I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

**Tomana** · 2012-09-18, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Krato

Suck my balls casuals, yes you pay for the game but doesnt mean you should see all, i mean 90% of you are shit crap garbage players.

What kind of reaction do you expect to gather with a start like that?

**Gurbz** · 2012-09-18, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by zeophor

The problem is that there cannot be real progression and shortcuts at the same time. To get the TBC style progression feel, there needs to be only one way to kill a boss, only one way to get over the challenge. You just can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm advocating difficulty modes to be removed from progression content. I'm not saying there cannot be separate raids that are accessible and provide casual gaming for people who do not like skill based progression raiding. Put all the lore and big bosses in storymode LFR with gear and level scaling so that anyone can experience it regardless of their level or gear, and in addition put in TBC style raids for raiders in completely separate instances.

Hmmm. Still not completely a fan, but if Blizzard was going to put TBC style progression raiding back into the game, I could at least live with such a setup.

**Tomana** · 2012-09-18, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by zeophor

and in addition put in TBC style raids for raiders in completely separate instances.

Won't happen - no one in its right money will put money in content for 5% of people while one can put money into content for the remaining 95%.
Also, the TBC instances weren't difficult by themselves, it's the stupid lack of catchups and attunements that messed it all up.

**vesseblah** · 2012-09-18, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Gurbz

If they kept everything in the system exactly like it is now (including 5-mans and other mechanics to "catch-up" people that have fallen behind) but instead now require each successive raid to be cleared before you can move on to the next, I would be completely on board with that system.

Originally Posted by zeophor

The problem is that there cannot be real progression and shortcuts at the same time.

I'm relatively hardcore raider, and I like the catch-up. It means I can faceroll all my alts through the content I've already farmed to death on my main and am sick and tired of to get to the juicy bits that are current content. If you don't want to use it, the don't. But you also have no right to say anybody else they can't use it either.

Don't either of you dare to say you would have rather done ToC for another 20 times on your alts instead of skipping straight to ICC, because you'd be big fat liars.

Originally Posted by Gurbz

The only other thing I would ask for is to drop the asinine requirement that people clear normal before gaining access to heroic.

Ulduar came out with heroic modes available on day one. Exactly one guild in top20 list even bothered to try those (Inner Sanctum). Everybody else from Ensidia to Paragon chose the easy mode.

Originally Posted by Gurbz

Edit: We can get rid of the progressive nerfs to instances too. They are mostly unnecessary with the introduction of LFR. There are three difficulties available. Pick one, get it done in that difficulty, or drop down to the next lower.

Blue posts explained this just few days ago. They are nerfing based on statistics, and after every 5% nerf saw a massive increase in raiding compared to previous weeks because more guilds were able to clear the content. The nerfs are needed, regardless of if you want it or not.

The truth is that if you can do the raid without nerfs, good for you. If you can't, then you're just part of the casual scrub crowd that needs the nerfs. MoP comes with FoS attached on clearing the raids with nerf turned off, good luck with it.

Originally Posted by zeophor

I'm advocating difficulty modes to be removed from progression content. I'm not saying there cannot be separate raids that are accessible and provide casual gaming for people who do not like skill based progression raiding. Put all the lore and big bosses in storymode LFR with gear and level scaling so that anyone can experience it regardless of their level or gear, and in addition put in TBC style raids for raiders in completely separate instances.

This can't be so damn hard to understand for you after it's been said about 200 times on this thread: Neither Blizzard nor anybody else can justify the cost or catering to 1% of customers if prices are the same for everybody, therefore it will never happen.

The only way this could happen is if Blizzard would have two tiered pricing model: people who want exclusive content sign up for yearly $5000 contract payed upfront. With 10k such customers they might be able to make special raids for those 10k people 3-4 times per year.

Deleted · 2012-09-18, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by vesseblah

This can't be so damn hard to understand for you after it's been said about 200 times on this thread: Neither Blizzard nor anybody else can justify the cost or catering to 1% of customers if prices are the same for everybody, therefore it will never happen.

You keep saying that, yet provide no reason why. You are aware that this is exactly what they did during the time WoW became one of the most successful games ever, right?

Deleted · 2012-09-18, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by zeophor

You keep saying that, yet provide no reason why. You are aware that this is exactly what they did during the time WoW became one of the most successful games ever, right?

Not that the vast playerbase actually took part in any of that content, meaning it's not relevent or anything.

Even if you are right, it doesn't matter. Blizzard don't agree with you. End of story.

**walbomb** · 2012-09-18, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by zeophor

You keep saying that, yet provide no reason why. You are aware that this is exactly what they did during the time WoW became one of the most successful games ever, right?

So you're saying WoW became one of the most successful games ever because of the raid design used by 5% (or whatever the figure is) of the player base? So the other 95% paid and logged on for what exactly?

**vesseblah** · 2012-09-18, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by zeophor

You are aware that this is exactly what they did during the time WoW became one of the most successful games ever, right?

Blizzard copied EQ at the start, including the ridiculous hardcore raiding model which was what every MMO did before. But the reason they got big was because WoW is easier than EQ.

After WoW had robbed all players from EQ and SWG, the only way to grow was to make the game even less hardcore than before.

Publicly traded companies such as Activision-Blizzard needs growth to keep investors happy.

1+1=2

The game must be more accessible than before with every passing year to widen the potential playerbase. This is basic economics.

Understood?

**Osmeric** · 2012-09-18, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by zeophor

You keep saying that, yet provide no reason why. You are aware that this is exactly what they did during the time WoW became one of the most successful games ever, right?

The invalidity of your post hoc inference has been demonstrated by subsequent events. The question at this point is not if you are wrong, but how you are wrong. I suspect during BC the growth in subs masked considerable churn in the non-raiding population.

---------- Post added 2012-09-18 at 09:34 PM ----------

Originally Posted by walbomb

So you're saying WoW became one of the most successful games ever because of the raid design used by 5% (or whatever the figure is) of the player base? So the other 95% paid and logged on for what exactly?

I imagine he thinks they spent all their time swooning at the feet of the raiders.

**vesseblah** · 2012-09-18, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by Osmeric

I imagine he thinks they spent all their time swooning at the feet of the raiders.

Speaking from personal experience, I was this -> <- close to quitting the game at the end of vanilla because raids were inaccessible and I was bored to death with the T1 content. I had picked up the game because some IRL friends were explaining and showing raids, but got disillusioned really fast when I realized I could never catch up and play the same raids as they do because of the massive gear farming required to go up in tiers in vanilla.

What made me stay was one little bit of information from the imminent TBC release, the promise of gear reset which would level the playing field again between those who started on day one and those who started year later.

**Lethey Alexandros** · 2012-09-18, 09:42 PM

Hmm this thread gives me mixed feelings. While I do think it is great that everyone gets to see the contents, I do feel that Raiders are entitled to something that can distinguish them as being the mirrior calibur to high end PVPers. On a whole PvE content gets nerfed over and over again till nearly everyone has completed it which makes those cool heroic raid titles about as meaningful as a holiday title while PVP still remains decisively tiered with varied levels of skill and achivements/titles to reflect it.

Deleted · 2012-09-18, 09:42 PM

One detail, Everquest and everyother mmo back then never crossed 500k subs.
EQ2 if my memory doesnt elude me seriously reached 400k and was considered success...It went live months only before WoW.
After that wow launched and rewrote the meaning of the word success.

For the record wow caused only a temp loss to EQ subs, since that game was up until recently, a very steady mmo platform with 350k subs average.
So you facts are not so...solid.
Infact wow widened the playerbase of mmo RPG.

Also, wow raids, were not about the 5% of the playerbase ever.
Proof to that are the 300000 people that watched the dragon soul race back at end spring, and and the 13k people that watched Kungen eating sushi, with the label above him "Kungen is trying wow".

But what do you know about marketing.
You only know what blizzard says. And blizzard says that succesfull content is the one that every customer can visit, even if it has to be so trash down that it isnt a worth mentioning experience.
In the mean time, blizzard lost 3 million subs...

**vesseblah** · 2012-09-18, 09:46 PM