What would had happened if Sargeras went through the portal?

[Deleted]

missed the point with the wisdom of aeons. lol

with that you only need the power of a kid.....to rule the world actually.

I didn't miss the point, it was just irrelevant.

Someone may have a lot of wisdom but if they have the power of a kid, then good luck ruling the world when 25 people come to destroy you.

[Tyrannica]

Do we know how powerful Sargeras, after he went rogue and after the 25k years creating the BL, really is? Seems all descriptions about him are pretty vague at that point.

He was the finest champion of the Titan Pantheon when he was still part of the Titan society, after turning chaotic and to the dark titan, he might went on a 25k yerars quest to get more powerful(than he allready was), to achieve his goal to undo all the titans creations and overcome the titan pantheon. Who knows how powerful he is now? I mean everything is possible at this point. From completely powerless and helpless drifting in the void till allpowerful, supreme dark deity that was allready wiping out the Panthenon without us knowing it. Would partly also explain what he was doing in his absence in the BL command line.

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I didn't miss the point, it was just irrelevant.

Someone may have a lot of wisdom but if they have the power of a kid, then good luck ruling the world when 25 people come to destroy you.

you really don't get it, isn't it? wisdom is power, and they have the wisdom of aeons. All thats needed is for old gods to be awake and have a way to communicate their plots to set them free, restoring them to full power.

[babo7000]

Why are people debating what Krasus said? It was intentionally contradicting.

On three separate occasions, he said:

1) The Old Gods, if released, would make even Sargeras beg for death.

2) The Five Aspects would be enough to kill the Old Gods.

3) If Sargeras came through the portal, Azeroth would have been lost.

So, he has no idea what he is talking about.

The Old Gods themselves believe they could have gotten rid of Sargeras if they were free, but we don't know if this was accurate.

[Deleted]

you really don't get it, isn't it? wisdom is power, and they have the wisdom of aeons.

So how exactly did we beat them then if you know everything about the old gods?

[Aquamonkey]

Seeing as how he and his minions were so utterly obsessed with Azeroth, I'm sure they'd turn up the nature of the Old Gods somewhere, or he'd have known it from observing the Titan's actions on Azeroth in the first place.

While we don't really know how long the titans fought the old gods, they didn't seem to be corrupted by them, and old god whispers seemed to take thousands of years to mentally corrupt Deathwing and Loken. Also remember that the Old Gods were significantly less powerful 10,000 years ago than they are now, and wouldn't have had the sundering to help crack their prisons.

It would arguably be much quicker to corrupt someone already fallen to depravity. It hardly took any time at all for the Old Gods to corrupt Cho'gall. Sargeras spent over 800 hundred years floating around inside Aegwynn and Medivh (I don't mean this as proof that Sargeras was corrupted by the Old Gods, just mentioning it as a possibility).

[Kaleredar]

It would arguably be much quicker to corrupt someone already fallen to depravity.

And, arguably, Sargeras could already have known of them. I'm sure Sargeras is indeed insane, but he's very set in what his goal is... And as for the Dread Lords, he doesn't have many reservations about making them his bitches.

The only way out I see for the Old Gods is if Sargeras tried to bend them to his will, and they managed to finagle in some way involving that.

It hardly took any time at all for the Old Gods to corrupt Cho'gall.

They don't really speak of the nature of Cho'gall's corruption; he could have served the old gods quite willingly after he and the twilight's cult were sent fleeing.

[apepi]

I see Sargeras as Chaotic Neutral( or maybe good) but I see the old gods as Chaotic evil, they just do things because it is fun for them, they just want to see the world burn. But Sargeras claims that since the titans created the demons they are responsible for their evil and thinks if they try to create more order it would create more evil.

[Aquamonkey]

I see Sargeras as Chaotic Neutral( or maybe good) but I see the old gods as Chaotic evil, they just do things because it is fun for them, they just want to see the world burn. But Sargeras claims that since the titans created the demons they are responsible for their evil and thinks if they try to create more order it would create more evil.

The Titans didn't create the demons. Though they did use some to police magic.

Ruled by an elite sect known as the Pantheon, the Titans brought order to a hundred million worlds scattered throughout the Great Dark Beyond during the first ages of creation. The benevolent Pantheon, which sought to safeguard these structured worlds, was ever vigilant against the threat of attack from the vile extra-dimensional entities of the Twisting Nether. The Nether, an ethereal dimension of chaotic magics that connected the myriad worlds of the universe, was home to an infinite number of malefic, demonic beings who sought only to destroy life and devour the energies of the living universe. Unable to conceive of evil or wickedness in any form, the Titans struggled to find a way to end the demons' constant threat.

[Deleted]

Posting this again since people don't actualy read....


"Algalon was sent by the titans after Watcher Loken's death activated a planetary fail-safe protection, indicating possible distress on Azeroth.[1] Algalon's task is to analyze any systemic corruption on the planet. If it's deemed beyond saving, the Titans will "re-originate" the planet to cleanse it of corruption, killing all currently living organisms in the process. After his defeat in Ulduar, he chose to monitor the activities of the mortal races of Azeroth. His outlook on life and the Titans' plans has been called into question, so he seeks to understand what makes Azeroth so different from the countless worlds he has observed before."

From WoWwiki.

From ingame and his own quotes:

"I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames. Their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and raised in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart, devoid of emotion... of empathy. I... have... felt... NOTHING! A million, million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?
Perhaps it is your imperfection that which grants you free will. That allows you to persevere against cosmically calculated odds. You prevailed where the Titans' own perfect creations have failed.
I've rearranged the reply code. Your planet will be spared. I cannot be certain of my own calculations anymore.
I lack the strength to transmit the signal. You must hurry. Find a place of power close to the skies.
Do not worry about my fate Bronzen. If the signal is not transmitted in time re-origination will proceed regardless. Save. Your. World."


Also from the Halls of Stone instance:

"Brann Bronzebeard yells: Ha! The old magic fingers finally won through! Now let's get down to-
Abedneum yells: Alert! Security fail safes deactivated. Beginning memory purge...
Brann Bronzebeard yells: Purge? No no no no no! Where did I-- Aha, this should do the trick...
Abedneum yells: System online. Life form pattern recognized. Welcome Branbronzan. Query?
Brann Bronzebeard yells: Query? What do you think I’m here for? Tea and biscuits? Spill the beans already! Tell me how that dwarfs came to be! And start at the beginning!
Abedneum yells: Accessing prehistoric data. Retrieved. In the beginning Earthen were created to-
Brann Bronzebeard yells: Right, right! I know that the Earthen were made of stone to shape the deep reaches of the world but what about the anomalies? Matrix non-stabilizing and whatnot.
Abedneum yells: Accessing. In the early stages of its development cycle Azeroth suffered infection by parasitic, necrophotic symbiotes.
Brann Bronzebeard yells: Necro-what? Speak bloody common will ya?
Abedneum yells: Designation: Old Gods. Old Gods rendered all systems, including Earthen defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation. This matrix destabilization has been termed the Curse of Flesh. Effects of destabilization increased over time.
Brann Bronzebeard yells: Old Gods eh? So they zapped the Earthen with this Curse of Flesh. And then what?
Kaddrak yells: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host.
Brann Bronzebeard yells: If they killed the Old Gods Azeroth would have been destroyed.
Kaddrak yells: Correct. Creators neutralized parasitic threat and contained it within the host. Forge of Wills and other systems were instituted to create new Earthen. Safeguards were implemented and protectors were appointed.
Brann Bronzebeard yells: What protectors?
Kaddrak yells: Designations: Aesir and Vanir or in common nomenclator Storm and Earth Giants. Sentinel Loken designated supreme. Dragon Aspects appointed to monitor evolution of Azeroth.

This lore is from Wrath of the lich king expansion, way never than the old knaak books... This is what the game and lore is now, not the 10year old books.

[Immitis]

missed the point with the wisdom of aeons. lol

with that you only need the power of a kid.....to rule the world actually.

theres no evidence to show that the old gods on azeroth are old enough to have wisdom of the aeons.

[Shadowygoodness]

I don't understand why people keep babbling on about Old Gods being "outside the cycle" when the Lead Quests Designer, aka the guy who writes a lot of the lore today, says THEY DO DIE. That's it people. The man has spoken. They are not invincible. The reason it's such a no no to kill them is b/c of the effects they leave behind on the world (see: Sha).

[cazeoj]

The Old Gods are outside the cycle of life and death. Even if they die, they are still alive in some form regardless, as shown with Y'shaarj.

Does this mean that they are more powerful then Sargeras? In some aspects perhaps, but there is no clear indicator that they are, which figures due to their mysterious nature.

Olds Gods are eldritch horrors. They aren't meant to be understood, and I would go as far as to make an argument that they are at least somewhat extra dimensional.

More or less they are corruption incarnate.

Sargeras on the other hand is almost on the opposite spectrum of evil. He is pretty much pure power and destruction. He isn't an eldritch horror like the Old Gods, and as of my knowledge he exists in the same plane as Azeroth (In that he has a mortal shell).

Can Sargeras kill an Old God? Almost certainly.

Can an Old God corrupt Sargeras? Probably, but he is already pretty freaking corrupt.

The fact of the matter is even if Sargeras did kill an Old God, it is likely the Old God wouldn't really die as we would, as it seems that they don't abide by the laws of our universe. The mortal shell of the Old God would certainly die, but I believe that an Old God itself is more of a will that can manifest physically when certain conditions apply, not unlike the Sha, albeit on a much larger scale.

Furthermore it is almost a sure thing that we are going to be killing Sargeras, and with doing that we will pretty much defy all reason as he is built up to be a being of godlike strength.

I'd like to close by saying this is a game, more specifically an MMO. In the end, unless it is the server closing event for the Old Gods to manifest and destroy pretty much everything or Sargeras to enter into the world and turn it into a cinder, we are always going to prevail, often to the point of ridiculousness. We've already done things that would have never flown if this game was a book or still in RTS form.

[Shadowygoodness]

The Old Gods are outside the cycle of life and death. Even if they die, they are still alive in some form regardless, as shown with Y'shaarj.

Does this mean that they are more powerful then Sargeras? In some aspects perhaps, but there is no clear indicator that they are, which figures due to their mysterious nature.

Olds Gods are eldritch horrors. They aren't meant to be understood, and I would go as far as to make an argument that they are at least somewhat extra dimensional.

More or less they are corruption incarnate.

Sargeras on the other hand is almost on the opposite spectrum of evil. He is pretty much pure power and destruction. He isn't an eldritch horror like the Old Gods, and as of my knowledge he exists in the same plane as Azeroth (In that he has a mortal shell).

Can Sargeras kill an Old God? Almost certainly.

Can an Old God corrupt Sargeras? Probably, but he is already pretty freaking corrupt.

The fact of the matter is even if Sargeras did kill an Old God, it is likely the Old God wouldn't really die as we would, as it seems that they don't abide by the laws of our universe. The mortal shell of the Old God would certainly die, but I believe that an Old God itself is more of a will that can manifest physically when certain conditions apply, not unlike the Sha, albeit on a much larger scale.

Furthermore it is almost a sure thing that we are going to be killing Sargeras, and with doing that we will pretty much defy all reason as he is built up to be a being of godlike strength.

I'd like to close by saying this is a game, more specifically an MMO. In the end, unless it is the server closing event for the Old Gods to manifest and destroy pretty much everything or Sargeras to enter into the world and turn it into a cinder, we are always going to prevail, often to the point of ridiculousness. We've already done things that would have never flown if this game was a book or still in RTS form.

This guy wins the internetz.

[Blarglord69]

If ol sargy had come through we'd be SOLJWF

[Mormolyce]

The Old Gods are outside the cycle of life and death.

The Puzzle Box said that.

The Puzzle Box quotes are Lovecraft references.

That is to say, a joke.

Non-canon. Unless verified elsewhere.

[Drilnos]

The Puzzle Box said that.

The Puzzle Box quotes are Lovecraft references.

That is to say, a joke.

Non-canon. Unless verified elsewhere.

Even jokes are canon if they show up in the game, especially archaeology items, being products of a profession whose only purpose is to exposit lore. Harrison Jones is canon. Budd Nedreck is canon. And if the puzzle box is a joke, it's one of the least funny ones to ever exist. Many of its quotes, furthermore, are corroborated by the heart of Y'Shaarj in the upcoming raid. And if that's not canon then nothing is.

[Aquamonkey]

The Puzzle Box said that.

The Puzzle Box quotes are Lovecraft references.

That is to say, a joke.

Non-canon. Unless verified elsewhere.

Herald Volazj in Ahn'kahet: The Old Kingdom says: "They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle."

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Something noteworthy: The Titans couldn't defeat N'Zoth.

Where is N'Zoth? He was mentioned at Blizzcon, then was talked about in Dragon Soul. What is going on with him?!
N'zoth is still lurking. The Titans couldn't defeat it... maybe someday we'll get our chance? Don't expect to hear anything about him in Pandaria, though! (Source)

[kendro1200]

My understanding is that C'thun is fully dead. Yogg'saron I believe we only killed his manifestation, but that he's just been put back to sleep. But I was under the impression C'thun was gone forever.

He was fully dead until the WoW comic came around. Even though the WoW comic is supposed to be cannon, I really think it's about as cannon as the RPG books, in that it sometimes a nice place for whoever is currently on the story department for patch X.XX to sometimes pull ideas from. At this point though C'thun is "dead" as Cho'gall took his husk and absorbed what remaining power was present. It's entirely possible that he was completely killed back in Vanilla and all that remained was the C'thun equivalent of the Sha, Med'an weakened the remnants and then Cho'gall absorbed what little power remained. But ya, the expanded universe stuff sometimes really screws up the story and lore, particularly the comics.

As to the thread's topic. Sargeras wouldn't willingly let out the Old Gods because they are chaos incarnate, they have goals that completely interfere with his goals. The Old Gods want chaos, Sargeras wants to end all life. If the Old Gods ever escaped and were pitted against Sargeras, the Old Gods would probably win, simply because they can corrupt anything that lives. The armies of the the Legion would be ultimately powerless, as not only would their bodies corrupt, but also their very souls, so the more powerful demons that simply go back to the Twisting Nether when their corporeal form is slain wouldn't even be able to escape corruption. Sargeras is the main antagonist of the Warcraft Universe, but he isn't the most powerful entity or leader of the most powerful group. If we were to rank current power standings it'd be Titans, Old God Forces, Naru/Legion (because they're at a standstill atm), Scourge, various mortal split factions, smaller mortal split factions. Every demon we see in the Legion has been captured and imprisoned by the Titans, same with most of the Old Gods, it takes far more effort to capture alive than to outright kill, but when killing doesn't stop the problem capturing it sometimes necessary. The Old Gods on Azeroth was the only situation in which it has been recorded that the Titans even needed at least a partially united front against another foe, in most other cases it has been recorded that a singular titan, handful of titans or titan avatars would be able to subdue other forces that would attempt to undue the Titan's earlier work. Slightly sidetracking though. The point being, Sargeras would lose in a fight against the Old Gods, no buts about it. On the other hand he has no reason to want them free as they impede his plans of getting rid of all life.

[Koreche]

He'd come out the other side.



Sometimes.
The Old gods just kind of flail around breaking anything they can, they're like a four year old hopped up on sugar-laced crack. Chaos incarnate.



He'd certainly win a a round of fisticuffs.
But I think in terms of actual "power" the Old Gods are probably stronger. They're able to corrupt and unmake the Titan's work, and the Titans seem to be rather unable to successfully contain them... And Sargeras is a Titan after all, albeit a strong one. So I think Sarggie could beat them up, but if you put an old god and the dark titan in a room, eventually he'd gone insane and start listening to the voices.

things can resist them, if u notice players never go insane from old god whispers, not to mention azshara isn't under N'zoth complete control she just accepted power so she wouldn't drown.

Not to mention the titans can prison old gods, and they killed one. They cant touch sarg

[Xargoth6634]

Pretty interesting reading, thanks guys. So what's the deal with the Pantheon now, is there really any lore about their current status? Saw one guy say they could be dead or whatever but didn't see a source, and I kind of wonder why they'd just let Sargeras wonder around legioning it up. He can't possibly be more powerful than all of them together, can he?