World First Race:

[Deleted]

Gratz Paragon world first as expected, regardless of raid size whatever yous passed the finish line first.

incoming rage expected

[RollTide]

I don't think anyone cares about 10m. I know I don't. Vaults HC aren't cleared yet if 25m isn't cleared, as far as I'm concerned.

This, and the fact is the tier isn't even half done. Nobody wins yet. At best theyve won the first leg of a triathlon that will be increasing in difficulty in the next two legs.

[Deleted]

Envy 4/6 (25)

[Orange Joe]

I don't think anyone cares about 10m. I know I don't. Vaults HC aren't cleared yet if 25m isn't cleared, as far as I'm concerned.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...e-World-First-

Over half the player base here disagrees with you.

[Deleted]

people never had before, the one who beat it first was always accepted as the winner barring exploits why are people letting time zone differences matter now?

Because a 24/48 hour head start on a race that was almost over before the Taiwanese and Korean servers started isn't fair.

[Deleted]

I don't think anyone cares about 10m. I know I don't. Vaults HC aren't cleared yet if 25m isn't cleared, as far as I'm concerned.

Regardless of raid size if my group beats your group to the end objective my team gain WF. there is only one objective and if A beats B, A wins its simple. If there was diff achis then fair enough, two race's is fine but there isnt so get over the 10v25 debate sure there is differences but there is one objective and it has been claimed deal with it

[TJ]

No they wouldn't.

If they had their full roster, yes.. yes they would.

---------- Post added 2012-10-12 at 01:59 AM ----------

I don't think anyone cares about 10m. I know I don't. Vaults HC aren't cleared yet if 25m isn't cleared, as far as I'm concerned.

Same, I only care about 25, just because Paragon are 10 man doesn't change anything.

Expected Envy to do better if I'm honest, obviously doing very well but I thought they'd be very similar to Method.

[Deleted]

There's a really simple explanation as to why Paragon is now the best 10m group when they were (arguably) the best 25m group.

Divide paragon's guild as a 25m guild into groups of tanks, healers, and dps. Now rank them.

Tanks: Best tank, 2nd best tank, 3rd best tank.

Healers: Best healer, 2nd best healer, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, (7th).

DPS: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17.

Now what do they do as a 10 man group? They take the 2 best tanks, the 2-3 best healers, and the 5-6 best dps. The average skill of a 10m group is always going to be higher than a 25m group of the same guild. That's just how math works.

Thus assuming 10m and 25m are tuned appropriately, paragon should actually be performing BETTER (comparatively to other 10m guilds) than they did when they were 25m. Lo and behold, that is what's happening right now.

That's basically all it is.

Nice work!
You thought you re defending 10man while instead you re describing why this model destroyed raiding
Cherry pick once, "the chosen ones" don't want to look back
Cherry pick twice, the "abandoned ones, start to rage"
Cherry pick third time, the "chosen ones" are now alone.
Congrats, another 10 man added on the pile.

THIS, the cherry picking should not be allowed in the system in the first place.
There should not be a system where "the path of least resistance" gets no penalties, so the other option stays viable.

Regarding Paragon, yep, they worked hard to claim no 1 before heroics started.
As any serious 25 man that wants to claim world first did.
The difference is, that you people cannot conceive that this is the way things should work.

You consider fair a system that
a 10 man group,
with random setup,
10-11 ppl roster
and a single full normal mode clear first week raid is out, stands a chance to claim world first....

Wich is a reasoning similar to the "opinion" that vast majority of people prefers 10 man, because vast majority of people raids 10 man!
Disregarding completely the raiding model.

In the same way you disregard completely that 25s strugling for world first, did everything in their power to prepare for the race before the race start.
Vodka had 74 toons in wow progress with 6/6 normal modes clear!
Paragon had 35 toons with the same feat.
Why shouldn't other 10s have to do the same?

Paragon did a different preparation for 10 man race, and has proven how the content can be defeated in 10 man.

And i repeat, if Paragon wasnt around, the outcry for overtuned 10 man content would flood the forums by now.
Now, since Paragon did it with the second 10 man stucked at 2/6, you have to suck it, simple as that

[JimmyMcNulty]

Expected Envy to do better if I'm honest, obviously doing very well but I thought they'd be very similar to Method.

Envy's doing quite well don't you think? speedwise they're ahead of BL/Vodka and regarding Method.....lets just say they were a bit "lucky"

[Theiea]

Vodka is now 5/16H.

[Tekloth]

Actually your logic makes no sense, they went 25man on normal to gear the main 10 for heroic in 2raids. They gave all loot to the 10man group in the runs. They had guildies who couldn't raid 20hours a day, so asked them to raid that one evening to gear them.
The logic I said, was that in comparision, 25man guild's would've had to done treble the runs to acquire gear level equal to theirs. Thats why they cleared so much faster than the other 10mans.

Well yeah, considering what a cockblock HC Gara'jal currently is on 10man they needed the gear to get past him. Otherwise they probably might've had to wait a full reset for gear good enough to drop him dead.
Out of 151 10man guilds that have killed HC Feng, only 1 guild has killed HC Gara'jal. Talk about a balanced boss. It's T11 all over again! /tinfoilhat

[Repefe]

In the top raiding scene the race for world first clear is still going on and the 10m kills don't mean shit. Paragon is out of the race as long as they do 10m raiding and I couldn't care less about whatever they manage to kill if they can't handle the logistics of a 25m guild.

You make it sound like 25 man are the skilled players and 10 man are not when the only difference between the two raid sizes is organisation. You were able to assemble 25 good players instead of 10 .... you are a superstar.

[Haizer]

So it's a 5 year old source then? How sure are you it's still in place? Especially if logic suggests they should work on 10 man first since it's the primary format for their playerbase?

Logic suggests they will continue making the raids by how the first few to clear it will see it. They can make adjustments on the fly from there to 10m. Especially considering right now 10m Gara'jal is bugged while 25man is not, that says 25m is more ironed out than 10m is. Which again going by logic, says they balanced 10m off of 25m.

Oh, now I get it! Oh wait, no, I asked for an explanation and you failed to provide and instead decided to insult, so I'm still lost. Good job.

It was quite easy to understand, and you failed to do that. Also I didn't insult you, I just face palmed because you couldn't put 2 and 2 together. Good job.

I think I do have a grasp on statistics, larger sample sizes here just give you better averages, which is all they're using in their calculations. Any standard sample size close to 1000 is enough here. Like I said, go through and look how the relative difficulties are calculated. The limiting factor to what they're doing is only that, in general, 25 mans are more dedicated to progression than 10, which may skew the results, but this early in the raid cycle, this difference is not that large.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_mean - As always, wikipedia is a huge help in these things.

I knew you didn't know how statistics works. You're trying to show me the relative difficulty when you originally showed me the kill % of each difficulty. My previous statement stands, a larger pool leads to a higher failure rate while a smaller pool leads to a higher success rate. That page doesn't even have the relative difficulty for both difficulties yet. It shows the first 2 on 25, then the last 4 on 10, but none have both. Either you're trying to get by with flawed logic, or you're just trying to be right using the wrong defense.

OK, I just did. You're saying that the majority of guilds that kill the raids pre nerf are 25 man and they're the ones who get to judge this? I'm not convinced this is true, I'd need to see some more statistics really.

I didn't say anyone would judge it. I just said that the people who actually kill this pre-nerf and understand the difference in difficulties will just nod and say the first person to kill it on 25man are the ones who did it on the harder difficulty. There will be no official blizz release saying "25 only!" or any such nonsense, it will just be the top players in the world not accepting 10man as the proper world first.

I'm tired of having to type shit out to you twice because you can't read and understand. That's why you are so terrible at statistics, yet you keep relying on statistics for everything. Go to school or something.

[Repefe]

I'm not going to bother with the rethoric or arguing about it on a forum with random people, but basically yes. 10m is also just less epic ... bosses have 3 times less health, do much less damage to the tanks, etc. etc. 25m bossmobs would wipe the floor with their 10m counterparts. So less epic, thus more easy-mode.

Less epic sure ... but it has no bearing on difficulty. It can be that 10 mans are harder or 25 mans are harder ... Blizz can't make them 100% same. There is a factor of randomness to it rather than bigger -> more difficult. So yeah ... celebrating being able to assemble 25 ppl instead of 10 is valid, it sure is more epic to have 25 ppl in raid instead of 10, but as fas as being good at the game ... Paragon wins.

[Nimitzles]

Gratz to Paragon, never seize to amaze, they just on another level these guys.

[vizzle]

There's a really simple explanation as to why Paragon is now the best 10m group when they were (arguably) the best 25m group.

Divide paragon's guild as a 25m guild into groups of tanks, healers, and dps. Now rank them.

Tanks: Best tank, 2nd best tank, 3rd best tank.

Healers: Best healer, 2nd best healer, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, (7th).

DPS: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17.

Now what do they do as a 10 man group? They take the 2 best tanks, the 2-3 best healers, and the 5-6 best dps. The average skill of a 10m group is always going to be higher than a 25m group of the same guild. That's just how math works.

Thus assuming 10m and 25m are tuned appropriately, paragon should actually be performing BETTER (comparatively to other 10m guilds) than they did when they were 25m. Lo and behold, that is what's happening right now.

That's basically all it is.

That was a really roundabout way of saying "they got the best of their best", which is what others have been saying this whole thread.

[silmarilen]

except that they didnt get to choose which people they took in their 10 man (at least not out of their entire 25man roster) since a lot of the old team quit.

[Nimitzles]

That was a really roundabout way of saying "they got the best of their best", which is what others have been saying this whole thread.

Well actually there resto druid is a new player. So 9 out of 10 best from there old 25 man team

[Deleted]

I'm not going to bother with the rethoric or arguing about it on a forum with random people, but basically yes. 10m is also just less epic ... bosses have 3 times less health, do much less damage to the tanks, etc. etc. 25m bossmobs would wipe the floor with their 10m counterparts. So less epic, thus more easy-mode.

This is stupid, you don't even know that bosses hit for the same amount on tanks in 10man and 25man do you? I don't know if they changed it in mop though, but in Cataclysm if a boss hit for 100k in 25man he also hit for 100k in 10man (to be precise the bosses rather hit for something like 95k in 25man and 100k in 10man because you usually didn't have all buffs/debuffs in 10man and 25man had way more raid-CDs).

And its not like you need 25 really good players to have success in 25man Raids... most (Worldrank 10-400) 25man Guilds have their 3-4 baddies and 9-10 people who are just there to spam healing/dmg. I know a lot of 25 players and when i ask the honest ones what they think of the boss they just killed they will say "don't know i was just not standing in the fire and did DPS".
What you need for a successful 25man Raid: 2 Good tanks, 2-3 good healers who coordinate the other healers and do special jobs in certain encounters, 7-8 good DDs who push the raid-DPS and do special jobs on certain bosses. So you need about 10 good players.

[Ryme]

I'm tired of having to type shit out to you twice because you can't read and understand. That's why you are so terrible at statistics, yet you keep relying on statistics for everything. Go to school or something.

Cheers, I'll just hang on to my maths degree and keep on chugging on these forums, nice chat.