Lore Interview with Dave Kosak

[Deleted]

me either. right now it feels like orcs, after spending years as the redeemed orcish race, have been blacklisted by the devs, and putting there place in the story in an even bleaker standard.

Well, there is a hoping that SoO will actually allow the unadulurated WoW orcs to move away from the Warhammer Ork archetype by battling the local emanation of it- -Garrosh's 'TRUE' [ & HONEST!] Horde that is armed with clunky machines and lack of diplomacy.

Again - this is what I hope for.

[Trassk]

Well, there is a hoping that SoO will actually allow the unadulurated WoW orcs to move away from the Warhammer Ork archetype by battling the local emanation of it- -Garrosh's 'TRUE' [ & HONEST!] Horde that is armed with clunky machines and lack of diplomacy.

Again - this is what I hope for.

See thats what I hope to see. Its why i liked warcraft in its current incarnation, because well the orcs in early warcraft were just almost exact copies of orks from warhammer, the developers set out to make orcs into something different, more advanced and more civilized when orks or any of that genre, well still keeping them powerful fighters and warriors on the battlefield, and you know, raising families and generally living and working when not fighting. They made them far less derp de derp basicly.

and thats what i want to see happen again, the current orc storyline feels like 5 steps back into that era. If I wanted orcs of that nature i'd be playing warhammer.

Plus, well there is Saurfang, Eitrigg and Thrall, and even that honorable moment with Nazgrim in that clip, there hasn't been any examples of the orc populous, aside from inkeepers, joining the rebellion, despite kosak saying there are.

[Sukhoi]

See thats what I hope to see. Its why i liked warcraft in its current incarnation, because well the orcs in early warcraft were just almost exact copies of orks from warhammer, the developers set out to make orcs into something different, more advanced and more civilized when orks or any of that genre, well still keeping them powerful fighters and warriors on the battlefield, and you know, raising families and generally living and working when not fighting. They made them far less derp de derp basicly.

and thats what i want to see happen again, the current orc storyline feels like 5 steps back into that era. If I wanted orcs of that nature i'd be playing warhammer.

Plus, well there is Saurfang, Eitrigg and Thrall, and even that honorable moment with Nazgrim in that clip, there hasn't been any examples of the orc populous, aside from inkeepers, joining the rebellion, despite kosak saying there are.

And i want draeneis with A storyline.

[Trassk]

And i want draeneis with A storyline.

if you listen to kosak he said there would be draenei lore and how its overdue.

[Faroth]

if you listen to kosak he said there would be draenei lore and how its overdue.

"sometime"

When that will be is anyone's guess. Depends if our next expansion is naga based or Legion based, I'd say.

[KrazyK923]

"sometime"

When that will be is anyone's guess. Depends if our next expansion is naga based or Legion based, I'd say.

They've also been saying this since like Wrath too, so its not even a new comment.

[Thage]

which was only put in after a massive outcry and the point still stand, he didn't contact the alliance and he doesn't need them if he is willing to threaten them the moment they offer help
so if he doesn't need the alliance to win it means the alliance has no effect whatsoever on the story, the story would play out exactly the same if blizzard tomorrow removed the alliance

X != Y. He does need the Alliance; that the rebels fail to take Bladefist Bay alone confirms that they didn't have the numbers to take on Orgrimmar alone even if the blood elves and Forsaken were able to fight through the Kor'kron to join the trolls and tauren, and what orcs jump ship to join the rebellion. Vol'jin makes a bad bluff and you call him on it--and he threatens you because you first threaten to just take the supplies and walk. Being a dick to a troll gets the troll being a dick back to you, it's called cause and effect.

a vauum that's filled 5 mins after it is over

Which still involves needing to re-establish a chain of command and work out the power structure with the other leaders, since only an idiot would think the Horde as it was before Garrosh's reign, where the Warchief holds absolute sociopolitical power over the entire Horde, has any chance of continuing going forward.

I'm sure they cried out in pain about their suffering as they were murdering alliance children

[Citation Needed]. Tides of War clearly shows that the only people left at Theramore were combatants, and nowhere in Mists of Pandaria or its supporting short stories/novels are the Horde shown killing children before or after the revolution. Kosak has repeatedly confirmed that for all his monstrosities, Garrosh remained firmly against killing children.

hence my point that no one in the horde at any point gave a fuck if garrosh was going to genocide the whole alliance but they only turned against him once he became incontinent for them

Your point is fundamentally flawed in that the other Horde leaders repeatedly called Garrosh out, and as early as the attack on Theramore, were meeting and looking into ways to mitigate Garrosh's plans. The point is that they went along because if they didn't, Garrosh would have wiped their people off the map in retaliation for perceived treason and Baine only took up arms after Vol'jin openly rebels, having had enough of Garrosh's shit when Garrosh tried to have him killed. Sylvanas and Lor'themar also openly planned rebellion, with Lor'themar going as far as approaching Varian to talk about defecting, then considering a bid for Warchief after Dalaran. Sylvanas has been problematic for Garrosh since before the Gilneas invasion, with her openly defying him and spelling it out that nothing he can ever do will intimidate her, after she saw what the afterlife had in store for her.

[zanzan28]

Thank you for making this interview possible Jesse, some really good questions in there.

It's sad to see he didn't understand why Alliance players are upset in the first place. We're not upset because we never win, we actually do win in some places... we're upset our victories never truly make it into the game, we're not there to experience them most of times and instead we're given some shit joke. For example, the Alliance fleet debarking into the Barrens! That would have been an amazing moment, conquering the Southern Barrens... yet you only get there when the deed is done and you get to see how the Alliance mostly lose the zone with their general dieing and their major stronghold destroyed.
Another perfect example, Dalaran, you go there, slay some blood elves... then Dalaran is gone, it's like the whole battle never even mattered and on island of the Thunger King both the sides seem perfectly equal like the few that escaped from Dalaran (blood elves I mean) are as strong as all the other mages of Dalaran.


No, that's what you want to think. That's the argument people like you bring when you say Alliance players are whining though most times except a few fanatics nobody asks for the utter destruction of the Horde. We just ask for a similar experience as quality. Get it? As in, I don't want to go with robo-cat while you assault a town... because that's lame. Maybe I want to... I don't know, conquer the ruins of that keep in Durotar whose name I forget. It's not something that makes the whole game unbalanced or something.


Agreed. And to be honest, if they felt that Dalaran hovering over Orgrimmar would have created tehnical issues... why not simply have it hover over the sea, in the distance, and you seeing fireballs and whatnot being thrown from Dalaran and from Orgrimmar you'd see cannon fire heading to Dalaran. Since you couldn't get to Dalaran since it would be hovering above the water, it wouldn't create problems, and since it would hover above water, it wouldn't create problems for the area below it...


To be honest, I don't even care we just killed a few blood elves in Dalaran, my problem with it is... that it doesn't matter, Dalaran won't be anywhere, ever. It's like that "victory" never even existed, Dalaran could have crashed in the sea and Jaina took the survivors from the amount of Kirin Tor we see after we capture Dalaran.

Also, I like your avatar.

Agreed completely-he doesn't understand what the alliance want.

[Yarathir]

Yet again Aquamonkey, you fail to understand what I pointed out in my last post.

Strawman.

- - - Updated - - -



This is also true.

You're using someone else's opinion (likely shared by a minority of Alliance players) on what should potentially happen to the Horde to attack another person who just wants to have a little fairness when it comes to presentation/lore wise logic/displayed victories/portrayal.



.. Seems legit.



Next time a rational feminist makes a very logical, fair post with great, and valid points, my rebuttal will also be to dig up some post from a random feminazi who wants the world ruled by women and for men to be castrated on what is currently father's day.


You don't see how that is really, really a stupid way to argue .. well, just about ANYTHING?

[Aquamonkey]

You're using someone else's opinion (likely shared by a minority of Alliance players) on what should potentially happen to the Horde to attack another person who just wants to have a little fairness when it comes to presentation/lore wise logic/displayed victories/portrayal.



.. Seems legit.



Next time a feminist makes a very logical, fair post with great, and valid points, my rebuttal will also be to dig up some post from a random feminazi who wants the world ruled by women and for men to be castrated on what is currently father's day.


You don't see how that is really, really a stupid way to argue .. well, just about ANYTHING?

Except that's not what happened. Nowhere did I say they were representative of everyone who plays the Alliance. My exact words were "small group." KrazyK was the one jumping up my ass for pointing out that some people want the Horde destroyed.

[Yarathir]

Except that's not what happened. Nowhere did I say they were representative of everyone who plays the Alliance. My exact words were "small group." KrazyK was the one jumping up my ass for pointing out that some people want the Horde destroyed.

No, for several posts, you used Talen's stuff (which is not even what he wants, but more the "logical real life consequences" in his mind) to argue against the valid and reasonable posts of miffed Alliance players.


Don't try to deny.



Well, you can and you probably will, but anyone with enough energy to dredge through the thread will be able to see that it is a lie.. until you delete those posts.

[Aquamonkey]

No, for several posts, you used Talen's stuff (which is not even what he wants, but more the "logical real life consequences" in his mind) to argue against the valid and reasonable posts of miffed Alliance players.

Don't try to deny.

Well, you can and you probably will, but anyone with enough energy to dredge through the thread will be able to see that it is a lie.. until you delete those posts.

And you just zero in on Talen's posts? What about all the other people who posted that these things should happen? Annihilating certain Horde factions, Bad Horde destroying Good Horde, imposing ridiculous restrictions, having the Horde be under Alliance administration, deporting the orcs to Outland, etc. They're pissed off that they won't happen because "lol game," can't destroy the game for half the players.

"The Alliances goal should be nothing less than total and complete annihilation of the Forsaken."
What am I misrepresenting?

[Yarathir]

And you just zero in on Talen's posts? What about all the other people who posted that these things should happen? Annihilating certain Horde factions, Bad Horde destroying Good Horde, imposing ridiculous restrictions, having the Horde be under Alliance administration, deporting the orcs to Outland, etc. They're pissed off that they won't happen because "lol game," can't destroy the game for half the players.

Still, you are using those radical extremist posts to try and invalidate a reasonable post. That's not contrived at all!

[Aquamonkey]

Still, you are using those radical extremist posts to try and invalidate a reasonable post. That's not contrived at all!

What reasonable posts am I invalidating? I said a "small group" and I pointed directly to examples of whom that referred to.

[Yarathir]

What reasonable posts am I invalidating? I said a "small group" and I pointed directly to examples of whom that referred to.

You used the radical "destroy Horde Hurr hurr hurr!!!!" posts to try and invalidate KrazyK923's points and rather well-formulated points on the exact gripes. Not once, but multiple times.

[Aquamonkey]

You used the radical "destroy Horde Hurr hurr hurr!!!!" posts to try and invalidate KrazyK923's points and rather well-formulated points on the exact gripes. Not once, but multiple times.

Show me where this happened. He jumped up my butt for my response to:

I don't see why the arguments continue at this point. Kosak said very plainly and very simple terms that the Dev will only give the Alliance stuff that won't alienate and anger the Horde Playerbase. You guys are second-class customers in your monthly paid game. They don't care if they alienate and anger the Alliance, but they won't do a thing that might piss off the Horde players.

Come to grips, make your faction changes, accept and move on.

Because after all they did to give the Alliance victory after victory, they aren't going to bend over backwards and alienate half the playerbase for the small group of ungrateful whiners who will never be satisfied unless SoO is an Alliance-exclusive raid that destroys the Horde faction in-game for good.

And given Kosak's frustration in the interview about trying to appease certain Alliance players...

Alliance fist pump moment - it was promised - what is it?
This expansion, after Theramore, there have been a string of Alliance victories. They stopped Garrosh in 5.1 from doing what he was going to do. By 5.2, we had purged Dalaran. Dalaran is now an Alliance city. 5.3, we saw the Horde completely dissolving while the Alliance is coming together. And in 5.4, the Alliance is marching into Orgrimmar, deposing the Warchief, and allowing the Horde to name a successor that they can work with. So, Alliance is changing the world here. And so, that's big! I don't know how to make it any bigger without alienating the entire Horde playerbase. I think we're trying to walk the line where both Alliance and Horde are seeing the siege of Orgrimmar as something they're both excited about. I think we've crafted a good story to do that. I'm not sure... if we were sieging Stormwind would that be more fist-pumpy? I mean, YOU'RE SIEGING ORGRIMMAR! YOU ARE TAKING AN ENEMY CAPITAL AND KILLING THE WARCHIEF! I don't know what more the Alliance can be doing. They're like, "uuhhhh yeahh, whatever." I don't know, I don't know what more the Alliance can be doing. PUMP SOME FISTS AS YOU KILL EVERY SINGLE ORC IN ORGRIMMAR, practically. (Source)

Please tell me how Infernix's post was reasonable? I said a "small group" were wanting the Horde destroyed. Then after KrazyK tried to whitewash the Alliance fanbase by pretending those people didn't exist, I pointed directly to examples of such extremist viewpoints.

[Yarathir]

Show me where this happened. He jumped up my butt for my response to:


And given Kosak's frustration in the interview about trying to appease certain Alliance players.

Alliance fist pump moment - it was promised - what is it?
This expansion, after Theramore, there have been a string of Alliance victories. They stopped Garrosh in 5.1 from doing what he was going to do. By 5.2, we had purged Dalaran. Dalaran is now an Alliance city. 5.3, we saw the Horde completely dissolving while the Alliance is coming together. And in 5.4, the Alliance is marching into Orgrimmar, deposing the Warchief, and allowing the Horde to name a successor that they can work with. So, Alliance is changing the world here. And so, that's big! I don't know how to make it any bigger without alienating the entire Horde playerbase. I think we're trying to walk the line where both Alliance and Horde are seeing the siege of Orgrimmar as something they're both excited about. I think we've crafted a good story to do that. I'm not sure... if we were sieging Stormwind would that be more fist-pumpy? I mean, YOU'RE SIEGING ORGRIMMAR! YOU ARE TAKING AN ENEMY CAPITAL AND KILLING THE WARCHIEF! I don't know what more the Alliance can be doing. They're like, "uuhhhh yeahh, whatever." I don't know, I don't know what more the Alliance can be doing. PUMP SOME FISTS AS YOU KILL EVERY SINGLE ORC IN ORGRIMMAR, practically. (Source)

Please tell me how Infernix's post was reasonable? I said a "small group" were wanting the Horde destroyed. Then after KrazyK tried to whitewash the Alliance fanbase by pretending those people didn't exist, I pointed directly to examples of such extremist viewpoints.

Hey. You actually prove my whole point after telling me to dig it up. That's actually a great example of it.



Nothing in Infernix' post says "I want the Horde to be destroyed before I am ever grateful and happy" that is just something you said so you could conveniently render his argument invalid: the strawman in its own respect.


Yes, the closest thing he said to what might slightly be interpreted (by someone who obviously wants to interpret it that way to fuel his argument; hint hint) as "I want to see the horde destroyed" is the part where he says but they won't do a thing that might piss off the Horde players.".



You pretty much displayed your whole strawman right in this thread. Bolded and all. My gratitude for doing my work for me.



"Plezya doin' business.".

[Aquamonkey]

Hey. You actually prove my whole point after telling me to dig it up. That's actually a great example of it.



Nothing in Infernix' post says "I want the Horde to be destroyed before I am ever grateful and happy" that is just something you said so you could conveniently render his argument invalid: the strawman in its own respect.


Yes, the closest thing he said to what might slightly be interpreted (by someone who obviously wants to interpret it that way to fuel his argument; hint hint) as "I want to see the horde destroyed" is the part where he says but they won't do a thing that might piss off the Horde players.".



You pretty much displayed your whole strawman right in this thread. Bolded and all. My gratitude for doing my work for me.



"Plezya doin' business.".

Show me where I accused Infernix of being in that small group of wanting the Horde destroyed. You're the one strawmanning.

And clearly Kosak is frustrated by players who are like that, if that isn't proof enough that they exist.

[Yarathir]

Show me where I accused Infernix of being in that small group of wanting the Horde destroyed. You're the one strawmanning.

Rofl. Your whole damn reply to Infernix is one big strawman.


"I don't see why the arguments continue at this point. Kosak said very plainly and very simple terms that the Dev will only give the Alliance stuff that won't alienate and anger the Horde Playerbase. You guys are second-class customers in your monthly paid game. They don't care if they alienate and anger the Alliance, but they won't do a thing that might piss off the Horde players.

Come to grips, make your faction changes, accept and move on."


"Because after all they did to give the Alliance victory after victory, they aren't going to bend over backwards and alienate half the playerbase for the small group of ungrateful whiners who will never be satisfied unless SoO is an Alliance-exclusive raid that destroys the Horde faction in-game for good."



I really don't know why I'm even trying anymore. Have a good night, lol.

[Aquamonkey]

Rofl. Your whole damn reply to Infernix is one big strawman.


"I don't see why the arguments continue at this point. Kosak said very plainly and very simple terms that the Dev will only give the Alliance stuff that won't alienate and anger the Horde Playerbase. You guys are second-class customers in your monthly paid game. They don't care if they alienate and anger the Alliance, but they won't do a thing that might piss off the Horde players.

Come to grips, make your faction changes, accept and move on."


"Because after all they did to give the Alliance victory after victory, they aren't going to bend over backwards and alienate half the playerbase for the small group of ungrateful whiners who will never be satisfied unless SoO is an Alliance-exclusive raid that destroys the Horde faction in-game for good."



I really don't know why I'm even trying anymore. Have a good night, lol.

Except where I pointed out examples of posts from that group of people...

And clearly Alliance are second-class costumers based on the frustration Kosak feels in trying to appease certain Alliance fans after giving them so many victories... But the group I pointed out wouldn't be happy unless the Horde is destroyed.