Is ret actually that bad

[Incarnia]

People make things sound worse then they are. and should not be taken serious. Those players that say "Ret is Bad" Need to get good and play better. Having mained Ret for almost 11 years now, MY issue with Ret is the fact that.. Our mobility sucks ass! If you move at all, your dps is gonna be effected and that's how ret has been since mop. Ret is good if you are standing still. But if you gotta move? Whelp, your boned.

Edit: And there are a few other issues with Ret, such as cleave, but ret since we got Holy Power, has been more focused on Single target. Back in Wrath... God I miss being able to use Divine storm without having to use Holy Power... Was amazing. Back when Rets could cleave. I mean we can kinda cleave now.. but it's not as good other classes. Ret has it's goods and bads, but it's NO WHERE near as bad as people claim. Another issue I have seen through out the years of Maining and raiding as a Ret pally, is the fact that there are SO many fucking Ret pallies. Good luck getting a main spot competing against all the other retties.

Good rets aren't around in abundance, decent ones there are a few of but good ones? No, so if OP is a good Ret? I don't think he'll struggle much with getting a main spot, he might have to do some searching first though since as you say there are lots around and usually most guilds only got 1 maybe 2 spots open for Rets.

i can only speak from my own perspective, I wouldn't say Rets are "bad" as in they're broken and you won't be able to pull some decent numbers and hold your own - but I feel like they are bad when you look at the perspective of how they feel to play in BfA, and that there are other melee that currently are more fun and engaging. That does bring more dps to the table, that doesn't feel like they're running through syrup AND on top of that aren't completely lacking in regards to utility they can bring. If the OP wants to feel useful to his raid/group and want to save himself some frustration while moving, there's definitely better melee specs out there atm.

[Mashanerz]

what cleave lol

I'm trying to word it in a way that doesn't offend any paladins lol

Wake of ashe would be amazing if the CD wasn't so bad....

Compare it to a real DPS class like DH right now, it's comparable to eye beams with a couple of exceptions.

1) Need to talent for it
2) Does less dmg
3) Longer CD
4) Generates combo points instead of fury (if properly spec'd)

I think blizz could do a couple of things to help paladins, first and foremost would be lowering the CD of wake, even if it means reducing the amount of combo points it generates to 2 or 3. Or maybe figure a way to make divine storm not shit?

[Eon Drache]

People make things sound worse then they are. and should not be taken serious. Those players that say "Ret is Bad" Need to get good and play better. Having mained Ret for almost 11 years now, MY issue with Ret is the fact that.. Our mobility sucks ass! If you move at all, your dps is gonna be effected and that's how ret has been since mop. Ret is good if you are standing still. But if you gotta move? Whelp, your boned.

Edit: And there are a few other issues with Ret, such as cleave, but ret since we got Holy Power, has been more focused on Single target. Back in Wrath... God I miss being able to use Divine storm without having to use Holy Power... Was amazing. Back when Rets could cleave. I mean we can kinda cleave now.. but it's not as good other classes. Ret has it's goods and bads, but it's NO WHERE near as bad as people claim. Another issue I have seen through out the years of Maining and raiding as a Ret pally, is the fact that there are SO many fucking Ret pallies. Good luck getting a main spot competing against all the other retties.

To be fair ret is currently the worst performing dps spec in the game for Uldir Mythic.

[Kalisandra]

To be fair ret is currently the worst performing dps spec in the game for Uldir Mythic.

And considering how rough Uldir is on turret casters, that's saying something.

[Nightheart]

Good rets aren't around in abundance, decent ones there are a few of but good ones? No, so if OP is a good Ret? I don't think he'll struggle much with getting a main spot, he might have to do some searching first though since as you say there are lots around and usually most guilds only got 1 maybe 2 spots open for Rets.

i can only speak from my own perspective, I wouldn't say Rets are "bad" as in they're broken and you won't be able to pull some decent numbers and hold your own - but I feel like they are bad when you look at the perspective of how they feel to play in BfA, and that there are other melee that currently are more fun and engaging. That does bring more dps to the table, that doesn't feel like they're running through syrup AND on top of that aren't completely lacking in regards to utility they can bring. If the OP wants to feel useful to his raid/group and want to save himself some frustration while moving, there's definitely better melee specs out there atm.

I haven't really raided this expac, (Due to being burnt out from the expansion before.) Having played ret for almost 11 years now, I can't say much about ret for raiding. I know that we have always struggled with mobility and cleave, but we always did decent dps, this expac seems to be showing different. But I don't feel Ret is bad, I don't think any class is necessarily bad. But that doesn't mean they can't be improved. And I agree with your last statement, Right now Ret is under preforming in Uldir (But considering how difficult Uldir is) but, and this is my opinion, you should stick with a class that you feel works for you. That's how I have always felt with ret. It feels good when I play my retty, but I do agree. Classes should feel fun (I've really been enjoying fury warrior this expac) and I am sure OP will find a melee class that will fit them! =)

- - - Updated - - -

To be fair ret is currently the worst performing dps spec in the game for Uldir Mythic.

Too also be fair, Uldir is difficult and rough for many classes. but I do think ret could use alittle bit of a rework. I enjoyed Wraths ret (Before we got Holy power) Being able to cast divine storm without worrying about it coming into contact with anything else was nice. but like many classes this expac, ret feels unfun.

[Eon Drache]

I haven't really raided this expac, (Due to being burnt out from the expansion before.) Having played ret for almost 11 years now, I can't say much about ret for raiding. I know that we have always struggled with mobility and cleave, but we always did decent dps, this expac seems to be showing different. But I don't feel Ret is bad, I don't think any class is necessarily bad. But that doesn't mean they can't be improved. And I agree with your last statement, Right now Ret is under preforming in Uldir (But considering how difficult Uldir is) but, and this is my opinion, you should stick with a class that you feel works for you. That's how I have always felt with ret. It feels good when I play my retty, but I do agree. Classes should feel fun (I've really been enjoying fury warrior this expac) and I am sure OP will find a melee class that will fit them! =)

- - - Updated - - -



Too also be fair, Uldir is difficult and rough for many classes. but I do think ret could use alittle bit of a rework. I enjoyed Wraths ret (Before we got Holy power) Being able to cast divine storm without worrying about it coming into contact with anything else was nice. but like many classes this expac, ret feels unfun.

I was more so talking about the fact that ret is the lowest performing spec in every single bracket for dps except the Gods that get Retribution during wings. Then we are 3rd to last worst. No other class has it nearly as bad as Retribution does atm for raiding except for maybe Shaman who are getting some much needed love next patch. And it can't all be blamed on the mobility as the top spec across the board is Frost Death Knights.

[Deleted]

I'm trying to word it in a way that doesn't offend any paladins lol

Wake of ashe would be amazing if the CD wasn't so bad....

Compare it to a real DPS class like DH right now, it's comparable to eye beams with a couple of exceptions.

1) Need to talent for it
2) Does less dmg
3) Longer CD
4) Generates combo points instead of fury (if properly spec'd)

I think blizz could do a couple of things to help paladins, first and foremost would be lowering the CD of wake, even if it means reducing the amount of combo points it generates to 2 or 3. Or maybe figure a way to make divine storm not shit?

Honestly, Blzzard are beeing s**t with balance atm.

DH's and Warriors are just stupid in Mythic+ and PvP. The worst part is they are taking skills off the GCD or reducing it for warriors in 8.1. Things are bad atm, but are set to get even worse. Every melee that isn't DH, monk or war is gonna get benched. DH's in particular add survivability to the portfolio. It is absolutely out of hand!
They need to at least remove that debuff they bring. You can't have utility, burst and a debuff. WTF?! Or they really expecting everyone to drop DH so hard that they needed all that? Just the insane burst and AoE stuns are more than enough.
I can understand monks but the spell power debuff should honestly be given to Paladins.

[Kobor]

I have Paladin as main since the start.
Been Tank for a long time, but did dps duties too when had too much in raids.

In Legion had a DH alt, like her more, even now in BFA leveled a few weeks ago and have a feeling she is on pair with my Paladin already.

What I still like on Retri that he can off heal in M+ runs when Healers are away/dead/busy or simple don't care to heal up.
With DH simple died quite a few times, just because got no heal for like 5-10 seconds, and stepped away from mobs when was very low on HP.

Mobility is day and night between the two classes, feeling with Paladin like walking in deep mud.
Even can walk out from bad area with DH without any effort, while with paladin need the charge.

[Incarnia]

I haven't really raided this expac, (Due to being burnt out from the expansion before.) Having played ret for almost 11 years now, I can't say much about ret for raiding. I know that we have always struggled with mobility and cleave, but we always did decent dps, this expac seems to be showing different. But I don't feel Ret is bad, I don't think any class is necessarily bad. But that doesn't mean they can't be improved. And I agree with your last statement, Right now Ret is under preforming in Uldir (But considering how difficult Uldir is) but, and this is my opinion, you should stick with a class that you feel works for you. That's how I have always felt with ret. It feels good when I play my retty, but I do agree. Classes should feel fun (I've really been enjoying fury warrior this expac) and I am sure OP will find a melee class that will fit them! =)

Sorry for taking ages to reply, got caught up in something and boom then it was time to go to bed Anyways, It is possible to do some fair numbers, and our opening burst on ST bosses can be pretty sick. But if you did raid during Legion, take the frustration you remember feeling about our mobility during Legion raids (it was annoying alright, but you could live with it) and then amplify it about 5 times. Our movement is what it is, can't do much about it, but it sure is annoying and I've had times when the frustration made me almost want to stab someone :x
Then when it comes to our cleave and aoe we could do well in Legion, to a point where we felt useful and even strong on some fights - in BfA this is much harder to achieve, especially since we seem to scale poorly with gear so the more gear everyone gets it only broadens the gap between Rets and other DPS specs. So something is up, and I personally also misses how Rets felt to play in Legion when we had our Legendaries, our Tier sets, trinkets, the artifact weapon and its traits and NO GCD's ruining the flow :'( BfA Retribution feels like an outright downgrade in comparison to Legion Retribution.

I'm currently choosing between DH and Rogue atm, but haven't decided yet. It saddens my Paladin heart, but it is what it is. I too am sure OP will find a suiting melee class to play, it's just a shame that Ret paladin prob won't be it.

[Charge me Doctor]

I'd be curious to see your logs.

I'm just a filthy heroic raider these days, but I'm generally #1 in my guild (not a good measure of Ret, I'm just an ex top 20 raider playing with 2 competitive players, and 10+ bads).

You could be 10th, but if the spread isn't terrible and their %'s are also similar (i.e. 90%+) it's hardly the end of the world.

At this gear level he should be doing 17k-30k depending on boss/luck, which is on par with other melee like rogue or DH. Except Zul fight, for obvious reasons. So, if different between these 10 DPS players is more than 1k from each other - it's obvious that they've got unlucky or do something wrong. If difference is less than 1k - the difference is trivial then and it's fine anyways.

[Nightheart]

Sorry for taking ages to reply, got caught up in something and boom then it was time to go to bed Anyways, It is possible to do some fair numbers, and our opening burst on ST bosses can be pretty sick. But if you did raid during Legion, take the frustration you remember feeling about our mobility during Legion raids (it was annoying alright, but you could live with it) and then amplify it about 5 times. Our movement is what it is, can't do much about it, but it sure is annoying and I've had times when the frustration made me almost want to stab someone :x
Then when it comes to our cleave and aoe we could do well in Legion, to a point where we felt useful and even strong on some fights - in BfA this is much harder to achieve, especially since we seem to scale poorly with gear so the more gear everyone gets it only broadens the gap between Rets and other DPS specs. So something is up, and I personally also misses how Rets felt to play in Legion when we had our Legendaries, our Tier sets, trinkets, the artifact weapon and its traits and NO GCD's ruining the flow :'( BfA Retribution feels like an outright downgrade in comparison to Legion Retribution.

I'm currently choosing between DH and Rogue atm, but haven't decided yet. It saddens my Paladin heart, but it is what it is. I too am sure OP will find a suiting melee class to play, it's just a shame that Ret paladin prob won't be it.

UGH I hate the fact that Rets have NO mobility.. I really hope 8.1 gives us something nice. I agree with you. But I will always main ret pally xD I'm honestly enjoying Fury warrior aswell as other classes.

[Sandraudiga]

Ret isn't fine, its kinda viable depending what your end game goal is but its a long way behind other classes. We do good single target damage, but our cleave and aoe are bloody awful. The sad part is that some classes who do far better cleave and aoe also do comparable single target while having better mobility and utility.

It's not as bad as the doomsayers make out, but its also nowhere near as good as the white knights here stubbornly claim.

Do you want to push keys? We are good for anything up to and including the low to mid teens, but viability drops further and further behind the higher you go due to crap aoe. Our utility is actually better in M+ than raids and can come in handy far more often.

Do you want to raid competitive mythic? Melee raid spots are limited in Uldir, like the majority of raids. Ret doesn't really bring any useful utility and the fights where what utility we do have is mildly useful the raid usually has a holy pally and/or a prot pally. Ret does okay at some fights, but even in those we are just on par and not ahead. In terms of mythic raiding Ret is the worst spec amongst melee and overall for damage as well as boss only damage. Throw in sub par utility and its hard to really defend ret getting a spot. Some rets do of course, but in all those cases the guild would be better off with another melee of the same skill level.

Do you want to raid semi-hardcore mythic? Sure you aren't the best choice, but you are good enough and if you are a good ret you are usually ahead of the dregs that these guilds usually have. Not being offensive, this is the situation I am in. Regular orange logs was the only thing keeping me competitive against the blue and green logging players we had on our bottom half.

Do you want to raid heroic, or do anything else in game? Sure you are fine, you'll have fun.


There are two large limiting factor in Ret truly being deserving of a spot at the highest end content. The first is our garbage cleave and aoe, which there seems to be some rumblings about a fix in 8.1 but I will believe it when I see it. Too often with Ret the devs take so long deciding what to do that they end up being too late and just slap a really poor bandaid and writing the ret community an IOU for next patch that never gets paid.

The second is bad utility, both in terms of group utility and personal utility. Our defensive abilities are sub par, our normal defensive is our biggest hitting ability and our dps is tuned around it leading to needing to use it offensively. Then we have bubble on a 5 minute cooldown, once per fight generally so you can't really count on it. Same with bop, which historically is useful in one or two fights per expansion. I'd trade all three for divine protection again. Movement utility, well there was a wheelchair meme for a reason. We were faster than death knights in legion, but with the changes they got for BFA they've overtaken us since their movement abilities are on separate cooldowns though you could say barring talents we are equal for last place. Raid utility is again BoP which as stated is useful a couple times an expansion at most and rarely on the harder bosses. Wisdom is nice but nothing on par to shout, 5% debuffs, tricks etc.

Is what it is, ret is a massively played spec and if it was really good in raids the fotm rerollers would make it even more so. At least that's the only reason I can come up with for never being in the top third barring once or twice a decade. Still play ret, and will continue to do so as long as I play wow. Given I have a bit more than 3 years game time on my account that will be probably be for awhile.

[Wrecktangle]

A start would be giving us back Hammer of the Righteous so we have an AoE builder, and making it something we want to hit at 3+ targets. Righteous Verdict needs to proc from DS and buff DS. DS needs buffing so that it's worth using at 2+ targets, not the 3+ that it is now (or make HotR used for 2+ targets - anything to give us something to cleave with).

Ideally we'd get something like the empowered Divine Storm of WoD, so we have something interesting to do in our rotation.

The overall problem with Ret is that Legion took away something we've had since Cata - decent damage out to 20-30 yards. At the same time Ret lost a chunk of mobility. Now, in BfA they've taken away our cleave and AoE as well - something we've been strong in since WotLK. At the same time our defensives have been weakened, and our off-healing as well (though these are better than in Legion). Compared to Legion (and earlier) our rotation has been slowed down and large gaps put in it. So, in terms of game play the rotation is boring with annoying gaps in it, and the toolkit is seriously lacking in both PvE and PvP.

Now, in terms of damage output, at the beginning of BfA we were quite strong, landing big hits and putting out serious hurt, single target (AoE sucked right from the start though). However, because there's no synergy between abilities and talents, and also none between secondary stats, our damage scales really badly. You can see it quite clearly if you go to warcraftlogs and look at raid DPS or spec rankings over time - Ret starts high-average and just doesn't go anywhere while other specs overtake it.

Basically, Ret's in a bad place, and without some re-tuning (ideally it'd be re-design, but that's not happening, I reckon) it'll just get worse and worse.

Appreciate the post, but I was just trying to hit the easy low hanging fruit , if you want to really get into it:

• Ugh I really don't want HotR as Ret. I'd rather not have a shitty button that feels awful to push. I agree wholeheartedly that we need an AOE generator but it doesn't have to be a shitty button, it can be a function of a different mechanic.
• Agreed on RV needing to proc off DS (but then it becomes an absolute no brainer tier, and the others need to be buffed considerably to compete)
• Emp DS would be a fantastic edition
• I also agree that losing our ranged capabilities feels awful. I always felt that was one of the major defining characteristics of Ret was that we had that range on our attacks to compensate for our lack of mobility.
• Ret's almost always had a scalar issue. We never have good interaction with our secondaries so we never scale like others do. Haste speeds things up, but just shifts from longer downtime to more frequent shorter duration downtime. We haven't had a good crit interaction since WotLK tier 9 IIRC.

I wrote a "wishlist" as it were in a different post:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post50394861

I'm trying to word it in a way that doesn't offend any paladins lol

Wake of ashe would be amazing if the CD wasn't so bad....

Compare it to a real DPS class like DH right now, it's comparable to eye beams with a couple of exceptions.

1) Need to talent for it
2) Does less dmg
3) Longer CD
4) Generates combo points instead of fury (if properly spec'd)

I think blizz could do a couple of things to help paladins, first and foremost would be lowering the CD of wake, even if it means reducing the amount of combo points it generates to 2 or 3. Or maybe figure a way to make divine storm not shit?

While your analysis is true, your original statement that Ret has cleave (let alone good) is mistaken. We have quite literally no cleave. We have a ST rotation that every 45s hits more than 1 target a singular time. That's not cleave.

I haven't really raided this expac, (Due to being burnt out from the expansion before.) Having played ret for almost 11 years now, I can't say much about ret for raiding. I know that we have always struggled with mobility and cleave, but we always did decent dps, this expac seems to be showing different.

Ret didn't struggle with Cleave in Legion, WoD, or WotLK... I can't speak for MoP as I missed almost all of it and I don't remember Cata enough to comment.

[Meiffert]

Ret isn't fine, its kinda viable [...] It's not as bad as the doomsayers make out, but its also nowhere near as good as the white knights here stubbornly claim.

I think this is largely the problem and the source of disagreement. "Viable" doesn't have a clearly defined meaning, it's a sort of buzz word that everyone understands differently.

I agree with you on the majority of the points you made, but want to point out some things:

Do you want to push keys? We are good for anything up to and including the low to mid teens, but viability drops further and further behind the higher you go
[...]
Do you want to raid heroic, or do anything else in game? Sure you are fine, you'll have fun.

You will often notice how players from semi-casual mythic guilds say that you can play anything in heroic.
Players in cutting edge guilds will say that for more casual mythic raids (that clear half the instance let's say), you can play any setup.
Hall of Fame players will claim that for slower clearing guilds (that usually get Cutting Edge after some nerfs or at least after stacking Reorigination Array type of buff) class composition isn't something you need to consider.
Top 10 players will say that for world rank ~50 any class is "viable".

Do you see how the line of "viability" of suboptimal compositions is shifting depending on who you ask and how it's conveniently just near/below their level?
It's not even done maliciously, it's really natural when you think about it.
Because everyone is looking at the game from their own perspective. I played in a WR ~50 guild, we used the best setup we had available and it helped us to kill the bosses faster than we otherwise would have. Of course from our perspective (now that we are bringing alts on sub-optimal classes or even buyers), it's easy to think that guilds still progressing could use any raid composition and get carried by 10 stacks of RA + more gear and some nerfs to some bosses).

But that line of reasoning is flawed in the most simple manner: guilds still progressing now aren't us.
To be quite blunt, their players aren't as good. Sure, they have 10 stack of RA, but because they don't optimize their performance to the same degree, this only puts them at the same level we were weeks ago (rather than ahead).

What we should be saying is: We can do Uldir with any (half reasonable) setup with 10 stack of RA. That doesn't mean that currently progressing guilds can (or should be expected to) do the same.


It's similar with M+.
Rather than putting a static line at low-to-mid teens key level (which is obviously moving depending on many factors including who you ask), I think it's much more fair to say that weaker classes are 2-3 key stone levels below the better classes.
Some people can only do +7 on their ret paladin. They could probably do a 9 on a rogue.
Other players can push +15 on a paladin, maybe they could go to 18 on a DH.


For both raids and M+ the situation is really similar in my opinion: you can play a sub-optimal class (such as current ret unfortunately) at many different levels, up to and including very high mythic raiding and M+, but you should understand that you are always playing below your level as a result.
If you are holding your own and pulling your weight, it's because you are a better player than others in your group.

Is what it is, ret is a massively played spec

There are some objective reasons why ret is typically one of the weaker dps classes. For example only having one dps spec doesn't help. Rogues have 3 specs, which means that
a) much higher chance that at least one of the three is good in any given tier
b) option to swap and take advantage of different niches on different fights (you can play Assassination on Fetid and do good add damage with Vendetta, then swap to Sub and eviscerate Zul)

That being said I wonder if (and how much) the devs take into account that ret is one of the most played spec in the game across all levels as well as the fact that our community seems to just passively accept our situation despite being one of the weakest classes both in terms of numbers and utility.
(All this "we are fine, I top meters in pugs" or "we are not the best, but still "viable"")
Compare that to how warlock reacted at the start of this expansion and they weren't even that bad, just going from top 3 to mediocre.

[Kithelle]

Ret has just been so blah since Legion...miss WoD Ret so much!

[Holyshnikies]

People say how awful shaman is... but I say... just look at this graph.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19/

[Meiffert]

People say how awful shaman is... but I say... just look at this graph.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19/

Well both their specs are near the bottom in damage while having no raid buff, no defensive raid cooldown or other good utility, so it seems like an accurate statement.
Of course I agree with your implied point that paladins are in the same boat with only marginally better utility (still nowhere near good) and no ranged spec.

[Gilgaladus]

It's just not fun to play. Rotation is clunky with lots of downtime (regardless of how much haste you get), 40-50% of our damage is TV, AoE is downright horrible outside of Wake and our mobility is a joke.

First time in 10 years that I benched my paladin and leveled an alt.

I disagree. I never enjoyed Ret before BFA. I love it now. The new animations and sounds for each ability are awesome. I love tearing into large groups of mobs while doing World Quests and cutting them down to pieces. Very satisfying gameplay.

[Nightheart]

Appreciate the post, but I was just trying to hit the easy low hanging fruit , if you want to really get into it:

• Ugh I really don't want HotR as Ret. I'd rather not have a shitty button that feels awful to push. I agree wholeheartedly that we need an AOE generator but it doesn't have to be a shitty button, it can be a function of a different mechanic.
• Agreed on RV needing to proc off DS (but then it becomes an absolute no brainer tier, and the others need to be buffed considerably to compete)
• Emp DS would be a fantastic edition
• I also agree that losing our ranged capabilities feels awful. I always felt that was one of the major defining characteristics of Ret was that we had that range on our attacks to compensate for our lack of mobility.
• Ret's almost always had a scalar issue. We never have good interaction with our secondaries so we never scale like others do. Haste speeds things up, but just shifts from longer downtime to more frequent shorter duration downtime. We haven't had a good crit interaction since WotLK tier 9 IIRC.

I wrote a "wishlist" as it were in a different post:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post50394861



While your analysis is true, your original statement that Ret has cleave (let alone good) is mistaken. We have quite literally no cleave. We have a ST rotation that every 45s hits more than 1 target a singular time. That's not cleave.



Ret didn't struggle with Cleave in Legion, WoD, or WotLK... I can't speak for MoP as I missed almost all of it and I don't remember Cata enough to comment.

Legion was okay for Cleave, and Wrath of course didn't have an issue. But I Don't know so much about WoD.

[PaladinBash]

The issue with Ret is that good Ret players, rare as they are, will generally be in garbage to mediocre guilds (like mine) and will perform perfectly well besides bad to mediocre to mediocre players because the skill gulf is that vast. This gives the impression to a lot of good Ret paladins that Ret is 'fine' and 'you just need to get good' because their skill is what lets them crush the middling at best players they raid alongside. Ret is a terrible spec and playing anything else from Fury to Enhance to even Survival as melee makes you feel just how rough it is. That said, I'll always play it. You don't play Ret because it's good. You don't play Ret because it's powerful. You play Ret because you want to play something so badly made that no matter how good you are at it, you will always be challenged in a way you can't always win no matter what. THAT is what makes it a real and lasting challenge because even if you master it, you can still lose to people with less ability and effort put in. Is that frustrating? Sure is but if it didn't happen, you'd just stomp people and be bored to fucking death.

That said, I'd sure love another 3.0 so we can bring back the Day of Ret one last time.