW2's long been praised for having a wealth of bite-sized content that you can do even in shorter play sessions.



Ye, sit back with the gamepad since no need to play seriously, put on something on second monitor, watch that while playing and pause it for the dialogue so you can enjoy the story.



Again, I'll say take it to the GW2 forum because...it's more of a struggle but it's very possible still.

we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm speaking from personal experience with both games and for me ESO fits my preferences FAR more. even with all the issues its combat has. /shrug.

[ro9ue]

If anything, more of my complaints for the combat system revolve around weapon switching and shorterm buffs. I find keeping a lot of those short term buffs up to be exhausting, especially with switching for various DoT/delayed damage abilities. I guess it makes it more dynamic and all, but most of the time I can't be bothered to weapon swap and keep buffs and debuffs up and whatnot.

Yea, its has its flaws. I'll be the first to smack them upside the head for their continued refusal to have an auction system outside of guild-membership. But its perks to me outweigh its cons - for the type of gaming I enjoy now (and have the time for.)

These are my other two major gripes.

Other than that though I can't really say enough good things about it. But I think if they put all of their effort really iterating on the combat so it feels smooth it would be the best MMO without equal. The auction house really they just need to copy pasta any other MMOs trading system - the guild stuff and random traders everywhere that makes you need to use 3rd party addons and website is bad.

[Jastall]

The thing that sucks about ESO's combat is it's such an important piece of what these games are and it overshadows all the great aspects of the game. All of their side dishes are the best I've had: crafting, lore and story, exploration and map objectives, treasures, side stuff no other game has like the justice system, etc. Except you then get a big slab of undercooked steak as your main course. I don't know if the developers would be willing to go back to square one on the combat, but right now it's like this poor amalgamation of a typical ES game and trying to be like WoW.

IMO, and this might be controversial, but things like you can't infinitely draw your bow because "hardcore" dps players wanted to make sure their heavy attacks always went off asap for max dps is asinine and hurts the overall experience of the game. You should be able to sneak through a delve and hold your bow as long as you want.

They should either just go all the way on the on-rails tab targeting style or say fuck it and have as true to an ES experience as possible. This straddled position they have the game in isn't working very well for a lot of people.

Tell me about it. I tried out the game twice and both times the combat was so godawful I stopped after a couple hours. Doesn't matter how good the rest is if the gameplay of your game sucks this bad, it somehow felt worse than level 1 unmodded Skyrim combat, and Skyrim combat is already piss poor as it is.

[Tyris Flare]

The other thing that's related to combat but also separate is how indistinct and bland the classes are, which sadly has been true since the start. I really hate the shared skill system.

Back to GW2, I enjoy that a greatsword is different for a ranger vs warrior. Totally different abilities. In Eso, every 2h chars plays virtually identically.

[Edge-]

One thing I pretty much universally adore: Instanced dungeon design.

Like, yeah enemy density and pacing can get a bit formulaic at times but like, holy crap they're great on normal mode. Not terribly long, especially if you have some geared dudes carrying, a lot of them have some pretty solid basic level mechanics, they're pretty big and can span a lot of areas and sub-areas, some have some puzzle solving and whatnot.

Just did Lair of Maarselok and holy crap man. Looks bloody great throughout, breezed through at a nice clip while being able to smell the roses a bit. Bosses were all very different and pretty intuitive/fun. Got a few achieves outta it for various conditions on bosses. You're inside dungeons and caverns then you're outside running along scenic cliffsides. I need to start a screenshot folder or something, because this game has a lot of really gorgeous scenery.

[Graeham]

Tell me about it. I tried out the game twice and both times the combat was so godawful I stopped after a couple hours. Doesn't matter how good the rest is if the gameplay of your game sucks this bad, it somehow felt worse than level 1 unmodded Skyrim combat, and Skyrim combat is already piss poor as it is.

It's definitely the weakest part of the game in my opinion. It's probably much deeper when it comes to high end content, though I haven't had the opportunity to dabble in that yet.

With that said, I tend to end up playing ESO when I become disillusioned with other MMO's. It just scratches an immersion/exploration itch that other MMO's don't.

[Edge-]

Yo, experiencing the story way outta order is kinda cool.

First encountered Eveli in Blackwood, the current version of her. Liked her a lot, she's into mysteries and likes shooting things with her bow.
Saw her in Wrothgar more recently, chronologically before Blackwood. Pretty much the same character, just a bit less confident in herself. Still a delight.
Now I'm Grahtwood and "meeting her" for the first time in a delve.

It's kinda interesting learning about a character in reverse chronological order. I hope she pops up in more zones, I can see why some folks would find her to be annoying but she's positively delightful. Make her a companion! Give her companion quests that span multiple zones!