What problems do you have with Final Fantasy 14?

[Azmoden]

My problem is that it sucks, uhmm, yeah, that's it. No need for further explanation.

What an amazing observation! Especially from someone who probably never even played it!

Please tell me more, while I explain to you why the entire MMO community hates WoW elitist douchebags like you...

[draugril]

If someone dies in a WoW raid encounter, you can recover. If someone dies in a raid in FFXIV on higher difficulties, that encounter is essentially over.

Yep. You've lost an essential element of the choreography. DPS is more than a numbers game.

[Kalisandra]

If someone dies in a WoW raid encounter, you can recover. If someone dies in a raid in FFXIV on higher difficulties, that encounter is essentially over.

That does not necessarily mean that WoW's fights are more forgiving. If, for example, a FFXIV fight is over is someone dies, but it's unlikely anyone dies, it's more forgiving than a WoW fight where it's almost certain that enough people will die that the brez counter will run down.

I'm not saying that the FFXIV fights are forgiving, just noting that someone dying not being recoverable vs it being recoverable isn't necessarily an indicator of forgivingness. Also, there are plenty of fights in WoW where someone dying at the wrong moment will mean a wipe.

[Necromantic]

I think this is more of a state of mind thing than actually a thing ingame.

The positionals aren't really important. The effect still goes through. This was different in the past but nowadays you can just ignore them if you don't want to do them honestly. (At least as SAM/NIN.. I'm not playing MNK and as DRG it didn't seem that important either.)
At worst, just stay behind the boss and it's no different to WoW.
As Ninja, you'll hit 80% of your positionals that way.

As for the rest? Just assume you missed one or two GCDs throughout a 8 minute fight and wave it off... Not playing them literally means you are like

I could... but I don't like them at all. That was the beauty of Sam in Stormblood. Just run up to whatever you're fighting and attack it. It didn't matter what direction you were facing. It's just not a fun concept... to me. I don't speak for anyone else on it. I'm sure there are people who absolutely LOVE positionals and are reading my opinion and going "omgz wtf?!"

If you could do it for SAM why not fore NIN? Doesn't sound to me that you are min-maxer so I kinda don't get it. What I really want to talk about though is this part:

You'd prefer doing positionals as range over melee? Wtf? That's.... odd.

Is there a ranged class that you have to shoot in the back or flank?

[Echo of Soul]

I could... but I don't like them at all. That was the beauty of Sam in Stormblood. Just run up to whatever you're fighting and attack it. It didn't matter what direction you were facing. It's just not a fun concept... to me. I don't speak for anyone else on it. I'm sure there are people who absolutely LOVE positionals and are reading my opinion and going "omgz wtf?!"

I agree that there should be different flavors available. If you look at the ranged camp there are all very different from each other but once you get into melee and tanks they all have a lot of things in common. I'm hoping that the Reaper brings something unique to the table.

[Baconeggcheese]

Depends on the class. I find that there's a much larger gap between the most and least frenetic classes in their respective games. While the average might be slower in FFXIV, even at the cap, there is room for other classes to be much more demanding in their pacing. Whereas in WoW, everyone is more-or-less the in the same ballpark,

Based on logs, the fastest jobs in FF14 have around the same APM as the slowest specs in wow.

Its just flat out untrue that FF14's jobs ever get to the point of wows. Its something people need to stop lying to new players about as its not doing them any favors.

That isn't to say some jobs can't feel good still, or have those burstier moments of higher apm. But at the end of the day they're still slower no matter how you slice it.

[draugril]

That does not necessarily mean that WoW's fights are more forgiving. If, for example, a FFXIV fight is over is someone dies, but it's unlikely anyone dies, it's more forgiving than a WoW fight where it's almost certain that enough people will die that the brez counter will run down.

I'm not saying that the FFXIV fights are forgiving, just noting that someone dying not being recoverable vs it being recoverable isn't necessarily an indicator of forgivingness. Also, there are plenty of fights in WoW where someone dying at the wrong moment will mean a wipe.

It is likely that people will die. Guaranteed if they've never done it before. Nearly guaranteed if they've at least done some research.

[The Stormbringer]

The environmental graphics aren't nearly as good as character graphics, and even spell animations are a bit lacking. When it comes to character and monster designs, equipment, and mounts, they absolutely knock it out of the park, but everything else lags behind.

[Clozer]

People in here told me that the input lag isn't as bad anymore so I gave it another shot. And no - the input delay is absolutely awful. It feels like I'm playing with 2 seconds delay. Moving, attacking, and animations. Everything is affected by this "delay". It's literally unplayable for me. I can't see how anyone coming from WoW can get used to this. :/

[Kalisandra]

It is likely that people will die. Guaranteed if they've never done it before. Nearly guaranteed if they've at least done some research.

That's not relevant to the point I was making. The point is "someone dies and it's over" does not necessarily mean "unforgiving", and "someone dying is recoverable" is not the same as "forgiving".

- - - Updated - - -

People in here told me that the input lag isn't as bad anymore so I gave it another shot. And no - the input delay is absolutely awful. It feels like I'm playing with 2 seconds delay. Moving, attacking, and animations. Everything is affected by this "delay". It's literally unplayable for me. I can't see how anyone coming from WoW can get used to this. :/

Last time I tried FFXIV, WoW's fluidity and responsiveness compared to FFXIV was one reason I came back to WoW even though I really, really didn't like BfA.

[Necromantic]

That's not relevant to the point I was making. The point is "someone dies and it's over" does not necessarily mean "unforgiving", and "someone dying is recoverable" is not the same as "forgiving".

- - - Updated - - -

Last time I tried FFXIV, WoW's fluidity and responsiveness compared to FFXIV was one reason I came back to WoW even though I really, really didn't like BfA.

I wonder what format you and Clozer are playing on. I play on PS5 with wired internet, TV with 20ms input latency in game mode and the game is pretty snappy.

[draugril]

Based on logs, the fastest jobs in FF14 have around the same APM as the slowest specs in wow.

Its just flat out untrue that FF14's jobs ever get to the point of wows. Its something people need to stop lying to new players about as its not doing them any favors.

That isn't to say some jobs can't feel good still, or have those burstier moments of higher apm. But at the end of the day they're still slower no matter how you slice it.

Eh. We're both in the wrong, here. It's actually pretty comparable, erring on the side of WoW, but still with considerable overlap.





The only direction this discussion can head in is now subjective. I still say that Ninja feels faster than anything WoW has thrown at me. High APM in WoW generally translates to spamming whatever button is lighting up at the moment. High APM in FFXIV requires your attention. I'd say it's most akin to playing an Affliction Warlock during MoP. Timing is necessary. Positional abilities exist. It doesn't come down to spamming whichever button is off cooldown a million times a second to make sure they go through.

[Mojo03]

Based on logs, the fastest jobs in FF14 have around the same APM as the slowest specs in wow.

Its just flat out untrue that FF14's jobs ever get to the point of wows. Its something people need to stop lying to new players about as its not doing them any favors.

That isn't to say some jobs can't feel good still, or have those burstier moments of higher apm. But at the end of the day they're still slower no matter how you slice it.

FF14 fights are known to be movement heavy, have a lot of different mechanics, and all the classes have more button heavy rotations, except maybe healers.

So mentally it feels like there is more going on in FF14 than WoW is more accurately what I'd say people are trying to say when comparing the two.

[Rogalicus]

Eh. We're both in the wrong, here. It's actually pretty comparable, erring on the side of WoW, but still with considerable overlap.





The only direction this discussion can head in is now subjective. I still say that Ninja feels faster than anything WoW has thrown at me. High APM in WoW generally translates to spamming whatever button is lighting up at the moment. High APM in FFXIV requires your attention. I'd say it's most akin to playing an Affliction Warlock during MoP. Timing is necessary. Positional abilities exist. It doesn't come down to spamming whichever button is off cooldown a million times a second to make sure they go through.

Did you choose pre-raid CPM on purpose and compare it to end of expansion stats in FFXIV?

[Tyris Flare]

If someone dies in a WoW raid encounter, you can recover. If someone dies in a raid in FFXIV on higher difficulties, that encounter is essentially over.

That is definitely not true on some bosses during progression lmao.

Anyway with all this weird dick-waving about difficulty, the fact remains that wow has professional organizations (Limit, Echo, etc) playing the game to large crowds because of the competition during the race to world first. The fact that FF doesn't have that kind of presence tells you all you need to know about design and difficulty of the games. Different audiences in 2021.

[draugril]

That is definitely not true on some bosses during progression lmao.

Anyway with all this weird dick-waving about difficulty, the fact remains that wow has professional organizations (Limit, Echo, etc) playing the game to large crowds because of the competition during the race to world first. The fact that FF doesn't have that kind of presence tells you all you need to know about design and difficulty of the games. Different audiences in 2021.

I would argue that tells you much more about the marketing teams than the actual developers and/or design. The audiences aren't all that different, but the corporate philosophies couldn't be more different.

Although, I am curious as to how the FFXIV races go over with the Japanese community...

[TheRevenantHero]

That is definitely not true on some bosses during progression lmao.

Anyway with all this weird dick-waving about difficulty, the fact remains that wow has professional organizations (Limit, Echo, etc) playing the game to large crowds because of the competition during the race to world first. The fact that FF doesn't have that kind of presence tells you all you need to know about design and difficulty of the games. Different audiences in 2021.

That's an utterly asinine thing to say. Lots of people watching doesn't mean the quality of the content is actually good. Asmongold gets viewers all the time despite the fact he's a tremendous troll with shit tier streams. Reality television has massive viewership numbers despite it being garbage television.

So saying WoW gets lots of people watching proves that it's a better designed and more difficult game is ridiculous. Because WoW definitely isn't a more difficult game by a longshot.

[infinitemeridian]

Having put more hours in, the quest design...it's awful. 99% of quests are just going from place to place. You never have to go into combat or use your class, maybe 5 minutes of that every 2 hours.

I'm not saying WoW is super stellar, but at least it feels more "gameplay" oriented and not just a big drawn out visual novel. They also do try to change up the experience sometimes too in terms of questing mechanics.

And when I brought this up in NN, I get told that quests in WoW are just like FF only with a crap story...which begs the question, is the playerbase just deaf to all criticism? Because that would be another problem - the opposite of wow, where the playerbase just bitches the whole time.

[Necromantic]

Having put more hours in, the quest design...it's awful. 99% of quests are just going from place to place. You never have to go into combat or use your class, maybe 5 minutes of that every 2 hours.

I'm not saying WoW is super stellar, but at least it feels more "gameplay" oriented and not just a big drawn out visual novel. They also do try to change up the experience sometimes too in terms of questing mechanics.

This is true and the reason I don't quest unless it's absolutely necessary to unlock something.

[Wrecktangle]

Okay, according to the source you provided WoW had 300 devs 3 years ago and FFXIV had 264.
Unless math has changed since then the FFXIV team was smaller, not bigger. Maybe it's inaccurate since you used reddit as a source instead of official statements? I'd be psyched if FFXIV had gotten more resources than WoW recently so if you find something official please don't hesitate to send me a link.

Actually if we match the time period you provided (3 years ago) puts the dev team of FF14 at 302 total (~Patch 4.5 in house and external combined) vs. 300. However, we don't even know if technically WoW had 300. We know that the article linked (If you read it), didn't specify which team had 300, just that between the 5 teams (diablo, OW, SC, WoW, etc.), there are 100-300 devs per team, but if we go to the linked article for FF14 it says this:

Yoshida: At any given time there are about 350 people involved in the development of FFXIV. During busy periods that goes up to about 500 or so. If you include the management team it's probably around 650 people. GameWatch - 24 Aug 2018

But I don't want to go down that rabbit hole because that's not actually important. What's important is that we dispel this misinformation that WoW has some massive dev team compared to FF14 and that Yoshi P is strangled for resources. He has resources. Could he use more? Absolutely! Every dev team probably could whether it be bodies, talent, funding, technology, etc.