If the night elves gave half of Ashenvale to the Horde, would there have been peace?

[wargone]

First of all the Tress of ashenvale, Are not just lumber. it sacred land.
2nd of all, had the night elves given Any part of to the hordes. garrosh would have wanted more.

ALSO Lore bonus fact. THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT of placeing Orgrimmar in Duratar, was a penance for the orcs Previous crimes, is why Thrall wanted to place it there.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

First impressions matter a lot : when the Orcs first encountered the Night Elves they had still some fel energy inside them and they started to cut the trees, and later killed Cenarius after drinking demon blood again.

this flatly didn't happen only Cenarius knew the orcs had any fel in them and he only showed up after the night elfs had already started first contact by attacking the orcs.

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When talking to Anduin in a cell after MoP he outright said that NO MATTER the resources, NO MATTER the circumstance or Alliance stance on that there WOULD HAVE BEING WAR. Because he saw war as the only way of the Horde. Its almost "sacred" (although he didnt used the word) right that they will eventually come to, no matter if their soon to be enemies are hostile, peaceful or even trying to placate them.

Garrosh said that there would have been war no matter what because the orcs were surrounded on all sides by enemy's with no other choices which was absolutely true at the time he became warchief. there was no bull about war being sacred you just made that up.

[Syegfryed]

I neither do headcanon nor bias, before BfA i was hardcore pro-both factions and loved both for their aesthetics but you, spiteful fucks ruined it for me and made me hate the Horde.

sure you were pro-both factions, thats why you had to base your entire argument in headcanon

Cause apparently the horde is being the villains for 20 years, if you was pro-horde villain then, what changed now?

You know that its not whole truth.

that is the whole truth, but apparently youa re not "hardcore pro-both factions" and just "pro-night elf" and since teldrasil, happened the entire race is doomed somehow.

As i said - if Alliance gets to be as brutal and merciless as the Horde and pummel you for several expansions with impunity

Which is what expansions exactly? cataclysm was all about balance with he two factions at war, with the alliance starting it. Mop the alliance raided and sacked the capital of the horde, you literally pummel the horde with impunity.

The only time the horde "attacked" by their own first was in the war of thorns and even there the alliance paid back, if you didn't like because the night elves didn't eradicate orgrimmar that is your problem.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And it's not like Garrosh was a diplomatic and reasonnable warchief who only went to war because there was no other solution and who wanted to make as little casualties as possible, nor that he tried any negocation with the Alliance, nor that he didn't want the Horde to be at war with the Alliance.

There was literally no other solution when he became warcheif the alliance has declared that they wanted to wipe out all orcs and then started attacking orcish lands while at the same time the night elf's halted all trade that the orcs needed to survive. It was literally take what they need or lay down and die.

Garrosh had been out for Alliance blood well before Varian declared war on the Horde, and he certainely enjoyed this declaration far more that he regretted it since it was making sure that he would get his chance to use force against the Alliance. He was never going to try to negociate with the Night Elves.

Yet garrosh hadn't launched any offensives until after the alliance had already struck and was even letting the horde Try and remake the trade deals.

[Syegfryed]

First of all the Tress of ashenvale, Are not just lumber. it sacred land.

arbitrary deciding what is sacred and what is not, arbtirary deciding who live and don't there, check

2nd of all, had the night elves given Any part of to the hordes. garrosh would have wanted more.

It would not, because Garrosh only came to be warhief in cataclysm, the night elves were fighting orcs and refusing trade since vanilla, if they wanted a epaceful relationship before, Garrosh would not have a grudge against it.

ALSO Lore bonus fact. THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT of placeing Orgrimmar in Duratar, was a penance for the orcs Previous crimes, is why Thrall wanted to place it there.

and that was bullshit, since there is no reason for the children and people born in the camps to suffer for the sins of their fathers, who, already suffered enough. Garrosh knew that.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And as I said above the Alliance and the Horde weren't at open war yet, it was Garrosh's attacks on Ashenvale that caused it to really happen. The Alliance wasn't attacking them on all fronts unlike what you said.

This flatly didn't happen the first orcish assaults happen in the wolf heartbook which takes place after the shattering and the alliance already striking first.

[Syegfryed]

The last one weren't total failures until the Twilight Hammer put its grain of salt here to ruin every chance of the two factions coming to a compromise.

the twilight hammer would not make much difference if the night elves didn't end the trade because the wrathgate.

Regardless, the night elves still used that as excuse to blame the orcs, despite horde people also dying because of the twllight hammer attack, saying they did or demanding the horde find the ones who did.

And it's not like Garrosh was trying to understand why the Alliance races would be so distrustful of the Horde when he himself had never grown out of his Old Horde ideology, with him still believing that the Horde should take lands and ressources without negociation and focusing on the Alliance's wrongs while glossing over the Horde's own, barring using Fel magic and drinking Mannoroth's blood.

there is nothing much to understand, in fact, it was very clear, the whole point of the alliance invading kalindor to attack the horde was to wipe then out, Varian said himself, what bussines stormwind and ironforge had in durotar and the barrens usurping taurens land?

There was not "understand" neither negotiate, the horde was being chocked by all sides, the population wad dying by famine without resources because alliance controlled the routes and severed the trade they established in the past, while constantly attacking then from different fronts. The alliance left no choice for the horde but strike back or die.

While the Alliance certainely had their wrongs in being so butthurt about the Horde getting ressources, Garrosh was certainely not the one qualified to respond to them and he was never going to make things really better for the Horde when the only language he wanted to understand with the Alliance was violence.

Garrosh was not put to be a negotiator or a pacifist, he was put to fight back, because that was the only option, even Thrall knew it.

And Everything garrosh did, weirdly, made everything better for the horde, until the devs orchestrated his downfall in mop.

[wargone]

arbitrary deciding what is sacred and what is not, arbtirary deciding who live and don't there, check


It would not, because Garrosh only came to be warhief in cataclysm, the night elves were fighting orcs and refusing trade since vanilla, if they wanted a epaceful relationship before, Garrosh would not have a grudge against it.



and that was bullshit, since there is no reason for the children and people born in the camps to suffer for the sins of their fathers, who, already suffered enough. Garrosh knew that.

1: Sooo? your an american? I assume with the whole? OH this native land Well it nothing but free relastate.??

2: It would garrosh wanted supreme control and death of anything that did not have an IQ under 9.

3: yea it was not a smart decision, most of the hordes problem can be traced down to thralls Guilts issues.

[DemonHunter18]

meh

both Orcs and Night Elves suck hard in this game.

I only ever liked them during WC3.

Orcs are dumb Hulks while Night Elves are pussies.

actually, all races are soooo boring.

[Super Dickmann]

You know that its not whole truth.

As i said - if Alliance gets to be as brutal and merciless as the Horde and pummel you for several expansions with impunity i am all for you weakly creeping into our capital, killing some chumps and getting out like a wind, leaving empty threat behind and giving us some juicy land rights.

Kill the cast! They are worse then dead anyway! But you will drown in your own blood first!

Also, Shandris basically the same as Saurfang or Eitrigg now, and she is our "second most important character".

I am done taking it lying, done holding it back. I will speak as i see fit.

The War of Thorns Alliance-side is a grueling death march played for pathos every step of the way where they feel like the enemy is just kicking them down. The Horde experience meanwhile is having Saurfang and Sylvanas plot out an extensive scheme, bring their entire forces to bare and then eke out a victory with a seven to one numbers advantage over night elf civilian forces, only to fail to remove any prominent character and fracture politically right at the end. Neither is a very satisfying experience even if I quite liked A Good War as a narrative, both in portraying the night elf defenders and in the Horde.

Given the way it's discussed up to now I sure wish the Horde did get a curbstomp win that the other guys imagine we had anyway since then at least there'd be a leg to stand on, but none of the major areas of complaint for the Alliance are playable. Losing then sucking up to Jaina and killing our own guys is the real focus of our war campaign.

Besides, I can't take any bit about characters being husks better off dead as a unique experience. Next patch we'll be looting Sadfang's soul as a fucking trinket and I'll be glad to do it to, given that he died wrecking this faction beyond repair on behalf of Anduin.

The last one weren't total failures until the Twilight Hammer put its grain of salt here to ruin every chance of the two factions coming to a compromise.

And it's not like Garrosh was trying to understand why the Alliance races would be so distrustful of the Horde when he himself had never grown out of his Old Horde ideology, with him still believing that the Horde should take lands and ressources without negociation and focusing on the Alliance's wrongs while glossing over the Horde's own, barring using Fel magic and drinking Mannoroth's blood.

While the Alliance certainely had their wrongs in being so butthurt about the Horde getting ressources, Garrosh was certainely not the one qualified to respond to them and he was never going to make things really better for the Horde when the only language he wanted to understand with the Alliance was violence.

The Twilight's Hammer did sabotage relations with false flags, but that doesn't alter that the impetus to compromise wasn't on either Garrosh or Thrall since the decision to declare war on Varian's part and the night elves cutting off trade both predate any Twilight's Hammer involvement. Thrall tried to arrange ceasefires and get to some kind of grounding despite having been the one war is declared upon and his people being in dire straits resource-wise because that's his personality, not because it was either a reasonable or correct position. Garrosh is under no moral obligation to attempt the same.

Garrosh starts off in Heart of War condemning people who talk ill of Thrall - it's only actually living among the orcs that he forms the views he does regarding the orcs' lot in life relative to the Alliance and he only turns on Thrall when Thrall enables the continuation thereof. Garrosh was not the reason Varian declared war nor did he have any hand in any of the things that lead to that point, what with being on another planet at the time. He's just the thankless sod who got the job to fix all of it once it predictably came crashing down.

most of the hordes problem can be traced down to thralls Guilts issues.

True, if Thrall wasn't crippled by green guilt and didn't deliberately put the orcs in a desert to starve to repent for their sins a lot of this could've been avoided.

[Feanoro]

@Super Dickmann Say what you will about Afrasiabi, but you have to admit he did a fantastically thorough job retconning Thrall to prop up Garrosh.

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And it's not like Garrosh was trying to understand why the Alliance races would be so distrustful of the Horde when he himself had never grown out of his Old Horde ideology, with him still believing that the Horde should take lands and ressources without negociation and focusing on the Alliance's wrongs while glossing over the Horde's own, barring using Fel magic and drinking Mannoroth's blood.

A lot of people still don't understand the Horde outgrowing the Garrosh mindset.

[Super Dickmann]

@Super Dickmann Say what you will about Afrasiabi, but you have to admit he did a fantastically thorough job retconning Thrall to prop up Garrosh.

It was the double whammy of Varian on Alliance-side making Thrall be at best negligent of gladiatorial slavery and the post-Wrath authors trying (and mostly succeeding for those who read them) to get Garrosh to actually work as a character past being first a manic depressive and then a mong.

Thrall did desperately need flaws and the orcs needed something to motivate them given how stale they'd been but even as probably the most vocal supporter of the necessity of that retcon here, I'll give you that Golden of all people having Thrall explaining he fucked over the orcs deliberately to teach them a lesson in complacency was a teensy bit on the nose. Just a bit.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

@Super Dickmann Say what you will about Afrasiabi, but you have to admit he did a fantastically thorough job retconning Thrall to prop up Garrosh.

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A lot of people still don't understand the Horde outgrowing the Garrosh mindset.

Thrall appointing Garrosh as warchief was so stupid because he really expected a prideful bellicist with no political and diplomatic skills, even toward other Horde races, who refused to listen to others the immense majority of the time, and hadn't learned his lesson about what was wrong with the Old Horde and great prejudice against the Alliance to mature quickly and be the right person for the job.

The Horde needed someone with strength and able to take tough decisions, but also to treat non-orcish Horde races with diplomacy and respect and to be willing to negociate with the Alliance should things have gotten better between the two factions, and able to listen to wisdow from others even when they disagree with him/her but Thrall chose someone who was cruelly lacking in the last three of these areas.

[Syegfryed]

1: Sooo? your an american? I assume with the whole? OH this native land Well it nothing but free relastate.??

Im am "American", but im not from usa, no, the world does not revolve around then. Even natives made sure to show their lands were inhabited, unlike night elves, so your comparison don't make much sense

2: It would garrosh wanted supreme control and death of anything that did not have an IQ under 9.

do you know the conflict started even before Garrosh right? how he could have wanted control over anything even he didn't even existed or was just a grunt?

3: yea it was not a smart decision, most of the hordes problem can be traced down to thralls Guilts issues.

And that was just a dumb thing blizzard came up in wow, in wc3 Thrall said it is because the place look like draenor and fit the orcs, back in the Rexxar campaign the place was ok, only in wow blizzard made it a hellhole.

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Thrall appointing Garrosh as warchief was so stupid because he really expected a prideful bellicist with no political and diplomatic skills, even toward other Horde races, who refused to listen to others the immense majority of the time, and hadn't learned his lesson about what was wrong with the Old Horde and great prejudice against the Alliance to mature quickly and be the right person for the job.

The Horde needed someone with strength and able to take tough decisions, but also to treat non-orcish Horde races with diplomacy and respect and to be willing to negociate with the Alliance should things have gotten better between the two factions, and able to listen to wisdow from others even when they disagree with him/her but Thrall chose someone who was cruelly lacking in the last three of these areas.

Thrall first choice was obviouslly Drannosh but he died.

Garrosh could be a better leader, thrall knew that, and trusted his advisors to forge Garrosh a better path, like it is show how in thousands timelines garrosh was always a good leader, but the advisors only tried to undermine him

Garrosh had no problem with other races as long they showed commitment, loyalty and pride in the horde, genuine ones, not fake. As long you get shit done you could be an elf or a goblin, like he said many times.

But what he saw was other races being cowards, traitors, who didn't want to fight the war the alliance started, claiming he was "a bloodthirsty guy who wanted to take the horde in a dark path". Vol'jin straight up prefer to die by the humans hands instead of committing to the war and said himself he as going to kill Garry, plus, Vol'jin didn't show up, and dind't send much forces to nortrend, the one "most dire hour" in Garrosh mind, those things made the trolls as a whole not treustworthy in his eyes.

Garrosh liked taurens, because they showed committed, especially in the Lich king war, but everything went to shit , the reasons? Cairne storm in his throne room, saying he was guilty of something he didn't do it, and slapping him the face, another tauren poisoning his blade and Baine prefering to ask help from Jaina instead of the horde, and betraying then to her later on in the theramore attack.

Blood elves, faking everything, forsakens and sylvanus being themselves, in his mind, he was alone and only orcs, and goblins, would do the job

[Kalisandra]

they have no problem giving ancestral land to draenei, neither had problem with other races in ashenvale, the bit of "didn't respect nature" is a damn meme and even cenarius himself forgive the orcs, fi their "god" was willing to do so, why they would still be bitching if it is not by their racist naure?

The Draenei crashed there by accident. The first thing they did upon dusting themselves off was to look at ways of fixing the damage the bits of the Exodar that were scattered everywhere caused. They also didn't go round cutting down trees or running firbolgs off their lands. In fact they immediately made friends with the firbolgs who were willing to talk to them. They helped shipwrecked Alliance explorers and injured night elves. They acted very firmly to remove the Satyrs that they found, which is something they see eye-to-eye with the Night Elves on.

So, the Draenei acted in a very different way to how the orcs acted. The Draenei showed, right from the start, respect for the land they found themselves in, the environment, and the peoples there. The Orcs did not.

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And the vast majority of the Night Elves don't know about Cenarius having forgiven the Orcs, and the Orcs have given them many reasons to continue to hate them other than Cenarius' death. As for Garrosh it's not just because of the war that he wanted for more, he was thirsty for Alliance blood already before the battle of the Undercity and wasn't willing to negociate at all when Thrall and Cairne were willing to negociate with the Night Elves despite Varian having officially declared war on the Horde.

At that time the Alliance was just that, and there was no High King. Varian could declare war all he liked, but it didn't mean the Alliance as a whole was at war.

The relatively recent move in the Alliance to making the Human king 'High King' is a stupid move. It's not like the Kings of Stormwind have a great track record, even when they're not minors with a government that's manipulated by dragons.

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This flatly didn't happen the first orcish assaults happen in the wolf heartbook which takes place after the shattering and the alliance already striking first.

The Horde was already killing Alliance soldiers in Northrend before ICC was attacked. There's a Northrend quest (daily, I think) where the Alliance is sent out to bandage fallen soldiers. The Horde equivalent is to be sent out to finish off the wounded Alliance still on the field.

So, no the Horde was not some innocent party that was attacked by the Alliance for nothing, and that's taking all their claims of ignorance of Putriss' plans at face value.

Back at the time I backed the Horde on this, though I did doubt that Sylvanas was as ignorant of what was going on as she claimed. I thought Varian was being a war-mongering dick, and was at fault. In retrospect it's clear that while he was being a war-mongering dick, he was also right, though he should've kept his mouth shut until the Lich King was defeated.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The Horde was already killing Alliance soldiers in Northrend before ICC was attacked. There's a Northrend quest (daily, I think) where the Alliance is sent out to bandage fallen soldiers. The Horde equivalent is to be sent out to finish off the wounded Alliance still on the field.

So, no the Horde was not some innocent party that was attacked by the Alliance for nothing, and that's taking all their claims of ignorance of Putriss' plans at face value.

Back at the time I backed the Horde on this, though I did doubt that Sylvanas was as ignorant of what was going on as she claimed. I thought Varian was being a war-mongering dick, and was at fault. In retrospect it's clear that while he was being a war-mongering dick, he was also right, though he should've kept his mouth shut until the Lich King was defeated.

The alliance was attacking the horde before even the wrath gate, they were both dicks but only one side declared war and then started that war and it was the alliance.

[Ardenaso]

First of all the Tress of ashenvale, Are not just lumber. it sacred land.
2nd of all, had the night elves given Any part of to the hordes. garrosh would have wanted more.

ALSO Lore bonus fact. THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT of placeing Orgrimmar in Duratar, was a penance for the orcs Previous crimes, is why Thrall wanted to place it there.

eh, how many orcs from the first and second war are still around? Varok's dead, Eitrigg's too old, Drek'thar's senile, and Drak'thul's crazy; time to move a new home on let's say Nazmir

[Kalisandra]

The alliance was attacking the horde before even the wrath gate, they were both dicks but only one side declared war and then started that war and it was the alliance.

Well, given that it was members of the Horde that wiped out the forces at Wrathgate, that's an undeclared act of war. And the Horde were attacking the Alliance pre-Wrathgate as well. Heck, Garrosh wanted to try and take the Alliance base in the Borean Tundra or to go across the whole continent to strike at their base in the Fjord, because turning a war where you're already running on a very long and thin logistics line is ever so intelligent. He never really understood when Saurfang tried explaining this to him either.

Garry was an idiot and a megalomaniac, and if the Alliance hadn't handed him excuses to go to war he'd have found one or made one up anyway.

Much is being made of the Night Elves' stopping of timber shipments, but the Horde was granted all of Azhara, which had plenty of trees (before the Goblins got going, anyway).

Also, bear in mind that all this time the Horde were trying to take chunks of Ashenvale off the Night Elves (Warsong Gulch), and were not replanting tress in the areas of Ashenvale they were felling, and were mistreating the firbolgs in the area, etc. The Night Elves were being pretty tolerant of Horde BS well before Wrathgate, and presumably finally got fed up.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Well, given that it was members of the Horde that wiped out the forces at Wrathgate, that's an undeclared act of war.

Nope, Even Varian Say's its not the horde there is simply no basis for counting it as an act of war when even the guy declaring the war says it doesn't count.

Much is being made of the Night Elves' stopping of timber shipments, but the Horde was granted all of Azhara

that wasn't until post cata The night elf's were actively trying to stop the horde in cata.

The Night Elves were being pretty tolerant of Horde BS well before Wrathgate, and presumably finally got fed up.

The night elf's Stood with stormwind they didn't get fed up they followed there ally into there race based war and became a target because of it both by the horde and by the Twilight hammer. they could have told SW To Sod off they could have not gone to war with the Aim of wiping out the orcs, they chose not to Putting the orcs into a No win situation where they either take what they need to fend off those trying to wipe them out or lay down and die.

All of this mind you Happens under thrall there was no Orc meance no big bad hot head looking for a fight just a orc looking for peace and A racist Varian wanting all of them dead.

[Syegfryed]

The Draenei crashed there by accident.

And? accident? didn't stop the night elves from shooting at orcs while they didn't know the forest "belonged" to someone else, that is pure hypocrisy.

I remember the "example" people here like to use "what if someone enter your house? you are ok in killing then!!1!" but if they put a car right trough your room is fine

They also didn't go round cutting down trees or running firbolgs off their lands.

Neither the orcs, so, what is your point?

So, the Draenei acted in a very different way to how the orcs acted. The Draenei showed, right from the start, respect for the land they found themselves in, the environment, and the peoples there. The Orcs did not.

Respect my ass, they literally crashed down destroying tons of trees and doing damage on the land, the orcs were just gathering some lumber to form a base, normally, and got killed for it. They were not even taking too much or taking rampantly, because they just got there and didn't find no one in the forests

The ones who "acted different in reality was the night elves, not straight up killing outsiders.

At that time the Alliance was just that, and there was no High King. Varian could declare war all he liked, but it didn't mean the Alliance as a whole was at war.

they were pretty much on war, regardless if he was not high king, the night elves even cancelled the trade because of it and started once again attacking orc caravans.

The Horde was already killing Alliance soldiers in Northrend before ICC was attacked. There's a Northrend quest (daily, I think) where the Alliance is sent out to bandage fallen soldiers. The Horde equivalent is to be sent out to finish off the wounded Alliance still on the field.

Same as the alliance, and even before WTLK, since vanilla the factions were killing each other in specific moments.

So, no the Horde was not some innocent party that was attacked by the Alliance for nothing

They were attacked since vanilla, and even before with Daelin

Back at the time I backed the Horde on this, though I did doubt that Sylvanas was as ignorant of what was going on as she claimed. I thought Varian was being a war-mongering dick, and was at fault. In retrospect it's clear that while he was being a war-mongering dick, he was also right, though he should've kept his mouth shut until the Lich King was defeated.

Bold of you to assume he was declaring war because of that moment or because of sylvanus.

Luckly, we already know Varian's reasons, cause he sad himself in undercity.

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Well, given that it was members of the Horde that wiped out the forces at Wrathgate, that's an undeclared act of war.

it was not, because the hore forces were attacked as well, claiming it is a "undecleared' act of war is bs.

And the Horde were attacking the Alliance pre-Wrathgate as well. Heck, Garrosh wanted to try and take the Alliance base in the Borean Tundra or to go across the whole continent to strike at their base in the Fjord, because turning a war where you're already running on a very long and thin logistics line is ever so intelligent. He never really understood when Saurfang tried explaining this to him either.

Garrosh wanting to attack is the example of the horde actualy attacking ?

want to point out that you tried to mock Garry inteligent, but saurfang himself was completely baffled how good Garrosh was doing. while brutally, and even said he could as well take the alliance.

Garry was an idiot and a megalomaniac, and if the Alliance hadn't handed him excuses to go to war he'd have found one or made one up anyway.

That is a fallacy, first, you are making look like the alliance handed him excuses to go to war, no, they literally started the war.

second, if the alliance didn't handed reasons, not excuses, Thrall would never made Garry as warchief, therefore he could not find one to go to war, because he would not have that power.

Much is being made of the Night Elves' stopping of timber shipments, but the Horde was granted all of Azhara, which had plenty of trees (before the Goblins got going, anyway).

Azshara was only given to horde after MOP, and the place was a hellhole before

Also, bear in mind that all this time the Horde were trying to take chunks of Ashenvale off the Night Elves (Warsong Gulch), and were not replanting tress in the areas of Ashenvale they were felling, and were mistreating the firbolgs in the area, etc. The Night Elves were being pretty tolerant of Horde BS well before Wrathgate, and presumably finally got fed up.

Yeah, cause wrathgate, attacking humans, was the straw that broke the camel's back for the night elves

Warsong gulch was only created because again, night elves didn't tolerate orcs, want to kill then and refuse all the trade

As orc story show in wc3, orcs can live fine with anyone who want to live with then, like taurens and trolls, funny enough, only the races who kill then on sight got streamrolled later, guilboars, centaurs and nigth elves.

The pretty lie alliance tells is how orcs are ragging monsters who do not have respect for nature and life and want destroy everything, despite they being shamans and befriending two among the most nature based races of azeroth.