[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Orby]

X-Men became such a shitshow later. The following panel was the reason why I stopped collecting or even caring about the title;



I firmly believe that this was some a-hole's sad writing attempt at testing the waters to see if there was any fan support for redeeming Sabertooth.

I am kinda getting sick at redemption angles in media. Its become a super popular trope lately... everyone has gotta be redeemed. Everyone has gotta have a reason, like no, some people are just pieces of shit! :P

and a good redem,ption can be done well, but I have seen people be written to have done the worst things, and then writers be like 'hey let's redeem him'.

Let's be honest its not the first time Sabretooth has become a 'good guy' but he's always been manipulative in his reasoning, you know he cannot be trusted. My favourite of these moment is in the early 90's when he tried fooling the x-men into thinking he was 'good' then went on a killing spree

[Shadowferal]

I am kinda getting sick at redemption angles in media. Its become a super popular trope lately... everyone has gotta be redeemed. Everyone has gotta have a reason, like no, some people are just pieces of shit! :P

This was the early 90s. The title was branching in some rather expensive ways. Comic prices were spiking up, and some titles were at least 3x as much. ($1.25-$3.95) but crappy artwork and inconsistent stories made it all just a waste of money. And those shiny foil covers (A #1 ISSUE A COLLECTOR'S ITEM!!!1)...no. the comics industry and its implosion would be delayed by Image comics which seemed a fresh take on something stale. (Ironic to see Rob Liefeld in that)

[Orby]

This was the early 90s. The title was branching in some rather expensive ways. Comic prices were spiking up, and some titles were at least 3x as much. ($1.25-$3.95) but crappy artwork and inconsistent stories made it all just a waste of money. And those shiny foil covers (A #1 ISSUE A COLLECTOR'S ITEM!!!1)...no. the comics industry and its implosion would be delayed by Image comics which seemed a fresh take on something stale. (Ironic to see Rob Liefeld in that)

Thats the problem with long running comics in general, different writers and editors invoke different narratives, noting is going to be consistent forever. There have ben some weird retcons and changes in comics and it always goes back around to the status quo eventually. alos yea the price hikes are just a reason why I go TPB these days

I am not reading any big brand comics right now. As I said I gave up on DC and Marvel a long time ago. I been reading this fantasy comic that's called Elves



It's translated from French, great artwork too, and its the most fun I have had reading a comic in years. they have others in the series, Orcs, Mage, and Dwarf... but I cannot find mnay French to English translated editions yet. The Elves series is the only complete series that's translated and complete.

also I have a secret love of comics from France, probably why I loved Asterix as a kid. (regarding Asterix waiting in fear for that comic series to be on the 'cancelled' list soon. seeing some of the very, shall we say, interesting artistic interpretations of certain groups.)

[Shadowferal]

Thats the problem with long running comics in general, different writers and editors invoke different narratives, noting is going to be consistent forever. There have ben some weird retcons and changes in comics and it always goes back around to the status quo eventually. alos yea the price hikes are just a reason why I go TPB these days I am not reading any big brand comics right now. As I said I gave up on DC and Marvel a long time ago. I been reading this fantasy comic that's called Elves It's translated from French, great artwork too, and its the most fun I have had reading a comic in years. they have others in the series, Orcs, Mage, and Dwarf... but I cannot find mnay French to English translated editions yet. The Elves series is the only complete series that's translated and complete. also I have a secret love of comics from France, probably why I loved Asterix as a kid. (waiting in fear for that comic series to be on the 'cancelled' list soon. seeing some of the very, shall we say, interesting artistic interpretations of certain groups.)

Hmm...Elves? scoping out the covers here has a nice retro fantasy 70s feel to me.

[Orby]

Hmm...Elves? scoping out the covers here has a nice retro fantasy 70s feel to me.

You can only get 3 volumes (issue 1 -6 over 3 volumes). in physical form. The rest I can only get on digital.

[Endus]

I wouldn't consider the Sokovia accords to be even close to the same thing as the prejudice mutants face. Captain America was never "hated and feared"...hell, even after becoming a "war criminal"...his PSA's were still part of the High School Curriculum.

The registration stuff that went down in the comics that the Sokovia Accords were based on were very much oriented around mutants primarily; see the panels linked by Orby. So it literally is the same thing; people with powers being registered so the government can try and control them as a segment of the population. Picking out Cap kind of misses the point, because he had literal decades of propaganda support; look how many other Avengers went to the Raft without any public outcry.

I mean, I'd be very happy with a Disney+ series that was more focused on the school and the kids... but I'm not sure that makes a good movie series. "Wolverine teaches Gym Class" makes for a fun interlude in a movie... but it isn't the movie itself

1> High school drama stuff is a SUPER hot genre. Both in film and especially TV.
2> If I had a primary arc I'd want to tell, it'd be some agency wanting to exploit the kids, taking them to brainwash/install control devices and weaponize them. Some branch of the X-program, one more interested in turning people into weapons than building them up from a blank slate; faster returns. If it's a Disney+ show, you'd get a couple episodes to get to know the kids and teachers, and then the attack would happen, and the rest of the show is the teachers banding together to break into that heavily-defended militarized complex to save them, and the kids' resistance inside the complex. The story's not about their classes; it's about the personal relationships, the responsibilities of teachers, etc. Scale the focus of the X-men way down so it's not global threats they're primarily concerned about, it's protecting and supporting their own.

FWIW, I'm a pretty big detractor of Xavier's vision of trying to show off as heroes to make people be okay with mutants. "We're useful, stop hating us" is a pretty garbage viewpoint that gives the bigotry he's trying to overcome a veneer of validity; "you're right to be afraid, but we're the good ones". Ugh. Imagine making that kind of plea with regards to black Americans. Maybe it made sense in the '60s and '70s when this was new; I don't blame the writers, particularly. I'm just saying it doesn't translate into today's world very well as a metaphor.

They were trying to do that with Inhumans in the comics. They wanted to sideline mutants entirely... because they didn't want to give the fox movies and free advertising. Didn't work. Whatever the reason...Inhumans just don't hit home the way Mutants do...even to the non-comic readers.

Probably just down to "we like these characters and don't like the new characters", rather than anything to do with the specific differences between mutants and Inhumans.

Make the X-men all Inhumans. What does that change? They're exactly the same, it's still genetic, still the same powers and characters, they just;
A> at some point in their lives went into a terrigenesis cocoon for a bit, possibly even overnight in their sleep, and
B> introduces the new idea, barely explored in the films, of additional cycles of terrigenesis where they re-cocoon and gain new powers.

I don't see that this meaningfully changes much.

That is what most people would call an "unpopular opinion". The Dark Phoenix Saga is considered by most X-fans to be among the greatest X-men Stories of all time. You won't find many "Best X-Men Story Arcs" lists that don't have it at least in the top 5. It's the reason they keep on trying to do it. The problem is they always want to rush it...and it's a slow burn. Like I said, if they wanted to devote an entire phase to it...that could be a thing... but this whole "let's do it all in a single movie while we're also dealing with this other thing" just doesn't work. Even in the animated series...they devoted 9 episodes to it...but, after you accoutn for commercial breaks...that still only works out to about 3 hours.... which is how long "The Batman" is.

I was speaking more broadly about the Phoenix arc in general. They haven't even really tried to do the Dark Phoenix angle, not really. Given that the key moment, there, was Phoenix leaving Earth and genociding an entire random star system. Part of the real problem of doing it is that you necessarily have to make Jean a villain. That part of the story was more interesting, but it's not the part they keep trying to do in the movies.

Like, the entire point of the original arc is Jean's loss of control, to the point where she realizes she can't be saved, that she's responsible for the deaths of billions, and so she kills herself. Last Stand removes both the genocide and Jean's agency in killing herself, Dark Phoenix just lets her be a hero in a self-sacrifice. The whole point is that sometimes, there's no redemption to be had. Lines that, once crossed, can't be un-crossed. To the point that they made sure that when/if they ever brought Jean back, it had to be in a way that meant she wasn't tied to Dark Phoenix's actions, literally had no part in them, because that Jean absolutely was ​responsible.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

X-Men are heroes by convivence, If Disney treat them like just another hero team then it will suck, there is so much nuance to X-Men I'm pretty sure people don't get. Most of the time they treat and distance themselves from heroes or at least on how they are viewed because of the fact they are mutants. they don't choose to be heroes.

also it depends on your writers for them I guess. Recently things may have changed I haven't read X-Men for 4 years. but I always like that scene post Civil War

They still absolutely choose to be heroes. And yeah, in that time period some of the X-Men were getting pretty resentful of the other Superhero teams...because, whenever the Avengers put out the call for help...the X-Men show up. But when the X-Men are the ones in need... they get nothing.







You don't have to like it but X-Men:TAS is the best adaptation of all the Phoenix Saga adaptations. Mainly because it carried itself over 2 seasons, let it breathe, let it develop. With a 2 hour movie will never have that, that's why all the other attempts have failed, they have tried to cram a 'saga' into one movie every time and its always suffered because of it.

X-Men TAS did Phoenix in 9 episodes. That's just over 3 hours of content once you take commercial breaks into account. That's less time than the Snyder Cut of Justice League. Also, it's a cartoon intended for children...so it really doesn't get into the "darkness" that you say you want form an X-Men film.

[Canpinter]

FWIW, I'm a pretty big detractor of Xavier's vision of trying to show off as heroes to make people be okay with mutants. "We're useful, stop hating us" is a pretty garbage viewpoint that gives the bigotry he's trying to overcome a veneer of validity; "you're right to be afraid, but we're the good ones". Ugh. Imagine making that kind of plea with regards to black Americans. Maybe it made sense in the '60s and '70s when this was new; I don't blame the writers, particularly. I'm just saying it doesn't translate into today's world very well as a metaphor.

I think this highlights a major flaw with the premise of X-men as a whole and more specifically as an metaphor for oppressed groups. Simply put it's totally reasonable to be afraid of alot of mutants given how much damage they can cause even on accident, but they same isn't true for being black or LGBT ect.

I'm bi but it doesn't matter how many guys I sleep with I'm not going to be able to rewrite reality on a whim like proteus.

[Orby]

They still absolutely choose to be heroes. And yeah, in that time period some of the X-Men were getting pretty resentful of the other Superhero teams...because, whenever the Avengers put out the call for help...the X-Men show up. But when the X-Men are the ones in need... they get nothing.

But as I said they are heroes of convivence, unlike other actual heroes they never had a choice, they are only in that position because of how they were born, and how they are perceived, they are mutants. They are thrust into that position. They don't want to be heroes, they just want to belong in this world that doesn't want them. What part of that sounds like your average super hero team like the Avengers of Fantastic 4. X-Men are not just some super hero team, and if you think they are you haven't read or understood the X-Men.

X-Men TAS did Phoenix in 9 episodes. That's just over 3 hours of content once you take commercial breaks into account. That's less time than the Snyder Cut of Justice League. Also, it's a cartoon intended for children...so it really doesn't get into the "darkness" that you say you want form an X-Men film.

More than that if you count corresponding tie in episodes that deal with the in-betweens and aftermath. Between the Phoenix Saga and the dark Phoenix saga there are other episodes that deal with the event, But as I said you don't have to like it, its still the best adaptation of the show. unless your argument is you think one of the other adaptations of the event is better?

FWIW, I'm a pretty big detractor of Xavier's vision of trying to show off as heroes to make people be okay with mutants. "We're useful, stop hating us" is a pretty garbage viewpoint that gives the bigotry he's trying to overcome a veneer of validity; "you're right to be afraid, but we're the good ones". Ugh. Imagine making that kind of plea with regards to black Americans. Maybe it made sense in the '60s and '70s when this was new; I don't blame the writers, particularly. I'm just saying it doesn't translate into today's world very well as a metaphor.

Xavier's vision was to achieve peaceful coexistence. "we're useful so stop hating us" 'in quotes', can you show me where that's quoted?

Here's an actual quote from Xavier from the comics.

My name is Charles Xavier. I am a mutant. And once upon a time I had a dream... of a world where all Earth's children, both mutant and baseline human, might live together in peace. This isn't it. This is today's reality. - — Excalibur Vol 3 #1

Not sure where you get this idea that Xavier's vision of peaceful coexistence is explained in such a horrible way, unless some really bad writer was given the X-Men reigns. Trust me there are some awfully written X-books out there so it wouldn't surprise me.

I think this highlights a major flaw with the premise of X-men as a whole and more specifically as an metaphor for oppressed groups. Simply put it's totally reasonable to be afraid of alot of mutants given how much damage they can cause even on accident, but they same isn't true for being black or LGBT ect.

I'm bi but it doesn't matter how many guys I sleep with I'm not going to be able to rewrite reality on a whim like proteus.

I am bi/pan myself given the power I cannot say for sure what I am capable of, its something I tend to put down to who is writing, the best X-Men stories is when the humans are the asshole and villains. But I do understand though that in no matter what groups there are horrible people who are willing to hurt the process of achieving equality by making it worse. Look at Jesse Smollett, the guy wanted to throw out some lies he didn't need to, we can see the issues he tries to highlight, and they exist, he didn't need to commit a fucking crime to achieve it. and in the wake of that you give fuel to horrible far right beliefs that this is what it all is, and provide doubt in people.

There are extreme examples of political beliefs through extremism that affect minorities who had none to do with it too, but I am not jumping down that rabbit role. I had a few friends affected in a post 9/11 world through the actions of some they had no relation too, and some of those people were not even belonging to that group ethnically or religiously, its just their skin colour was a similar colour so they were the problem.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Apologies, this is a long post with a lot of pics.

The registration stuff that went down in the comics that the Sokovia Accords were based on were very much oriented around mutants primarily; see the panels linked by Orby. So it literally is the same thing; people with powers being registered so the government can try and control them as a segment of the population. Picking out Cap kind of misses the point, because he had literal decades of propaganda support; look how many other Avengers went to the Raft without any public outcry.

No, the Sokovia Accords are based on the Superhuman Registration Act...not the Mutant Registration Act. Very different things. The Sokovia accords made it illegal to be a Superhero without government permission. The Mutant Registration act basically criminalized just being a mutant. And, to be clear, what we're talking about here is, for the most part, teenagers.

1> High school drama stuff is a SUPER hot genre. Both in film and especially TV.

High School Drama movies aren't Billion Dollar box Office hits.

2> If I had a primary arc I'd want to tell, it'd be some agency wanting to exploit the kids, taking them to brainwash/install control devices and weaponize them. Some branch of the X-program, one more interested in turning people into weapons than building them up from a blank slate; faster returns. If it's a Disney+ show, you'd get a couple episodes to get to know the kids and teachers, and then the attack would happen, and the rest of the show is the teachers banding together to break into that heavily-defended militarized complex to save them, and the kids' resistance inside the complex. The story's not about their classes; it's about the personal relationships, the responsibilities of teachers, etc. Scale the focus of the X-men way down so it's not global threats they're primarily concerned about, it's protecting and supporting their own.

The TV show can be whatever they want it to be. They literally have done X-Men comics that focused more on the training of the students. For example:



An entire series devoted to (almost) entirely new characters...learning how to control their powers. Yes, later in the series they do start moving more into "superhero" territory...but they could do at least an entire season that's just the kids learning to be X-Men. And they can drop in the Actual X-Men for cameos here and there. So you can have that "Wolverine teaching Gym Class" moment and it's more than just a fun interlude.

FWIW, I'm a pretty big detractor of Xavier's vision of trying to show off as heroes to make people be okay with mutants. "We're useful, stop hating us" is a pretty garbage viewpoint that gives the bigotry he's trying to overcome a veneer of validity; "you're right to be afraid, but we're the good ones". Ugh. Imagine making that kind of plea with regards to black Americans. Maybe it made sense in the '60s and '70s when this was new; I don't blame the writers, particularly. I'm just saying it doesn't translate into today's world very well as a metaphor.

But like, that's kind of true with Black Americans. They have to work twice as hard to get half as much. And really, the tone of more recent X-Men comics has more been "We're here, We're mutants, don't fuck with us and we won't fuck with you." I mean, When Magneto and Apocalypse are basically Ambassadors...






And this:

I was speaking more broadly about the Phoenix arc in general. They haven't even really tried to do the Dark Phoenix angle, not really. Given that the key moment, there, was Phoenix leaving Earth and genociding an entire random star system. Part of the real problem of doing it is that you necessarily have to make Jean a villain. That part of the story was more interesting, but it's not the part they keep trying to do in the movies.

Like, the entire point of the original arc is Jean's loss of control, to the point where she realizes she can't be saved, that she's responsible for the deaths of billions, and so she kills herself. Last Stand removes both the genocide and Jean's agency in killing herself, Dark Phoenix just lets her be a hero in a self-sacrifice. The whole point is that sometimes, there's no redemption to be had. Lines that, once crossed, can't be un-crossed. To the point that they made sure that when/if they ever brought Jean back, it had to be in a way that meant she wasn't tied to Dark Phoenix's actions, literally had no part in them, because that Jean absolutely was ​responsible.

All you are saying is what I just said...that they have never done the Phoenix arc right... they've fucked it up at every turn. And, given a choice between having them fuck it up again and never attempting it...I'll choose the latter. But what you said previously is that it isn't an interesting arc. That's the part I objected to. Because a properly done phoenix arc could be awesome...it would just take a lot more time to setup than anyone has been willing to invest thus far.

Though, I will remind you, that at the end of the Dark Phoenix in the comics...Phoenix does sacrifice herself... because she can't live with it and she can't watch the X-Men die trying to "save" her. That's as much of a "redemption" as she gets. And, no, it doesn't come close to making up for what she did as Dark Phoenix...she caused the deaths of billions, if not trillions, of people.

[Endus]

Xavier's vision was to achieve peaceful coexistence. "we're useful so stop hating us" 'in quotes', can you show me where that's quoted?

I didn't mean his objective. I meant his method.

Which was to establish the X-men as a superhero team who could save people and do good things; to show mutants as "useful" to a population that was afraid. He didn't demand co-existence as a right of mutantkind, that the bigotries against them were hateful and irrational. He implicitly endorsed those bigotries, with his approach.

I'm not saying I'm a Magneto guy, either, because there's more than those two choices. But let's recall that Xavier is not a good person, fundamentally. He's engaged in deliberate brainwashing (Logan, among others). He had an affair with a patient, and never supported the child that resulted (David Haller, who became the mutant Legion). He was SUPER gross about Jean Grey. Like, perving over her when she was his teenage student gross. Among other pretty heinous acts. And that's just considering the ones where he's definitely in full control of his faculties. Not stuff like Onslaught or the shit that went down with his twin, Cassandra.

[Orby]

@Evil Midnight Bomber New X-Men was one of my favourite comic book series' of the 2000's and Children's End was one of my favourite events of that series too... Marvel haven't really used Surge as well as they did then, she was one of my favourite characters

But like, that's kind of true with Black Americans. They have to work twice as hard to get half as much. And really, the tone of more recent X-Men comics has more been "We're here, We're mutants, don't fuck with us and we won't fuck with you." I mean, When Magneto and Apocalypse are basically Ambassadors...

Is this a current story, I haven't read much comics from Marvel since 2016 :P

I didn't mean his objective. I meant his method.

Which was to establish the X-men as a superhero team who could save people and do good things; to show mutants as "useful" to a population that was afraid. He didn't demand co-existence as a right of mutantkind, that the bigotries against them were hateful and irrational. He implicitly endorsed those bigotries, with his approach.

I'm not saying I'm a Magneto guy, either, because there's more than those two choices. But let's recall that Xavier is not a good person, fundamentally. He's engaged in deliberate brainwashing (Logan, among others). He had an affair with a patient, and never supported the child that resulted (David Haller, who became the mutant Legion). He was SUPER gross about Jean Grey. Like, perving over her when she was his teenage student gross. Among other pretty heinous acts. And that's just considering the ones where he's definitely in full control of his faculties. Not stuff like Onslaught or the shit that went down with his twin, Cassandra.

ahh okay my bad. I skimmed through your post a bit fast.

Oh yea Xavier was never a saint, I agree, he kept alot of secrets but I do tend to put that down to alot of writers have a hate boner for Xavier :P

although I did enjoy Deadly Genesis

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

@Evil Midnight Bomber New X-Men was one of my favourite comic book series' of the 2000's and Children's End was one of my favourite events of that series too... Marvel haven't really used Surge as well as they did then, she was one of my favourite characters

Yeah, same...I've recently just re-read the series on Marvel Unlimited. And yeah, Surge is great.

Is this a current story, I haven't read much comics from Marvel since 2016 :P

Pretty Recent. Hickman's Run on X-Men started a couple years ago. I'm a little behind on it now.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yea Xavier was never a saint, I agree, he kept alot of secrets but I do tend to put that down to alot of writers have a hate boner for Xavier :P

Yeah, most Xavier Behaving Badly things were written retroactively. And with David... he was not aware Gabrielle was pregnant when he left... though there are the ethical issues of getting romatically involved with a patient.

[Orby]

Pretty Recent. Hickman's Run on X-Men started a couple years ago. I'm a little behind on it now.

Would you say its any good, I wasnt a fan of his run on Avengers

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Would you say its any good, I wasnt a fan of his run on Avengers

It's very "Hickman"...so you might not like it.

[Adamas102]

High School Drama movies aren't Billion Dollar box Office hits.

Harry Potter franchise says hi.

Yeah, gearing the X-men to more of a children driven, school adventure/drama type of story would piss of A LOT of sweaty adults, but there's definitely a market for it.

[StillMcfuu]

Actor of the halo series said he talked to marvel about being wolverine, what you guys think?


Also supposed credit scenes of Morbius leaked as well, they don't seem to be very exciting.

I like Pablo, but he's a terrible actor.

[Orby]

Harry Potter franchise says hi.

Yeah, gearing the X-men to more of a children driven, school adventure/drama type of story would piss of A LOT of sweaty adults, but there's definitely a market for it.

Considering the size and scope of the X-Men (They could basically have their own universe lol), there could be a series based on kids at the school, New Mutants, New X-Men, Young X-Men, Generation X, X-Terminators, X-Statix, could all work. Sure maybe not for a main X title but there's room for an side project TV show there.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Harry Potter franchise says hi.

There's a difference between a franchise that uses a school as it's setting and making that setting the primary focus of the action though. X-Men also takes place in a school setting...but there's the whole "save the world from Magneto/Apocalypse/etc" that's actually driving the story.

Yeah, gearing the X-men to more of a children driven, school adventure/drama type of story would piss of A LOT of sweaty adults, but there's definitely a market for it.

Like I said, I think it could be a good idea for a D+ series. "New X-Men", for example, could easily be adapted into a "High School Competition" series.

[SavoirFaire]

I am kinda getting sick at redemption angles in media. Its become a super popular trope lately... everyone has gotta be redeemed. Everyone has gotta have a reason, like no, some people are just pieces of shit! :P

There’s a late 80s/early 90s X-men villain poster on which I’d say close to half are either their friends or allies now. Juggernaut. frost. Magneto. Seems like any time I pick up avengers they are fighting each other. MCU isn’t much better about this either killing so many of their villains. I’ve got a lot of hope for Kang and Doom, though.

I really want X-Men to do their own thing. I re-read X-Men up to a bit past dark Phoenix last time I had Marvel Unlimited, and that was such an awesome slow burn. I want them to do a slow burn like that of their own, blow people away with what they pull, but make it new. Perhaps use Rogue or Majik, just not Jean. I preferred her dead, and frankly never cared for her all that much in the first place.