Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

I would hope after WoD that the team would realize them touching time-travel as an expansion is a bad idea.

[Raetary]

Also - the Infinite symbol keeps appearing:

It keeps appearing because they used that symbology for the cycle.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Light v Void doesn't push players away. I'm not gonna say its the next thing but I don't think it pushes players away.

[Varodoc]

The Void has been set up as the main villain since 2016.

If anyone has a problem with that, they haven't liked WoW since 2016. Simple as that.

[Sondrelk]

I would hope after WoD that the team would realize them touching time-travel as an expansion is a bad idea.

It's a shame really, some of the best dungeons Blizzard has made are the ones with the Infinite Dragonflight.
The problem they had in WoD, and for that matter in this expansion when it concerns the Shadowlands, is that they overexplain stuff that is either inherently confusing, or better left unsaid.

If Blizzard never bothered to explain the time travel stuff in WoD then it would have been much easier to wrap your head around ironically.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I had this thought yesterday about the future of the story:
How exactly is Metzen's current standing with the people at Blizzard? His statements that he never knew anything were not exactly very believable. And on a corproate level his statements weren't exactly putting up much denial of the situation either. Those two bits have me worrying that his role as one of the last people with a heavy self insert in the form of Thrall and Malfurion might be an issue to the devs going forward. Thrall was clearly planned as one of focal characters of SL, along with Baine, Jaina and Tyrande. While we could argue that his story is done now that he has had his family issues sorted out for the 3rd time, I still have to wonxder if a bit of the hold up might also relate to him? Maybe they intended a bigger role for him, as he was seemingly coming back to the horde goign forward.

Edit: For example in other games: They scrubbed some extremely minute references of Jeff Caplan from OW after he left as well (and afaik he wasn't directly implicated either).

[Teriz]

The Void has been set up as the main villain since 2016.

If anyone has a problem with that, they haven't liked WoW since 2016. Simple as that.

There's a difference between setting something up as a force for evil, and personifying it into something you can defeat.

It's like turning the Dark Side of the Force in Star Wars into an entity that you can defeat instead of a cosmic force that maintains balance.

It's lame.

[Alanar]

I agree. I believe part of the reason people are lukewarm on Shadowlands is because it's so disconnected from Azeroth and in-game logic. I don't think that the community wants yet another expansion where we're off-world fighting literal gods and cosmic forces we really have no business fighting.

That was my point exactly.. from what I can see and read on multiple forumsis that players want a more grounded expansion. Things like how is gilneas doing and the worgen. Are the pirates still on a island.. maybe like you said some dragon stuff. Hell even kezan and its cartels could be introduced.

There is no connection to these cosmic elements for players and its fairly new lore. I mean I havent seen much threads or interest in general to visit a new world and especially afther SL its just not a very good idea when blizz is a big need to get connected to the players again.

That being said.. sure a void vs light patch could be part of it to prepare players... but outside of these cameos, I wouldnt say its a very good idea. This doesnt mean I want to see Tinker tho just saying

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The Void has been set up as the main villain since 2016.

If anyone has a problem with that, they haven't liked WoW since 2016. Simple as that.

The void was purely created to top power levels of the Legion.. another enemy afther the big enemy we knew off called the Legion. You know the main emeny and plot of wow since the beginning. The void had a few cameos in BC and it sucked.. even bfa void stuff sucked. If that was how to prepare us for the super big bad boys void lords then there is still much work to be done. Which is why void light expansion after sl is a bad idea.

Please try to set apart what you like and push your agenda and try to see it a bit more realistic.

[TheFirstOnes]

Why would anyone trust anduin with anything in general? Pre shadowlands he didn't do anything but cry and get magically disguised as a stable boy to visit common citizens he looked down upon while weirdly envying at the same time according to the poorly written novel and in game I don't think he has accomplished anything beyond being a powerful healer.

It never really felt right that he held any power in a leadership positon.

He literally carried the entire 4th war. Actually shut up with that lmao

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The Void has been set up as the main villain since 2016.

If anyone has a problem with that, they haven't liked WoW since 2016. Simple as that.

There is no "main evil" regarding the Cosmic Forces. Did you just ignore the whole point of Chronicles? Or? The VOID LORDS can be "evil", sure. But the Void in of itself isn't evil.

You're like Alleria's biggest fan. Even you should realize this.

[Alanar]

Light v Void doesn't push players away. I'm not gonna say its the next thing but I don't think it pushes players away.

I mean.. the void stuff we got so far, starting in bc and with bfa it just sucked big time.

Going for a full void light expansion isnt exactly the best idea right now. They need to reconnect to players.. that is with more grounded things imo.

[Postmasters]

He literally carried the entire 4th war. Actually shut up with that lmao

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There is no "main evil" regarding the Cosmic Forces. Did you just ignore the whole point of Chronicles? Or? The VOID LORDS can be "evil", sure. But the Void in of itself isn't evil.

You're like Alleria's biggest fan. Even you should realize this.

I don't think he did... slyvannas murdered her own troops while winning the battle for the undercity via plague and I don't recall anduin being present in any of the big battles in bfa.

[TheFirstOnes]

As basic concepts where magic comes from; yes.

The more recent concepts like the Void Lords that were only created because we've beaten the Old Gods and needed to up the ante in terms of power levels is not rooted in classic Warcraft. Hence the problem; We're upping the ante on power levels because of these cosmic expansions. I mean, in this expansion we're on the verge of defeating death. Upping the power levels on this scale is not good for the long running health of a MMO.

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Yeah, I can see that on the horizon as well. I could definitely see an expansion where we are invaded by Yrel's Lightbound army and Turlyon betraying Stormwind and joining her. That could be an interesting little twist supported by the fact that Anduin is corrupted by Shadow magic and that corruption could sow mistrust within the Alliance.

That concept is far more interesting than us going into some new realm where we're fighting "the Void" for an entire expansion.

Not sure many people "like" it, but that's the narrative. Idk why you think battling Light and Shadow is such a problem, considering we're literally in the Cosmic Realms of Death this expac, and are battling against a being whose existence goes against the balance between not just Life and Death, but the entire Cosmos as a whole.

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I don't think he did... slyvannas murdered her own troops while winning the battle for the undercity via plague and I don't recall anduin being present in any of the big battles in bfa.

Was a major part in getting the Kul'tirans to join the Alliance, led the charge against the Horde in Dazar'alor, aided in the battle against Azshara in 8.2 (Even if he himself wasn't at the Eternal Palace), teamed up with Wrathion and Magni in the aid against N'Zoth, and managed to bring both the Alliance, and Horde together in order to sign an armistice to end the War.

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Ngl, this was prolly one of the best moments in BFA. Just sucks the open world Alliance and Horde conflict in game was ass.

[Postmasters]

Not sure many people "like" it, but that's the narrative. Idk why you think battling Light and Shadow is such a problem, considering we're literally in the Cosmic Realms of Death this expac, and are battling against a being whose existence goes against the balance between not just Life and Death, but the entire Cosmos as a whole.

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Was a major part in getting the Kul'tirans to join the Alliance, led the charge against the Horde in Dazar'alor, aided in the battle against Azshara in 8.2 (Even if he himself wasn't at the Eternal Palace), teamed up with Wrathion and Magni in the aid against N'Zoth, and managed to bring both the Alliance, and Horde together in order to sign an armistice to end the War.

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Ngl, this was prolly one of the best moments in BFA. Just sucks the open world Alliance and Horde conflict in game was ass.

Wasn't that jaina? I honestly cant recall anduin doing anything useful in bfa...

[TheFirstOnes]

Kinda weird how Saurfang talks about Sylvanas being the heir to Blackhand's legacy...even tho Garrosh existed...and was more an heir than Sylvanas could ever be.

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Wasn't that jaina? I honestly cant recall anduin doing anything useful in bfa...

Kinda? Was moreso a united effort between Jaina and Anduin. Jaina was the one trying to get the Kul'tirans to even trust her, while Anduin's the one who recruited them.

[Postmasters]

Also as an aside note it's kinda fucked up how everyone just forgives jaina for murdering her father who was proven 100% correct in his beliefs about the horde... I still don't get why that was brushed over. Admiral proudmoore was 100% right and justified in his actions and died a hero of the alliance.

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Kinda weird how Saurfang talks about Sylvanas being the heir to Blackhand's legacy...even tho Garrosh existed...and was more an heir than Sylvanas could ever be.

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Kinda? Was moreso a united effort between Jaina and Anduin. Jaina was the one trying to get the Kul'tirans to even trust her, while Anduin's the one who recruited them.

I just can't see that portrayed in game... at all. If any thing the player character recruits them anduin just sobs in the corner about not being a man...

[TheFirstOnes]

Judging from the intro quests, Anduin was the one that suggested Kul'tiras join the Alliance. Genn criticizes Jaina for them leaving, the douche he is...

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Also as an aside note it's kinda fucked up how everyone just forgives jaina for murdering her father who was proven 100% correct in his beliefs about the horde... I still don't get why that was brushed over. Admiral proudmoore was 100% right and justified in his actions and died a hero of the alliance.

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I just can't see that portrayed in game... at all. If any thing the player character recruits them anduin just sobs in the corner about not being a man...

What Anduin's doing is something Varian would be most proud of, the fuck???

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How is he "cowering" at all. Dude's got shit going on through all sides rn, and he still managed to pull through.

[Zexaniro]

I mean.. the void stuff we got so far, starting in bc and with bfa it just sucked big time.

Going for a full void light expansion isnt exactly the best idea right now. They need to reconnect to players.. that is with more grounded things imo.

agree, and I don't think this light themed expansion is happening. it's too on the nose after shadowlands, even for blizzard.

the fact that the playerbase are so adamant that it's the theme for the next xpac should also raise hopeful red flags, everybody was saying dragon isles would be after BFA, and that there were all of these 'signs' and look what happened.

the next xpac will be something completely left-field, the theme probably hasn't even been speculated by the playerbase yet

[Postmasters]

Judging from the intro quests, Anduin was the one that suggested Kul'tiras join the Alliance. Genn criticizes Jaina for them leaving, the douche he is...

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What Anduin's doing is something Varian would be most proud of, the fuck???

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How is he "cowering" at all. Dude's got shit going on through all sides rn, and he still managed to pull through.

I just don't like the character. The naive peace keeper who is constantly betrayed is just boring and bad writing at this point. Varian went from a interesting character to a poorly written one through mop. Allowing the horde to exist after mop didn't make any sense. Lore wise that was the moment the factions should of merged. It wasn't even the first time the horde betrayed everyone...

It is part of the reason why the story telling in wow is so bad. Things happen to keep status quo rather then what should logically happen in the events.

[Sondrelk]

Also as an aside note it's kinda fucked up how everyone just forgives jaina for murdering her father who was proven 100% correct in his beliefs about the horde... I still don't get why that was brushed over. Admiral proudmoore was 100% right and justified in his actions and died a hero of the alliance.

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I just can't see that portrayed in game... at all. If any thing the player character recruits them anduin just sobs in the corner about not being a man...

It's a greater problem that permeates BfA. That the developers want the Horde to both be irreversably evil to facillitate the burning of Teldrassil and then continued support of Sylvanas, but also doesnt want to actually blame the Horde for anything.

The evil things done by the Horde are not done by actual orcs or trolls or tauren, it's done by an amorphous mass of "evil" Horde. Not to be confused with the "good" Horde.
No, the game really doesnt want to tell you which are which, except that the ones you kill are undoubtedly evil, unless you know them, in that case they are just misunderstood and swept up in the war machine.

Half of the Stormwsong valley zone for Alliance deals with the fallout of the Horde suddenly attacking a random town of civilans, killing the townsfolk and leaving children orphans for seemingly no gain. However when the Horde gets there this isnt even mentioned. Rexxar is indignant that his pets were killed by Alliance, and yet he doesnt even stop to consider why the Horde are in a densely populated zone of civilians that was just firebombed by the Horde.
All in all it comes across as frighteningly tone-deaf.


For the faction war story of BfA to function Blizzard needed to let a faction take the fall, and not just in the sense that one of the factions don't get to say they "won" a zone based on an off-hand mention by the developers after the fact.

Either the Alliance needed to be overly reactionary to Sylvanas' agression, or the Horde needed to take the fall for being evil.
The short story "A Good War" released alongside the BfA collectors edition heavily promotes the second option. Featuring Saurfang who seemingly devolves into a trance-like state at the mere idea that he can fight an honorable war for his people, not realizing before Teldrassil burns that he isnt the honorable hero he imagined himself as, he is the monstrous orc, the one that slaughtered Draenei and used their bones to pave a road, and who now burned a city of civilians while forcing their families to watch.

The problem is that a storyline with this level of depth of even only hinted at once, during the cinematic before the Alliance and Horde besieges Orgrimmar again. And even then we have Anduin who is right there to immediately defuse blame.
It doesnt matter that this is not just a wrong commited by the Horde, this is the latest in a long series of bloody conquests that the orcs are happy to commit.
The story should have given focus to how the Horde could move past it. How they could move beyond their bloodlust and false sense of honor towards a new path.

But instead we have BfA, where noone is bad but Sylvanas. Everyone else is just unjustly being punished for the crime of following their god-emperor in lockstep for the 3rd time in a generation.

[Postmasters]

It's a greater problem that permeates BfA. That the developers want the Horde to both be irreversably evil to facillitate the burning of Teldrassil and then continued support of Sylvanas, but also doesnt want to actually blame the Horde for anything.

The evil things done by the Horde are not done by actual orcs or trolls or tauren, it's done by an amorphous mass of "evil" Horde. Not to be confused with the "good" Horde.
No, the game really doesnt want to tell you which are which, except that the ones you kill are undoubtedly evil, unless you know them, in that case they are just misunderstood and swept up in the war machine.

Half of the Stormwsong valley zone for Alliance deals with the fallout of the Horde suddenly attacking a random town of civilans, killing the townsfolk and leaving children orphans for seemingly no gain. However when the Horde gets there this isnt even mentioned. Rexxar is indignant that his pets were killed by Alliance, and yet he doesnt even stop to consider why the Horde are in a densely populated zone of civilians that was just firebombed by the Horde.
All in all it comes across as frighteningly tone-deaf.


For the faction war story of BfA to function Blizzard needed to let a faction take the fall, and not just in the sense that one of the factions don't get to say they "won" a zone based on an off-hand mention by the developers after the fact.

Either the Alliance needed to be overly reactionary to Sylvanas' agression, or the Horde needed to take the fall for being evil.
The short story "A Good War" released alongside the BfA collectors edition heavily promotes the second option. Featuring Saurfang who seemingly devolves into a trance-like state at the mere idea that he can fight an honorable war for his people, not realizing before Teldrassil burns that he isnt the honorable hero he imagined himself as, he is the monstrous orc, the one that slaughtered Draenei and used their bones to pave a road, and who now burned a city of civilians while forcing their families to watch.

The problem is that a storyline with this level of depth of even only hinted at once, during the cinematic before the Alliance and Horde besieges Orgrimmar again. And even then we have Anduin who is right there to immediately defuse blame.
It doesnt matter that this is not just a wrong commited by the Horde, this is the latest in a long series of bloody conquests that the orcs are happy to commit.
The story should have given focus to how the Horde could move past it. How they could move beyond their bloodlust and false sense of honor towards a new path.

But instead we have BfA, where noone is bad but Sylvanas. Everyone else is just unjustly being punished for the crime of following their god-emperor in lockstep for the 3rd time in a generation.

If blizzard followed their lore anduin would of been disposed and slyvannas would of been murdered by a dozen different people from within the horde... jaina would of been rightfully left to die on nightmare island for her crimes and shaw would of likely been left to lead the human faction of the alliance.

Instead we get nonsensical plots because at some point around wrath every monstrous faction had to become some bland moderate human culture because players wanted to better relate to playing their characters...