Endgame? [Video]

[Odeezee]

*SNIP*

you argue using semantics and Strawman arguments and directly compare mechanics in this game and lump them with those in other games.

you fail to realize that scaling means things get more difficult so whole "attrition" argument is baseless.

you claim because Rift did it the same holds true for GW2 yet GW2 has been developed more transparently than ANY OTHER game to date. when they talk about something it is IN the game and working as intended and they allow ANYONE who goes to a convention to try it out for themselves.

Difficulty aside, like all CYOAs, eventually we run through all the permutations alternate paths can offer.

so f*cking what? so what if you eventually run through all the different paths? is still does not invalidate them as being different and you act like the devs are not creative enough to make each path distinctively different both through design and mechanics. wow...how can you even try to use that as an argument?

Incorrect assumption. Never claimed this. Never said I expect this in GW2. Never claimed any dislike for the concept either.

How else can I say you are bringing your own baggage here?

let me introduce you to someone you might know...

What I am specifically concerned with is how well Anet can provide robust PVE endgame content on par with AAA MMOs such as WOW, Rift and SWTOR. In design and incentive.

since the major differences between these games as far as end-game are the ''design" and "incentives"...yeah what else can it be besides stats increases through gear?


you keep using Rift as a template for GW2 so yeah, you are blatantly overlooking the basic structure of dungeons IN GW2.

if you claim to have read that all the different paths are the same in Catacombs then i question your comprehension, but i am not going to restate what has already been said. be skeptical all you want but to claim that a wing in the same dungeon can not give you a different view of that same dungeon and the changes are insignificant is laughable and very disingenuous.

again, your reading comprehension fails you. my saying "you don't have to like GW2" does not mean you actually don't like GW2, just that for the sake of discussion it is not necessary.

fanboy fantasy? i deal in things that can be shown and proven, you deal in fantasy and bring your hang ups from other games and try to apply them directly to GW2. GW2 may not be perfect, but it's a hell of alot closer to my concept of fun.

if you were able to argue your points better instead of using conjecture and Strawman arguments, this might actually have turned into a meaningful discussion, but alas here we are.

[Deleted]

Nice trick Fencers =]. Good portion of scepticism, point of view changing and little bit of trolling (not too much so it doesn't sticks out, but enough make people run in circles).

It's easy to counter everything written in favour of GW2 cause GW2 fans are like flock without a shepherd - there is no official forum. All people have are some random interviews from conventions or a blog post once in a blue moon. I think this is the biggest flaw in GW2. Before WoW launched, people had some pretty crazy ideas about it on the forums, but because there were active CMs all "unrealistic" demands or "strange" visions were pretty quickly straighten up. With GW2 we have people running wild on both sides and without "official backup" it's hard to explain what GW2 really is.

Power plateau (no gear progression) means different kind of "end game" and in my opinion it's a good approach. Especially when you consider sidekicking system (which works both up and downwards). This is quite possible rout for every PVE-only character:
- level to 80 (while unlocking weapon sets)
- get you standard average top level armor
- get all the racial/elite skills (that will require some traveling across the world, doing different challenges and with sidekicking system in place all the zones will not become low-level-stomp-mode spam)
- complete dungeons in explorer mode, while collecting prestige armor(minimal difference in stats - if at all, more about the looks)
- collect achievements while performing different challenges
- hunt/trigger larger DEs with guild
- cooperate with other guilds to unlock even bigger events

By the time you will be done with most of those things, new expansion will be ready . For people who are not afraid of PVP there will be double amount of fun ;>.

[jvbastel]

Have to agree with Fencers here.

I'm really looking forward to this game. Spent a few thousand hours in GW1 both pve and pvp.
However, cynicism is a good thing guys.

We have not seen any full story or explorable mode dungeon runs, so it's impossible to know whether or not
they will be all that different. The explorables will be much harder of course, but they'll still be in the same dungeon.
Now granted, it's a much better system than the normal/hc/super-hc/ultra-hc stuff some games have, which is just lazy design.
At least ANET wants to change it up a little bit.

As for the Elite DE's, I'm also having doubts as to whether or not the difficulty will be high enough to be considered "endgame".
I can see them make some elite areas (there's one in Orr iirc) where you need organised groups to come out victorious, and I hope they make them hard enough.

Now for the gear progression. I have no problem whatsoever with running a dungeon multiple times just to get another look for my character. If you've farmed fow armor back in the old days, you know looks are worth it

Getting [Fiery Ragnaros hammer of awesomeness] with 2 dps more than your previous one is cool and all, but tbh,
there's not a single piece of gear that got me more excited to get than my male mesmer's Fow chest, that was just as good as an ugly droknar's forge armor piece

I hope there's enough to do at endgame, but Arenanet still has a lot of stuff to release to convince us all.

EDIT: As for attrition in DE's, scaling does not mean people can't just fight-die-run in again-fight-die ... till the boss is dead.
We'll have to wait and see what arenanet decides for these bosses and how they plan to address this

[Mif]

The amount of hostility around here lately is getting old...

[Odeezee]

I'm really looking forward to this game. Spent a few thousand hours in GW1 both pve and pvp.
However, cynicism is a good thing guys.

true, as long as it is relevant to the topic at hand

We have not seen any full story or explorable mode dungeon runs, so it's impossible to know whether or not
they will be all that different. The explorables will be much harder of course, but they'll still be in the same dungeon.
Now granted, it's a much better system than the normal/hc/super-hc/ultra-hc stuff some games have, which is just lazy design.
At least ANET wants to change it up a little bit.

i agree here, i just dislike it when people just outright say the changes are insignificant. i look at GW2 dungeons like a BOGO sale; buy one get 3 for free.

As for the Elite DE's, I'm also having doubts as to whether or not the difficulty will be high enough to be considered "endgame".
I can see them make some elite areas (there's one in Orr iirc) where you need organised groups to come out victorious, and I hope they make them hard enough.

difficulty is something no one can attest to and i think no one is actually arguing. some content was dumbed down, numbers can be tweaked before release, etc

Now for the gear progression. I have no problem whatsoever with running a dungeon multiple times just to get another look for my character. If you've farmed fow armor back in the old days, you know looks are worth it

Getting [Fiery Ragnaros hammer of awesomeness] with 2 dps more than your previous one is cool and all, but tbh,
there's not a single piece of gear that got me more excited to get than my male mesmer's Fow chest, that was just as good as an ugly droknar's forge armor piece

this is something that is a personal thing, some people will like it other will not. but to say that end-game incentives have to be this or they fail is where i get defensive as end-game has changed with every successive generation of MMO; EQ has outdoor raid bosses, WoW has instanced raid bosses, GW2 has outdoor raid bosses and dynamic and scaling content.

I hope there's enough to do at endgame, but Arenanet still has a lot of stuff to release to convince us all.

i feel like anyone would be doing themselves a disservice by not trying out all the different forms of content available in the game as the GW2 approach to something you loathed before may actually make it so much more enjoyable. take underwater content/combat in GW2 for example. it could be just what many people need to enjoy that type of content.

EDIT: As for attrition in DE's, scaling does not mean people can't just fight-die-run in again-fight-die ... till the boss is dead.
We'll have to wait and see what arenanet decides for these bosses and how they plan to address this

i don't know. it may be a possibility under a specific set of circumstances, but i doubt it will be something that can be readily repeated as that would mean there is more wrong with the game that just how DEs scale but also the mechanics that DE encounters use as well. take the TB video where he's playing a guardian, albeit a rather extreme circumstance, but they were overwhelmed repeatedly by the mobs. i can only see attrition working if a boss does not regenerate health, or if the additional skills do not mitigate/reverse damage taken by the boss or if they always get all the adds before they die. because the way i see it with a scaling system things can only get worse once you start dying. but we shall have to see how each DE scales to be conclusive.

The amount of hostility around here lately is getting old...

i am bored and i was looking for a great debate of the minds to pass the time and hopefully get some meaningful discussion going /sigh

[fishious]

The amount of hostility around here lately is getting old...

Cookies... cookies for all.

-.^

[Blznsmri]

Cookies... cookies for all.

-.^

Fuck your asura cookies! I'm on to you!

[Durzlla]

Well, looking at some of the answers to her are no better :S



Humans beings are mostly selfish creatures with personal gain as the primary motivator, and for some people the feeling of "winning" -- even over completely ridiculous things -- is enough to make it feel like it is indeed personal gain.

Personally I agree with Fencers's concerns and from what I've seen and read I doubt I'll bother doing the dungeons more than once. Getting only visual differences just doesn't feel much of a reward and thus there doesn't exist the incentive for doing those. Similarly as there is no feeling of progression whatsoever there is little reason to do them other than the "I'll run through this just to see how this dungeon looks like." Running DEs is the same thing; if there is no incentive to continue doing them I'll likely just ignore them.

Now someone is bound to jump in and start spouting the same old, tired diatribe of "well GW2 is not for you GTFO!" But well, maybe it isn't, maybe it is. I really don't care, I'll still buy it as I like how it looks like, and I wish to atleast experience the story. I'll just stop playing when I run out of meaningful things to do. Besides, there isn't anything better out there now or in the near future, so telling me to move on to something else is just pointless.

What could Anet -- or some other developer, if you just take the question in general -- do to make it feel like there is some meaningful incentive for me? I can't really say as I don't know. I find the feeling of progression to be the most rewarding and thus being the closest thing to an incentive as can be in an MMO, but it doesn't necessarily have to be gear-wise progression. What else could it be, that I do not know as I am only familiar with gear-wise approach to it, and I am still waiting to see if someone else comes up with a good alternative.

I totally understand what you're saying about how it doesn't feel like your character is increasing in strength, and now that i think about it, it bugs me a -little- bit not a huge amount though, maybe they could put some buff on you everytime you clear an instance or something for the FIRST time or something that buffs you? Or like an achievement where if you beat X last boss Y times you get Z stat increase, *shrugs* idk, i don't want to see the stat increases stuck on gear though, if we're going to get stat bonuses from completeing instances i want my character to get stronger, not my stupid armor/weapons

[Blznsmri]

Or like an achievement where if you beat X last boss Y times you get Z stat increase, *shrugs* idk,

That would practically be the same as stat increases on gear and the carrot-on-a-stick model WoW has. Just instead of getting phat lewts to increase your stats, you're getting an achievment. It would completely fuck up the balance over time.

[Mif]

Cookies... cookies for all.

-.^

/highfour

[Durzlla]

That would practically be the same as stat increases on gear and the carrot-on-a-stick model WoW has. Just instead of getting phat lewts to increase your stats, you're getting an achievment. It would completely fuck up the balance over time.

True, i was thinking more you kill X boss ~25 times you get +1 power or something so people can get their fix lol

[Deleted]

That would practically be the same as stat increases on gear and the carrot-on-a-stick model WoW has. Just instead of getting phat lewts to increase your stats, you're getting an achievment. It would completely fuck up the balance over time.

It would be very slightly different in the sense that the stat increase would be static and not change every time you change gear. For some that would be enough of an incentive. But you're right, it wouldn't be different enough.

But atleast Durzlla was throwing something out there. I'm personally still thinking about it and haven't yet come up with any reasonable alternative.

[Blznsmri]

True, i was thinking more you kill X boss ~25 times you get +1 power or something so people can get their fix lol

Yeah, but that would end up with hardcores and elitists farming dungeons to get an edge. remember, there are only 4 attributes in this game and any increase could potentially screw things up, and eventually people will fall behind, which is something that A-Net has said they don't want to happen/ do.

But atleast Durzlla was throwing something out there. I'm personally still thinking about it and haven't yet come up with any reasonable alternative.

Better looking gear (subjective...) or extra transmutation stones. Those are ideas. Cosmetic items for your Home instance, titles that cause NPC's to react differently to you, discounts from vendors in areas, Guilds and alliances "owning" cities like in factions...

[Durzlla]

Yeah, but that would end up with hardcores and elitists farming dungeons to get an edge. remember, there are only 4 attributes in this game and any increase could potentially screw things up, and eventually people will fall behind, which is something that A-Net has said they don't want to happen/ do.



Better looking gear (subjective...) or extra transmutation stones. Those are ideas. Cosmetic items for your Home instance, titles that cause NPC's to react differently to you, discounts from vendors in areas, Guilds and alliances "owning" cities like in factions...

OMG! yes! trophies for my house!! I would LOOOOOOOOOVE to put king adelburns head on my mantle piece >=D!!

[Deleted]

Will GW2 work for holding big hardcore PVE guilds together as in WOW, EQ or Rift?

Anets game design philosophy doesn't seem to be same as WOW, EQ or Rift where guild are often held together because of gear and if devs make gear more accessible then there is a lot of whining and several guilds falling apart. I have no reason to doubt that GW2 wouldn't offer challenge for dedicated PvE guilds in dungeons or possible some harder DE's, but if challenge and cosmetic rewards aren't enough then I doubt such guilds will last in GW2. Don't see that there will be any other progressing than you becoming better player or working toward some achievement/cosmetic reward at endgame, because else it would void what Anet have kept saying that you will be able to take break from game and come back later without feeling left behind.

[AlamarAtMMOC]

and stat progression, for any players skilled or not who figure out the fight mechanics, leads to trivialized content as when they get new gear they become more powerful hence making success alot easier. in GW2's system everything you earn will be a hard fought fight as your power stays the same even after you figure out the mechanics of a given fight and get the new cosmetic gear, you won't be able to afk or relax and let your gear pick up the slack.

And this is precisely why I'm worried GW2 will be too easy... Or rather, lack long term appeal...

As a gamer, I am at a point where, when I see a new fight for the first time, I consume it... Assuming I can get a full group of similarily skilled people, GW2 content offers very little challenge... We'll learn the game, learn the character, and then any 'new' content thrown at us won't require any adaptation. There will be 'void' zones not to stand in, attacks to dodge/avoid, etc... But it's all the same fight, over and over with different boss models...

At least with stat progression, there is progression, albeit forced/fake... Perception is everything, and the illusion that you will down a boss this week, because of last weeks upgrades, keeps people playing...

-Alamar

[Durzlla]

And this is precisely why I'm worried GW2 will be too easy... Or rather, lack long term appeal...

As a gamer, I am at a point where, when I see a new fight for the first time, I consume it... Assuming I can get a full group of similarily skilled people, GW2 content offers very little challenge... We'll learn the game, learn the character, and then any 'new' content thrown at us won't require any adaptation. There will be 'void' zones not to stand in, attacks to dodge/avoid, etc... But it's all the same fight, over and over with different boss models...

At least with stat progression, there is progression, albeit forced/fake... Perception is everything, and the illusion that you will down a boss this week, because of last weeks upgrades, keeps people playing...

-Alamar

Sir, this is not WoW or some other game with a holy trinity, because of this GW2 can be far more creative then the other games that -do- have it. In games with the holy trinity you can't do mechanics that require every member of the group being off on their own, or anything around the lines of sending one player off on their own in a fight. There's probably many other things they can add that i can't even think of, especially with the whole environmental weapons and such, maybe we'll get a fight where it involves around the group trading off an environmental weapon that's the only thing that can deal damage to the boss but makes you lose health over time (i'd imagine it'd be a % of your total health so those profs with less wont be underpowered).

Point being, they have a lot more room to be creative then a game where at least X people have to be in Y role or the encounters impossible, cause we all know games with a holy trinity wouldn't dare put a dungeon/raid in where you don't need a tank or healer

[Vaelkyri]

The real big Gw2 guilds will be the WvWvW ones. PVE, maybe a few interested in pushing the encouter scaling to the limit~ but probably wont be as big a factor.

[AlamarAtMMOC]

The amount of hostility around here lately is getting old...

I'm seeing it all from two posters, maybe three... Once person writes out a well thought argument/response, and these two others rage in, throwing insults, adding fake arguments, etc...

Interestingly, they're both very typical debating techniques, and I'm enjoying half the debate : )

-Alamar

---------- Post added 2011-11-03 at 03:37 PM ----------

Sir, this is not WoW or some other game with a holy trinity, because of this GW2 can be far more creative then the other games that -do- have it. In games with the holy trinity you can't do mechanics that require every member of the group being off on their own, or anything around the lines of sending one player off on their own in a fight. There's probably many other things they can add that i can't even think of, especially with the whole environmental weapons and such, maybe we'll get a fight where it involves around the group trading off an environmental weapon that's the only thing that can deal damage to the boss but makes you lose health over time (i'd imagine it'd be a % of your total health so those profs with less wont be underpowered).

Point being, they have a lot more room to be creative then a game where at least X people have to be in Y role or the encounters impossible, cause we all know games with a holy trinity wouldn't dare put a dungeon/raid in where you don't need a tank or healer

So is your argument that the holy trinity stifles creativity? Because I have seen some pretty fancy fights involving this 'holy trinity' that so many GW2 fans seem to think is the 'second coming'...

You're saying that GW2 'can' be more creative, and that some options open up because of the lack of a healer/tank centric requirement for boss fights... I say that you're right... A-Net can be creative, and come up with some neat fights that don't rely on the tried-and-true, but I have yet to see it... And it doesn't mean that trinity based content isn't creative or that non-trinity content is not restricted...

-Alamar

[Malthurius]

So is your argument that the holy trinity stifles creativity? Because I have seen some pretty fancy fights involving this 'holy trinity' that so many GW2 fans seem to think is the 'second coming'...

You're saying that GW2 'can' be more creative, and that some options open up because of the lack of a healer/tank centric requirement for boss fights... I say that you're right... A-Net can be creative, and come up with some neat fights that don't rely on the tried-and-true, but I have yet to see it... And it doesn't mean that trinity based content isn't creative or that non-trinity content is not restricted...

-Alamar

That big undead dragon that I can't get the name right now (Whenever I try to search his name it comes up with tequila) is a good example of a good fight that has no focus on a single person healing tanking or doing damage. And there are so many things going on in the fight that you could do the fight 4 or 5 different times and not do the same thing you did last time. Or you could try to do everything, blow up bone walls, kill creepers, protect mechanics, attack the dragon, repair the cannons, rez players and npcs. I think it's a very creative fight that doesn't rely on the tried and true at all.

On top of that, we've only seen 2 fights in the game that are that big? Or at least people have played 2, that one and the shatterer. We haven't really seen anything from 5-man dungeons for the most part except for a rather poor video of 5 people just doing stuff in an enclosed space, which really doesn't show anything new or interesting.

Yes, being held to the holy trinity can be restrictive to creating content. With the holy trinity you can't make truely dynamic events that are always challenging because you have to take into consideration that a tank might not be there, or a healer. If the holy trinity isn't there, you can make content way more difficult because you don't have to design it around: This is only going to be possible if you have a tank with you, or a healer. Instead you can just make difficult encounters around: Ok, people are here, they can do this. Or, there are 14 thieves here, they can do this.

Enemies don't need threat tables because no one is going to be tanking an enemy, you can do a lot more with a fight just without that restriction alone. Yes, you can be creative when designing a fight with the trinity, I'm not denying that, Blizzard has made plenty of good fights that are different and fun in their own way, but not having the trinity just allows for more freedom, and in return, more room for creativity.