Significant change to M+ gear drop rates in Shadowlands

[Orwell7]

For a mythic raider that would allow a lot more loot than today due to each dungeon having a lockout. So instead of 1 weekly M+15 to get the weekly chest with 475 you would have to do every dungeon on M+15 until you have BIS gear. Personally I would like this, since I have a lot of time to play. But we have several people in the guild with families etc that would fall even further behind in the power curve than they are today due to not enough time left to play the game.

I've included the "weekly" just for reference.
So at the "end of dungeon" (which is per boss, the same as M0) for the standard run, you get 460 ilvl for a +15, which is lower than heroic right now, but if you do it once, you get 475 in your weekly chest.
This of course can change with the first Heroic Week, as back in January the ilvl was capped at 445 for End-of-dungeon Chests, so maybe for standard we could get a 440 cap or so.

[Twdft]

I think the problem is that mythic raiding is locked for PUGs for months until enough guilds have done it. A lot of the playerbase is pugging raids and dungeons. And if there is absolutely no way to pug the first few bosses on mythic then the best ilvl you can get is from the weekly chest. This devalues raiding. People can't go into mythic raids because maybe their server situation doesn't allow it and they don't feel like heroic raiding because the ilvl there is so low.

But that's not a mythic+ problem. It's a mythic raid problem that should be solved by making it more accessible, not by trashing mythic+.

Aside from mythic raid not intended for pugs, I think a simple solution would be to acknowledge ingame lore (breaking the wheel) and let us do pve content cross faction.

[Boiled-Lobster]

I never understood that sentiment. Yeah MMO-C ist the place where everyone parses 99% and does +25 without voice communication... but in reality +11 which starts dropping 460 loot is pretty much the same difficulty as heroic raiding. You need to do +14 to start getting 465 which is a sizable step up in difficulty for the average heroic raider. I thought we all wanted better loot for harder content?

Anyone who can do +14 and higher has the general ability to go mythic raiding. And when you do the 465 from it means nothing to you. Again, M+ is inferior to raiding, how would it be defeated by it.

Weekly chest giving 10 ilvl more than regular drop might be a bit too high, but that is 1 piece a week and many people wait weeks for an upgrade because they get 3 wrists in a row.

Players who only do mythic+ instead of raiding mythic wouldn't have raided mythic anyway if mythic+ didn't exist.

That sentiment is easy to understand;

Current m+ design has infinite gear as it has NO WEEKLY LOCKOUT SYSTEM.

Whereas raids have a weekly lockout system.

Seeimg that a 14/15 will drop an ilvl equal to that of heroic / mythic raids ( 465 vs. 470 ) makes m+ raiding a way easier source ( again, on paper ) to obtain said gear pieces especially with the lack of lockouts.

Now theres a few factors involved;

- timed
- higher keys doesnt work well without comms
- people easily misjudge difficulty and think they can clear a 15+ ( read 16,17,18 ) with 440 gear
- pugs are.. pugs.


Points above make it inferior ( YES, I SAID THAT )
HOWEVER... if you have a team of friends is a whole lot easier to push keys and time them with a +3 or +2

Due to that, raids become vastly inferior to m+

[Wuusah]

But that's not a mythic+ problem. It's a mythic raid problem that should be solved by making it more accessible, not by trashing mythic+.

Aside from mythic raid not intended for pugs, I think a simple solution would be to acknowledge ingame lore (breaking the wheel) and let us do pve content cross faction.

It's all connected with itemlevels, my dude. A raid problem is a mythic+ problem is a pvp problem. If you can't mythic raid then m+ is the best path for you to get gear. If you aren't high rated in arena, then pve is the best path for you to get gear. And in that, M+ is easier to get said gear than it is in raid or pvp. Raid because it has artificial roadblocks and PvP because it's harder to have a high rating than it is to beat a dungeon.

[exsanguinate]

The power you got through mythic + to start raiding was too big in my opinion. In addition, you didn't really have to raid when doing mythic +, what was kinda wrong.

[Victoryrush]

It is a good sign that Blizzard are discussing the issue. Better for the health of the game. Better for M+ in the long run. A very large portion of the players like this game mode, Blizzard will do cool stuff to keep these people subscribed and enjoying the game.

The 11-13 "low" key bracket is currently superior to Heroic raids and PvP in terms of gear progress speed - it's fine to reduce the drop rate.

But Ion and his team could (should!) also consider stuff that really matters like the high key brackets 18-20 and 21-23, 24+ and improve the quality of the loot therein.

What makes people think that defeating the first few lame bosses 2/12 in each Mythic raid should be more rewarding (475), than, say a 20+ key? Or a 25+ key (465). Do these guys that engage 2/12 call themselves raiders at all? Should they be rewarded with some free 475 each major patch? What for - picking their nose? Please, explain.

They don’t need to be comparable to raiding, raids should remain the premier way to get gear in WoW.
s

In addition, you didn't really have to raid when doing mythic +, what was kinda wrong.

What makes you think that your way should be the way? What makes you think it is wrong not to raid? Are you telling me I am playing the game wrong since I don't raid? Very biased, aren't you.
You can try Classic if you want to raid. There is only raid mode there. Raid login, loot and logout. Rinse and repeat.

It's all connected with itemlevels, my dude. A raid problem is a mythic+ problem is a pvp problem. If you can't mythic raid then m+ is the best path for you to get gear. If you aren't high rated in arena, then pve is the best path for you to get gear. And in that, M+ is easier to get said gear than it is in raid or pvp. Raid because it has artificial roadblocks and PvP because it's harder to have a high rating than it is to beat a dungeon.

Raids might have artificial roadblocks like a weekly lockout but they also have a free loot table on par with the weekly chest, and the best end-game quality loot.

Maybe do not generalize because details matters about this "...it's harder to have a high rating than it is to beat a dungeon". I get your point, I like PvP and I don't want it be left in the dust, and to some extent I can agree it but it's just a faulty generalization. Is it harder to have 2k rating than to beat a 20+ Shrine of the Storm with fun affixes? Or is it harder to have a 2.5k rating than to time a 25+ key?

[Wuusah]

Maybe do not generalize because details matters about this "...it's harder to have a high rating than it is to beat a dungeon". I get your point, I like PvP and I don't want it be left in the dust, and to some extent I can agree it but it's just a faulty generalization. Is it harder to have 2k rating than to beat a 20+ Shrine of the Storm with fun affixes? Or is it harder to have a 2.5k rating than to time a 25+ key?

Wtf are you talking about. This is about the weekly reward. +20 or +25 doesn’t give better items. One +15 dungeon is equivalent to 2.4k rating. And a +15 that you don’t even have to finish in time is 100% easier for ANYONE than reaching 2.4k rating is. It’s not subjective.

[ShiroRX]

M+ in legion = A+
M+ in bfa = F-

Just scrap it all or make the rewards cosmetic only. Let the gear cry babies cry it out.

That's fine for your enjoyment but how about every other person?

[Relapses]

what's wrong with that?

also love how that was the only thing you quoted from my post

It's the only thing I quoted because anybody who actually thinks the way you do has an entirely meritless opinion on the subject. You're not going to play the game anyway, why the fuck should I care about your nostalgia-drenched ramblings about days gone by?

[NatePsy]

Looking at the recent news about M+ and the changes to M+ in SL.. If they go through as is, I might not even play it to the same extent I did in BFA honestly. It just feels like they're pandering to raiders yet again. It feels like it's going to go the way of "raid or die" again. The whole reason I played as much as I did in BFA was because there was alternative ways to get geared. If they're going to make it this ass to get gear from M+ (One item per run.) then I may as well just not bother. I liked having that option because I didn't feel like I needed a set schedule or time to set aside for a lengthy raid night. M+ offers that and rewards fitting of the challenge presented.

Now it just seems like they've dismantled and made M+ less attractive to give raids an even bigger leg up, even though raids already had advantages in place to keep it popular such as higher ilvl Azerite gear, traits unique to the raids etc. This change was wholly unecessary and if they really wanted to keep raids the popular option going forward, then they should stop being lazy and bring back tier gear and keep M+ as is.

Sure you can say they MAY be bringing it back sometime after launch but that's just it, they *MAY* consider bringing tier gear back, they haven't 100% confirmed it but wouldn't put it past them to implement tier gear at the last raid tier as a bandaid fix to keep player engagement up.

[Utrrabbit]

As it should be since you also have to grind through all the other bullshit like the legendary quest line, getting proper essences and corruptions, azerite gear, etc.

You literally have to not do any of that.

1. The questline can be skipped 90% and only takes about 20 minutes to do.

2. Azerite is literally the easiest gear they have ever put in the game to aquire.

3. All rank 3 essences can be bought from mother on your alts.

4. Corruption is easy to obtain too.

- - - Updated - - -

The change was made to offset the removal of titanforging to get people to continue to spam M+ which is fine but i think its a bit too extreme of a change especially when the relics for soulbinds will likely also drop from M+.

Lets consider the following, When running a M+ dungeon in BFA:
You hope that you get something
You hope that it is something you need
You hope that it titanforges(or corrupts)
You hope that it sockets

Now i don't know if sockets procing is going away or not but i know titanforging is but i am going to run on the assumption that it is also going away.

The new Xpac you will statistically get 2 pieces of loot per 10 runs. So you have to hope those 2 pieces are what you want and/or not duplicates. Lets say in the absolute Best RNG in the world that you get every piece you wanted off your first roll. It would take you 140 runs(assuming one of your pieces is the leggo 150 otherwise of if dual wield spec) with perfect RNG to get the gear you need.

Now realistically speaking it will be filling missing pieces that is fine but the problem is time raising keys levels and farming at that level is also going to discourage ppl from running lower level keys and doing M+ for loot feeling more like busy work rather than rewarding.

Hardcore community will mostly run it for fun/score and casuals wont touch it. 10 runs is a lot for a casual and hardcore will just naturally out scale the gear from raids. Theres no exaggeration when i say this change could potentially kill M+ for no reason. With this Change M+ will feel pointless to do and if they are truthful about less loot drops from toher sources then LFR will feel mandatory again.

If you are spamming mythic+ to gear your toon in SL. You are playing wrong.

Once that piecd drops. It is your BIS. Meaning you never have to step foot in that dungeon again. The only reason at that point to run mythic+ is the clout.

[Relapses]

If you are spamming mythic+ to gear your toon in SL. You are playing wrong.

Once that piecd drops. It is your BIS. Meaning you never have to step foot in that dungeon again. The only reason at that point to run mythic+ is the clout.

That's the fundamental crux of the problem I have with this change. Blizzard is telling us that M+ should not be used to gear. They are clearly moving the focus back towards raiding as a primary source of gear. My issue is the out of the frying pan into the freezer approach Blizzard often takes with changes like this. This change will definitely bring some of the uniqueness back to gear (that the game has definitely lost over the last two expansions) but it will be at the expense of the popularity of M+. Right now it's pretty easy to get M+ groups going because there's a mix of people chasing clout (io) and those looking to get an elusive piece of gear. Moving into SL, it's only going to be people in the former group. The other thing, too, is that higher keys will pretty much require people to be raiders to compete where currently it's possible to get a set from M+ and compete in M+. Current raiders are likely to look at this situation and say, "What's the problem?" because it effectively means no change for them. But people like myself -- who primarily play M+ and avoid raiding -- are seeing this as a pretty drastic upheaval of the status-quo. And for what it's worth, I'm willing to acknowledge that the current amount of gear dropped in M+ is too much. I just personally believe going from three pieces to one is a bit too extreme of a change.

[Dimad]

I disliked the fact that you could gear completely up to mythich raid levels of gear in m+. But at the same time i understood why it was the way it was. While being a raider, i may not agree with it. It also wasnt my place to be saying that someone elses path of progression shouldnt exist. It sucks that they are scaling back on that path. At the same time, raid bosses will be dropping less loot as well.

It was said above that without wf/tf being in the game cause they want loot to be loot... honestly how much farming of content is really gonna be done when your done?

[exsanguinate]

What makes you think that your way should be the way? What makes you think it is wrong not to raid? Are you telling me I am playing the game wrong since I don't raid? Very biased, aren't you.

Are you paranoid? I did not say anything of what you saying. lol

[Utrrabbit]

That's the fundamental crux of the problem I have with this change. Blizzard is telling us that M+ should not be used to gear. They are clearly moving the focus back towards raiding as a primary source of gear. My issue is the out of the frying pan into the freezer approach Blizzard often takes with changes like this. This change will definitely bring some of the uniqueness back to gear (that the game has definitely lost over the last two expansions) but it will be at the expense of the popularity of M+. Right now it's pretty easy to get M+ groups going because there's a mix of people chasing clout (io) and those looking to get an elusive piece of gear. Moving into SL, it's only going to be people in the former group. The other thing, too, is that higher keys will pretty much require people to be raiders to compete where currently it's possible to get a set from M+ and compete in M+. Current raiders are likely to look at this situation and say, "What's the problem?" because it effectively means no change for them. But people like myself -- who primarily play M+ and avoid raiding -- are seeing this as a pretty drastic upheaval of the status-quo. And for what it's worth, I'm willing to acknowledge that the current amount of gear dropped in M+ is too much. I just personally believe going from three pieces to one is a bit too extreme of a change.

Mythic+ was NEVER supposes to be a means to get fully gear. It was a way to off set the gearing process.

[antelope591]

I've been a long time member here but i post very rarely and thought this would be a subject id wish to post on. First of all https://raider.io/characters/eu/blades-edge/Steks that is a link to my current main character. I pug once a week 4/12 mythic and 2 other night i do some m+. Ive seen a lot of comments here how heroic is too underwhelming loot compared to m+.

I was just going to say this. In my old guild there is a guy, for the sake of argument lets call him Matt. Matt never does any m+, Matt is 480 ilvl equipped from just being carried through 4/12 M 12/12 heroic each week. Matt's cloak is still at 50 resistance because he doesn't like visions. Matt complains no one will take him to m+ therefore it's a bad system.

I've also seen comments here how m+ should only be cosmetic. Yes M+ is repeatable but to have a grp that will and can do 15s constantly throughout the week is quite rare for the average player. I DO NOT claim im some kind of god tank or anything like that. Im just saying that its far far easier to just do heroic once a week with guild mates. I mean i've geared my warrior fully in a couple of weeks by being a slacky pos and just tagging along as fury to an alt run. In m+ due to there being only 5 people mistakes are a lot and i mean a lot more apparent. Hence why people who are bad players get seen. Just yesterday in 21 SoTS there was this 12/12 mythic warlock that did absolutely terrible dps. After the run ive looked at his logs he's around 60percentile, whereas 7 dps from his guild's run are around 95 and they carry HARD. In their raid it doesnt get noticed so much.

As for the loot itself. WITHOUT titanforging or any other stupid system in place, doing m+ should be fairly straightforward rewards wise, or in theory they could upgrade weekly chest and run rewards from 15 to 20, because lets face it doing any run on time at +20 is sooooo much harder than heroic raiding, heck a lot harder than 50% of the mythic raid encounters ( first ones are easier usually ). Now there's no problem if gear is just gear. Nowadays gear gets throw at you all the time. Its so hard to get upgrades.

EG ive been waiting on a 475 shield with versatility for AGES and on my server there are no 475 boe trash versa haste shields to buy. People just gotta accept that if someone is a great player it doesnt matter if he/she got their gear from pvp , m+, or raiding. If you play at the top 1% you deserve the top 1% gear and to reap the rewards.

Your argument works both ways. I'm in a CE guild and we've had to sit players on N'zoth who had 3k+ IO but couldn't handle the mechanics/were doing too poorly as far as dps. Some of our best players are only 2k IO but could easily be 4k+ if they cared about M+. Lets also not forget certain classes like DH get free score just for rolling the right class. I've played with 2.5k DH's that couldn't even break 50k dps for the instance. At the end of the day we're all gonna have some bias depending on which mode we prefer.

[Relapses]

Mythic+ was NEVER supposes to be a means to get fully gear. It was a way to off set the gearing process.

Does that invalidate anything I just explained? Or do you just get a nice rush of adrenaline telling people on the internet they're doing something wrong?

[Malix Farwin]

You literally have to not do any of that.

1. The questline can be skipped 90% and only takes about 20 minutes to do.

2. Azerite is literally the easiest gear they have ever put in the game to aquire.

3. All rank 3 essences can be bought from mother on your alts.

4. Corruption is easy to obtain too.

- - - Updated - - -



If you are spamming mythic+ to gear your toon in SL. You are playing wrong.

Once that piecd drops. It is your BIS. Meaning you never have to step foot in that dungeon again. The only reason at that point to run mythic+ is the clout.

Interesting, never said anyone was. In fact this system punishes you more for not spamming it because you actually have 0 hope of getting loot outside of weekly cache.

Second you are wrong, the only reaosn to run M+ isnt for "the clout", its for multiple reason, including loot. By your own logic we should remove loot from all content and just run them for clout.

[munkeyinorbit]

Yeah I think I'm gonna pass on this expansion. 1 piece of loot per group? Miss me on that. That's like saying "Okay you five take a run down this street. There's a 20% chance you're not going to get hit by a car."

Screw that I just won't run.

That's exactly what is like. Running a dungeon is exactly like getting hit by a car. You nailed it buddy. I mean why are you even playing a game that makes you feel like you've been hit by a car if you dont get a piece of loot?

This change has long been needed. Running easier modes than raiding to get double the loot that can be spammed all week every week?

[Ztranger]

As usual with WoW, do whatever you think is fun and you get some kind of reward.