Do Countries Ever Unite?

[Ravenblade]

http://www2.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/n...afficking.aspx


The actual problem is that countries like Germany, Holland, Denmark, France, etc are trying to profit by legalizing human trafficking.

That's one way to spin it but the article does not say that nor is that really true.

That legalised prostitution increases human trafficking inflows is likely, but cannot be proven with available evidence.

Or in short: Something being likely does not equal fact.

The researchers also note that other reasons might speak against prohibiting prostitution despite its impact on human trafficking.

Wait, they are against it despite the likeliness of increased trafficking?

The article concludes: “The likely negative consequences of legalised prostitution on a country’s inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favour of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking. However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalisation of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes—at least those legally employed—if prostitution is legalised. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky “freedom of choice” issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services.”

...and that's the most important thing. In order to understand the situation you have to look a bit closer. I can only speak for Germany not for the other countries. Prostitution - sometimes declared as oldest profession of mankind - has been illegal for a long time and you barely got any social or medical support. The move towards legalisation was done out of pragmatism. Naturally as it is some countries end up as portals and transfer sites even if they did not chose to be it. Germany was one of them and actually still is when it comes to international crimes - I am talking mafia crimes. So in order to prosecute the more hard and actually cruel cases the police established good contacts with the prostitution scene which helped to separate the wheat from the chaff. Eventually left-wing and liberal politicians took an interest in legalizing part of it in order to improve living conditions and combat crime more effectively. Crimes like child prostitution, slavery and forced prostitution and various forms of drug-dealing is still illegal and are still prosecuted as high-severity crimes.
With that said I don't think banning it again would exactly help it. It would create dark figures where there had been pretty clear pictures by now and regardless what has been said about not signing treaties and agreements and what: It is actually actively prosecuted here and there's been a good deal of prevention going on here. In that even the EU agrees and since Germany did actually sign this convention. Where it lacks though is the level of protection of victims which is mainly due to immigration laws and that has been the actually real issue since years, not the lack of fighting against human trafficking or prevention of it but the lack of protection of those falling victim to that due to being declared "illegal immigrant" regardless whether the affected person wanted it or not. And since that has to be improved first and thus legal processes being improved and sped up first signing it would not help. But it is very likely that this will happen before the next elections this later this year still.

So see the EU as a whole is nowhere near legalizing slavery nor is Germany hell-bent on legalizing human trafficking quite the opposite, they are just slow and if you were German yourself you would not be surprised. Stuff can sometimes take more than half a decade and even up to a decade before fully handled by law. Since Germany did sign the preliminary convention already they couldn't back out anyway even if they truly followed a malicious agenda of neo-slavery. I know this might come over as unbelievable but most Germans don't approve of slavery so it is actual a self-interest to work against it on all levels including protection of victims.

[Cybran]

...and that's the most important thing. In order to understand the situation you have to look a bit closer. I can only speak for Germany not for the other countries. Prostitution - sometimes declared as oldest profession of mankind - has been illegal for a long time and you barely got any social or medical support. The move towards legalisation was done out of pragmatism. Naturally as it is some countries end up as portals and transfer sites even if they did not chose to be it. Germany was one of them and actually still is when it comes to international crimes - I am talking mafia crimes. So in order to prosecute the more hard and actually cruel cases the police established good contacts with the prostitution scene which helped to separate the wheat from the chaff. Eventually left-wing and liberal politicians took an interest in legalizing part of it in order to improve living conditions and combat crime more effectively. Crimes like child prostitution, slavery and forced prostitution and various forms of drug-dealing is still illegal and are still prosecuted as high-severity crimes.

http://www.examiner.com/article/germ...ation-to-women

But in reality, legalization not only increased sex trafficking of women and children but also fail to change the stigma attached to prostitution for the past few years. A study shows that the majority of prostitutes in Germany prefer to "do the job secretly because they still experience discrimination." The same study also shows that even the government agencies are not willing to broker jobs or offer retraining as they do for employees in other industries. Further, the health insurance company does not provide special health provisions for prostitutes. In terms of their rights, many prostitutes in Germany are still live in poor conditions and exploited by the pimps and the landlords who take the majority of the prostitutes' earnings.

Women become cheaper

As German law recognizes prostitution as a legitimate employment choice, some women are forced into prostitution when they are unemployed. Under the German law, any unemployed women under the age of 55 are required to take a job available on the national listings if they have been out of job more than a year. Otherwise, their unemployment benefit will be taken away from them.

What you claim is not what is really going on.

[Ravenblade]

http://www.examiner.com/article/germ...ation-to-women


What you claim is not what is really going on.

First off I did not claim anything and that includes no verification of success nor a special personal praise because frankly I don't really think this is the right place and topic to debate German prostitution laws and I personally do not think highly of this kind of progress made by a of neoliberal Green/Socialdemocrat govt. who were at that time blamed to do it only for the extra tax income.

As far as my intentions went: I only recounted the legislation process with the reasoning behind in order to broaden the understanding of the whole situation.

Another issue is that the official claim now is that legislation of prostitution here has never been done solely to combat human trafficking. The Greens and left-wing socialdemocrats hoped that a legislation would lead to a drop in addition to the vast amount of other issues it was supposed to solve. The debate was much older than the law itself and started in a time when human trafficking especially from East Europe was not the prime concern. The legislation primarily happened in order to de-criminalize a business which was intertwined with mafia-style businesses of other kind and make way for legal procedures applying to all professions.

As usual if you are trying something new you will inevitably go through several iterations before getting it right. This especially applies to cases where there's no precedent for it and is unique to that country. There is a tons more material available about it in German than in English by the way. Just try this or this if you are specially interested in this topic.

I noticed the article is from 2010. Usually this topic has been an ongoing issue here as well - there hasn't been a day where this wasn't debated, these days gender quota debates are just overshadowing it. So some things have improved and some are still unresolved. It's much more complex and goes beyond the scope of just human trafficking and they have to resolved each independently. The legal and moral issues around legalized prostitution are ours to resolve since a leftist govt. thought it was a very progressive step to take. The issues around human trafficking whilst distantly related is a wholly different issue to resolve these days because times have changed and global situation as well. But as far as I am aware it is much more about protection of victims or the lack of it rather than prevention and prosecution. If your claim would be true, and the EU especially Germany - your favourite antagonist as it seems - want to decriminalize human trafficking would be true then we wouldn't the EU actively strive for it instead of asking their member countries to speed up the ratification process and do more against it?

[Cybran]

First off I did not claim anything and that includes no verification of success nor a special personal praise because frankly I don't really think this is the right place and topic to debate German prostitution laws and I personally do not think highly of this kind of progress made by a of neoliberal Green/Socialdemocrat govt. who were at that time blamed to do it only for the extra tax income.

My initial claim was that certain governments try to profit from the misfortune of people from less developed countries. There are numerous reports and statistics support this claim.

If your claim would be true, and the EU especially Germany - your favourite antagonist as it seems - want to decriminalize human trafficking would be true then we wouldn't the EU actively strive for it instead of asking their member countries to speed up the ratification process and do more against it?

First: Why does everyone think I hate their country?

On topic: By passing the lax EU laws is extremely easy.
http://www.efbww.org/pdfs/annex%209%...20%5BEN%5D.pdf

No court cases involving bogus self-employment have been held because it is not a matter that is handled by the courts. The court has to decide whether the employment relationship is one of direct employment or not (see distinction in chapter 1.1 above). Thus, no numbers or estimates are available for bogus self-employment. In recent years, awareness of this grey area has risen and the Financial Control on Undeclared Work (Finanzkontrolle Schwarzarbeit -FKS) is working on specific statistics.

It's been over a decade since the "self employment" schemes have been brought to light, but there is still no actions. These schemes allow western employers to exploit people and avoid answering to the law. The same is happening in most other spheres of the economy where people from the new EU members get subjected to terrible treatment, low wages and other types of exploitation. There is no progress and there is no visible desire to solve these problems.

[Deleted]

First: Why does everyone think I hate their country?

Regarding your personal crusade against the EU, there's only one thing i can tell you:

"We are EU.
You will be assimilated.
Resistence is futile."

[Deleted]

"We are EU.
You will be assimilated.
Resistence is futile."

Even the US wants to get in on the act, begging for a "free-trade" agreement as seen by the Obama administration...

[Cybran]

Regarding your personal crusade against the EU, there's only one thing i can tell you:

"We are EU.
You will be assimilated.
Resistence is futile."

[Deleted]

Even the US wants to get in on the act, begging for a "free-trade" agreement as seen by the Obama administration...

Of course! Because "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us."

---------- Post added 2013-04-18 at 02:05 PM ----------

Death is so final, while life is full of possibilities!

... ok, seriously, i need to stop nerd-quoting.

...oh wait!:
"Death is irrelevant." XD

...i'm having too much fun, this has to be illegal.

[Deleted]

First: Why does everyone think I hate their country?

Don't know about any other countries, but you sure as hell make it seem like you despise the Nordic countries, that's for sure.

[Ravenblade]

My initial claim was that certain governments try to profit from the misfortune of people from less developed countries. There are numerous reports and statistics support this claim.

Fair enough. In this case however I don't quite think it would just have been the purpose of getting higher tax income. If a govt. had to choose between legalizing drugs or legalizing prostitution then I'd wager they'd gain more out of legalizing drugs in terms of taxes. The thinking is that most prostitutes themselves can't even afford private insurances so their income can't be stellarly high especially when we are talking about 400,000 mostly female prostitutes in a workforce totalling 44m. In my opinion the legalization was an half-assed job for the sake of having it done and leave it to other generations to work out the kinks because as it happens it was also done at a time where the govt. worked towards implementing the Agenda 2010.

I also do not believe they intentionally wanted to have an EU where different members experience states of exploitation quite the opposite. It's however the reality due to a lack of foresight or exaggerated idealism border-lining naivety, on both sides, that of the entry candidates and the EU. There seems to be the case often where Brussels is seemingly living in a different reality detached from the real EU itself.

First: Why does everyone think I hate their country?

Eh, I am not saying hate as I can't estimate the true level of antipathy from my chair here! But the peculiar emphasis on it makes it obvious that some are considered more evil than others even if the misdeed is the same. Not that I take it personally as I am very critical of my govt. and past govts. as well, it just makes it difficult to somewhat focus on the broader issue when it gets all torn away from the initial subject and then narrowed down to specific laws to a country which are never subject to serve as symbols of perfection as whole. It also gives the impression that one is just the victim and the other is just perpetrator of great crimes, a bit slanted to be honest.

I believe for instance that countries joining the EU should be very decisive about it and read the fineprints as well. They are not joining Happy-Rainbow-Land. They are joining Managed-Self-Interests-Land. At least in some critical areas that is. The EU does have a fair amount of promotional and sponsoring projects going on. I know a huge passenger bridge here is partially EU-funded, so are parts of the university here especially the labs and I know they do promote and sponsor science projects as well. But at the eco-political core it is pretty much a developing entity still. As I said there's been no case of precedent for it so there's going to be a lot of iterations whose results may still either be ultimate success or ultimate failure.

On topic: By passing the lax EU laws is extremely easy.
http://www.efbww.org/pdfs/annex%209%...20%5BEN%5D.pdf

It's been over a decade since the "self employment" schemes have been brought to light, but there is still no actions. These schemes allow western employers to exploit people and avoid answering to the law. The same is happening in most other spheres of the economy where people from the new EU members get subjected to terrible treatment, low wages and other types of exploitation. There is no progress and there is no visible desire to solve these problems.

Funny that you are quoting a brochure of a European Worker Federation! But I know people who were victim of that scheme as well and I have even helped one to get out of it.

The reason why they can be undermined is that a lot of EU laws leave the interpretation to the discretion of each member country. They are vaguely formulated and coming from a time where it was believed that every member would act in equal manner in full spirit of the intended goal of the law which however they rarely don't especially if it serves the national interest of having an attractively high employment rate.

My point was though that the initial claim was that the EU basically subsidizes slavery which is a bit far-fetched. While you could theoretically say that intentionally delaying the ratification process by most of the members effectively equals the EU promoting slavery and human trafficking it would not quite turn out that way on individual basis seeing that all countries do work against it and each country has issues in different fields requiring some serious work. On the other hand I do believe that these laws do require some careful groundwork because if these new laws could be circumvented on individual basis then there is much more at stake than a reprimand for taking too long.

The EU has to tread the fine line between "one glove to fit them all" and "everyone may be discrete about the implementation". They could try the first method if there was one single EU law enforcement as well but as of now there isn't and I doubt it would happen any time soon. So all they can do is hope every country indeed acts in the spirit of the conventions and charters they have initially signed and wait and then enforce these laws on national basis. So yes, it is not perfect and the processes and procedures still flawed.

And to go back to the topic itself: Unification processes will be full of flaws because of unforeseen events and factors. I can honestly say we should have given a lot things more time in retrospect, maybe waited 10 more years until re-unification, more years until introduction of the Euro and more years until the EU expanded again although I believe they did it under pressure of global reality which is that bloc-free states may eventually find a home elsewhere. Still it looks like it's all done at all costs risking the future of the entire zone or its cohesiveness in the long run. But the EU has to decide soon which way they want to go, at the moment it's all headed towards political union which would make it theoretically easier to enforce the same policy without any possibility of circumvention on all countries but that is what people do not want either. So what do exactly do they want?

[Cybran]

Don't know about any other countries, but you sure as hell make it seem like you despise the Nordic countries, that's for sure.

http://www.inquire-magazine.com/2013...ion-in-sweden/

Over the past two years at least 47 Cameroonians have gone to Sweden to work in tree plantation in the northern forests. They were all expecting to return to their families with enough money to pay off debts, invest and start a better life. Instead, most of them are stranded in Sweden, homeless, helpless and heartbroken. The companies responsible are now being exposed.

Why? Because I cite facts about the mistreatment of foreign workers in these countries?

[Wikiy]

Why? Because I cite facts about the mistreatment of foreign workers in these countries?

What you consider mistreatment, though, is simply salaries not on par with those who aren't immigrants in those countries. Are you aware that this is extremely hypocritical seeing as the entire Western and developed world, as well as any other European country, exploits the cheap work forces of poorer countries such as China? Every single item of clothing you wear was made for pathetic money, even by Bulgarian standards. My point? This is the inevitable product of capitalism. So is the exploitation of immigrant workers who are willing to be exploited in a given manner (such as taking smaller salaries than a non-immigrant would take).

[Deleted]

http://www.inquire-magazine.com/2013...ion-in-sweden/

Why? Because I cite facts about the mistreatment of foreign workers in these countries?

Why? Because of what Wikiy said, as well as the constant ignoring of others arguments. You attack Sweden instead of the companies that are being exposed and then punished once they've been by the Swedish state. Surely you cannot expect Sweden to become a Orwellian surveillance society and sacrifice the freedom of 9 million people so a couple of tens people won't be mistreated as long?

[Cybran]

Why? Because of what Wikiy said, as well as the constant ignoring of others arguments. You attack Sweden instead of the companies that are being exposed and then punished once they've been by the Swedish state. Surely you cannot expect Sweden to become a Orwellian surveillance society and sacrifice the freedom of 9 million people so a couple of tens people won't be mistreated as long?

You are trying to create a false dillema which is a fallacy.

What should be done is real laws that protect migrant/posted workers. Not the current ones that allow the mistreatment to continue. People have been abused in these countries for decades now and nothing changes, there is no real punishment for the explioters and no will to stop the exploitation. Why? Because it's profitable to exploit these workers and brainwash the public in to viewing them as lesser and "happy to work for 40% of the normal pay".

What you consider mistreatment, though, is simply salaries not on par with those who aren't immigrants in those countries. Are you aware that this is extremely hypocritical seeing as the entire Western and developed world, as well as any other European country, exploits the cheap work forces of poorer countries such as China? Every single item of clothing you wear was made for pathetic money, even by Bulgarian standards.

That is not true. The mistreatment is not only in the salaries that usually go bellow minimal wage. The abuse includes not paying them for long periods of time, making them sleep/live in terrible conditions, verban and sometimes physical abuse, etc. The list is extremely long.

As many of the reports/documents explain this kind of imhumane treatment is often the norm.

This is the inevitable product of capitalism. So is the exploitation of immigrant workers who are willing to be exploited in a given manner (such as taking smaller salaries than a non-immigrant would take).

No one is willing to be exploited. The root cause of the problem is deciet of the employers, lack of interest from the authorities and public in these countries. These people take loans and sign papers that they think will guarantee their rights. Once they reach they are stranded without money and knowing the local language. The locals consider them second class and do not care about the terrible conditions they are FORCED to endure. The authorities don't deal with the problem, because it solves the problem of cheap manual labor shortage. The whole scheme is crystal clear, but people still turn a blind eye and allow it to repeat itself.

This year it was Cameroonians. Last year it was Bulgarian gypsies. The years before that it was people from Bangladesh. The Western economies use slave labor and they always manage to find it, abuse it and act innocent when caught. It makes me sick to listen to the people benefiting from the exploitation that try to rationalize it and shift the blame on the victims.

[Wikiy]

This year it was Cameroonians. Last year it was Bulgarian gypsies. The years before that it was people from Bangladesh. The Western economies use slave labor and they always manage to find it, abuse it and act innocent when caught. It makes me sick to listen to the people benefiting from the exploitation that try to rationalize it and shift the blame on the victims.

Asia, Mexico, South America and some African countries are heavily used by Canada, the US, Australia, Japan and most European countries. Don't go around shifting the blame to Western countries, yours is a part of the cycle, and although it's not purely part of the core, it's not either purely in the periphery (same as mine), unlike the countries I numbered in the beginning of this reply (also, don't look at the map, it's 13 years old, and as of now pretty much all European countries minus Ukraine, Belorussia, Albania and Moldova are part of either the core or semi-periphery). Those are the true countries that get exploited, and they get exploited by your country as well.

[Deleted]

Oh yeah, Spain is another great example, as mentioned by a guy above. Spain didn't really exist until Reconquista, when Castillia, Aragon, Galicia, Catalonia etc. united.

Spain ended up united through a series of royal marriages (e.g. the king of León has a sole daughter who gets married to the king of Castille; the king of Castille is now the king of Castille & León, etc.). Oftentimes these marriages were forced as part of peace treaties (country A loses a war to country B; now the daughter of the king of country A must marry the king of country B; if country A doesn't produce a male heir they're screwed).

[Deleted]

What should be done is real laws that protect migrant/posted workers. Not the current ones that allow the mistreatment to continue.

No law allows mistreatment in Sweden. Next.

[Deleted]

No one is willing to be exploited. The root cause of the problem is deciet of the employers, lack of interest from the authorities and public in these countries. These people take loans and sign papers that they think will guarantee their rights. Once they reach they are stranded without money and knowing the local language. The locals consider them second class and do not care about the terrible conditions they are FORCED to endure. The authorities don't deal with the problem, because it solves the problem of cheap manual labor shortage. The whole scheme is crystal clear, but people still turn a blind eye and allow it to repeat itself.

How does this not happen within a national state too? Where people from the poorer regions and the country-side, sometimes even speaking a different language, migrate to the large cities, where they are completely uprooted and considered 2nd class citizens?
The only thing that changes when you have supranational states is the distance the migrant travels. The situations of defenselessness and abuse are exactly the same.

[Cybran]

No law allows mistreatment in Sweden. Next.

http://www.inquire-magazine.com/2013...ion-in-sweden/

“It is disgraceful that we have laws in Sweden that enable businesses to deceive their workers in this way, without risking anything. And this type of legislation exists in many other countries within the European Union. It allows employers to take advantage of people,” said Swedish journalist Ali Fegan who, along with Lars-Göran Svensson, brought this case national attention through an investigative programme on Swedish Television.

Asia, Mexico, South America and some African countries are heavily used by Canada, the US, Australia, Japan and most European countries. Don't go around shifting the blame to Western countries, yours is a part of the cycle, and although it's not purely part of the core, it's not either purely in the periphery (same as mine), unlike the countries I numbered in the beginning of this reply (also, don't look at the map, it's 13 years old, and as of now pretty much all European countries minus Ukraine, Belorussia, Albania and Moldova are part of either the core or semi-periphery). Those are the true countries that get exploited, and they get exploited by your country as well.

The problem is that exploitation is a state policy in Western Europe.

[Elegiac]

The problem is that exploitation is a state policy in Western Europe.

Right, because they have nothing better to do. *sarcasm*

Quite honestly, they're more concerned about international affairs and internal affairs to worry about migrant workers beyond their nuisance value.