[Megathread] DotA 2

[LiiLoSNK]

I guarantee they are turned on for pro streams. No coach is gonna be like, "Yea don't use that thing that makes diving/last hitting easier and shows you exactly how close you can get to towers while invis". Even though it's not necessary for most players, it'll still help. I just think it looks like pure shit and just reminds me of the shittier more casual games.

It's like if you took the sport of 10-pin bowling and put up those bumper rails on the sides of the lanes for someone who was already a pro bowler. I'm sure they are already well aware of how to avoid rolling the balls into the gutters so they can easily avoid hitting the rails, but I'm sure they'd still be annoyed to see the little retarded rails meant for children sitting on the sides of the lane the entire damn time. I don't know shit about bowling so it's probably a bad reference.

Obviously it's the right thing to do to expand the player base and maximize profits, but seriously you don't have to tard-proof every single little thing.

[StrawberryZebra]

@ zebra
If you had separate MMRs for roles, you wouldn't have a 1700 mid unless you were a 1700 support. I'm sure the system would try to keep games pretty even in terms of overall MMR, and, at worst, if your team has a support 1k lower than everyone else, the enemy team will as well, and you will know that before the game even begins because they can start showing everyone's MMR at the start again. I also find it unlikely anyone's MMR would be too vastly different, as mechanical skills translate across roles even if game knowledge does not, so a 4k carry player would likely still calibrate at 3k+ support easily (obviously you'd have different calibration matches for different roles).

I'd assume the gap would be +/-10 to 15% of current MMR for most. Unfortunately anyone having a massive gap between two roles would be an easy target for ridicule, especially if your best role happens to be support. You're going to be told that you got carried or boosted every single time you make a mistake.

If you recalibrate everyone from zero you're going to run into issues though is when you've got people who are extremely skilled in one role, but want a break and play something else. They're either going to get massively frustrated with their team mates not performing to the standards they expect, or end up warping the game around them, being so much better than everyone else, to an unacceptable degree. I'm sure we all know how much of a shitstorm resetting everyones MMR would cause.

If you recalibrate people from where they are now, then you can expect quite a lot of ruined games while the system adjusts in both directions. I'm all for Dota getting a role queue, but I don't think doing MMR on a role-by-role basis is the best solution.

[Deleted]

Yeah the transfers are pretty obviously legit, but I would still like to hear more reasoning behind it. There's too much lack of communication from the pro scene about why things are happening, we still haven't heard a single fucking word from EG. This is a brand that not only represents effectively all of NA dota right now, they also represent several other esports in the US. If people ever want esports taken seriously, this kind of lack of communication can't be happening. The fans need to know what is happening with their team and their players, period. I don't really care about the player swaps, good luck to all of them, though it's probably going to ruin my favorite team as an American, obviously, I'm just disappointed in how everything is handled and disappointed in dota "esports" in general. What else is new, I guess.

Things like this are always going to stay under the roof until they explode.

Now regarding EG, latest rumors are they are adding back Aui2000 and getting Bulba, and I think that's insanely good.

[Roshar]

Yeah the transfers are pretty obviously legit, but I would still like to hear more reasoning behind it.

https://ask.fm/EternaLEnVy1991/answers/135236967387

[Lysah]

If you recalibrate people from where they are now, then you can expect quite a lot of ruined games while the system adjusts in both directions. I'm all for Dota getting a role queue, but I don't think doing MMR on a role-by-role basis is the best solution.

Well, what other option is there? If everyone has the same MMR then we have the same problem we have now - everyone wants to play mid because it's the best way to increase MMR, and people will tilt when they don't get mid and throw games from the start, which is the #1 issue ranked faces right now in my opinion and what such a system would be attempting to prevent.

Things like this are always going to stay under the roof until they explode.

Now regarding EG, latest rumors are they are adding back Aui2000 and getting Bulba, and I think that's insanely good.

I think it could be okay, though EE speculated that fear would remain position 4 and aui 1. I don't know if he was just trolling, but he does actually spend a lot of time with EG, so if he's being serious and knows something we don't then I am not excited about that roster at all. Aui was a fantastic support back in ti5, and Fear is probably the single best carry in the world (somewhat biased opinion), so it would be a serious downgrade to have them swap and would make the difference between a tier 1 and tier 2 team, imo.

https://ask.fm/EternaLEnVy1991/answers/135236967387

Doesn't really help...sadly, the only person who can really weigh in on the matter in a meaningful manner at this point is probably PPD and he is ghosting. Knowing Fear, he will probably try to avoid the drama, knowing sumail, someone is probably putting a muzzle on him, the best statement we have is Universe's apology which seems to support the fact that they just ditched EG at the spur of the moment but that doesn't tell us about EG's plans after the fact. At this point I believe picking up aui/bulba is just a desperation move to keep the team together and going to Manila, but that's just speculation until someone says something.

And if it IS desperation, is it worth investing your support into EG at this point? If picking up Aui, who PPD has already said he doesn't like playing with, was a last second decision they got cornered into, you can expect Aui to get kicked immediately after the major ends and EG to be looking at a brand new roster once again. I'm thinking I'm going to have to start rooting for coL and Liquid.

[StrawberryZebra]

Well, what other option is there? If everyone has the same MMR then we have the same problem we have now - everyone wants to play mid because it's the best way to increase MMR, and people will tilt when they don't get mid and throw games from the start, which is the #1 issue ranked faces right now in my opinion and what such a system would be attempting to prevent.

The cleanest way around it would be to add it with a new Season. New queues and MMR adjustments are more palatable wrapped up together than separately, especially if you add in some form of prizes for doing well in the past season. It would also set expectations appropriately for the chaos it would initially cause. I still feel that having a role queue without role specific MMR would be the best bet though, it still allows people their bragging rights and avoids many of the issues of having role-specific MMR. Most notably it would accomodate players who play more than one role well, assuming it would allow you to queue for multiple roles at once, without excluding those who can only do one. It might not be perfect, but it should be an improvement at least.

The alternative would be to make other roles more appealing, but that would probably require an in-depth overhaul of multiple systems at this point and I'm not sure Valve would be willing to do that to fix issues with solo queue. They've made it very clear that their development priorities are geared towards the Pros.

Or I suppose you could add a new ranked map that consists entirely of Middle Lanes. That would make everyone, myself excluded, very happy.

[Lysah]

I mean, a role queue would probably go a long way to stopping all the infighting over middle and safe lane carry, but without separate MMR you're going to have 2 hour queues for even 2k MMR games as 99.99% of the community queues up for the same roles, I feel like.

[M1r4g3]

I'd rather make support just a little bit more interesting instead, for example i liked playing supports in hots because it actually felt like supporting while in dota its okish when you're winning but frustrating as hell when you're losing, and you're also hit the hardest.
Think it would also make the pub meta kinda boring, sure most games where you have 5 cores fail miserably but at least it keeps things interesting, so rather than eliminating that completely maybe its better to just have it happen a bit less?

[Charge me Doctor]

I'd rather make support just a little bit more interesting instead, for example i liked playing supports in hots because it actually felt like supporting while in dota its okish when you're winning but frustrating as hell when you're losing, and you're also hit the hardest.
Think it would also make the pub meta kinda boring, sure most games where you have 5 cores fail miserably but at least it keeps things interesting, so rather than eliminating that completely maybe its better to just have it happen a bit less?

Like they do with change to neutral boxes and tower range, so you can do you support job without doing your homework at custom games for hours

[StrawberryZebra]

I mean, a role queue would probably go a long way to stopping all the infighting over middle and safe lane carry, but without separate MMR you're going to have 2 hour queues for even 2k MMR games as 99.99% of the community queues up for the same roles, I feel like.

The bottleneck with any role queue will be support, seperate MMR or not. If anything, its just going to create more uneven games as the first supports to queue get put in with the people who've been waiting the longest, assuming they're within a reasonable MMR range for the game. If you've already been waiting 2 hours then what the matchamaker considers to be "reasonable" doesn't bare thinking about.

You're always going to have to wait on the least popular roles in any queueing system. Be it waiting on tanks in MMO's or supports in dota. Trying to "fix the players" so they want to play the role has never worked, its much better to fix the role up so people are interested in playing it. Other mobas have tackled the problems to some extent, but Dota is lagging behind.

[Kralljin]

I'd rather make support just a little bit more interesting instead, for example i liked playing supports in hots because it actually felt like supporting while in dota its okish when you're winning but frustrating as hell when you're losing, and you're also hit the hardest.
Think it would also make the pub meta kinda boring, sure most games where you have 5 cores fail miserably but at least it keeps things interesting, so rather than eliminating that completely maybe its better to just have it happen a bit less?

I think that supporting should actually reward something, currently you have no personal gain from supporting aside from assist gold.

For example, if you stack a creep camp, the person who stacked the camp will receive 10% Gold and XP, increasing by 5% for each additional stacked spawn.

If you buy dust, and it's being used to kill an invis hero, get some bonus gold for it.

Saved a person from dying? Why not give out some bonus gold there? They did something like that already for those Winterpass challenges, so it's possible to track.

[Lysah]

All of those things can be abused by carrys, though. If they stack their own camps do they get bonus gold? If mid stacks for safe lane does he get bonus gold? How do you decide which heroes get to be support? VS is usually considered a support but became a carry at the major.
@zebra
Yeah it wouldn't fix the problem but doing nothing sure won't fix it either

[Kralljin]

All of those things can be abused by carrys, though. If they stack their own camps do they get bonus gold?

No, it's a cut from the gold.

Stacking won't become unpopular because suddenly a support receives a cut, 10% is not a huge deal, but it really helps a support to grab brown boots or upgraded boots slightly earlier than just living from the passive gold income.

If mid stacks for safe lane does he get bonus gold? How do you decide which heroes get to be support? VS is usually considered a support but became a carry at the major.

I doubt it will have a major impact on any mid lane hero if he gets 10% of like 400 Gold, you have to stack a lot camps that this has actually any impact on core heroes.

To avoid any HoD shenanigans you can simply exclude stacks from non hero units.

[Lysah]

So splitting the stack entirely. Interesting idea, I think it would piss a lot of people off, though. If you think the tower indicator brought tears wait until supports get free gold without even having to last hit, mmmm salty tears.

Though, honestly, literally anything that makes being a support more fun or easier is going to be met by an ocean of tears. The dota community prides itself on having a game that is frustratingly difficult to learn and play. I actually find support to be an incredibly easy role, and there are obvious reasons why the worst players on most pro teams get delegated to the role regardless of what position they play in pubs. Most of these changes affect lower level players, which do make up the majority of the population, but balancing the game around them is kind of like WoW making all raids LFR difficulty and removing mythics entirely. Only way around that would be to make all of these QoL changes unranked only, but that would piss people off too, since then it would be a fun unranked vs torture ranked environment and most people are looking to have fun AND play ranked, hence this conversation.

[StrawberryZebra]

Regretably I think doing nothing is what Valve are going to do about it. Its painfully obvious that they make changes to accomodate Pro's, in the hopes that it'll trickle down, rather than address any serious problems with solo queue directly. Its been a problem, for me at least, for years. If they were that interested in fixing it they would have done so by now. Its a shame, but there you have it.

Making Support a role people want to play is something that'll take some effort on Valve's part. Its probably not something that could really be done without changing quite a few core mechanics along the way. Other Mobas have tackled it by sharing gold for last hits for anyone in the area, removing personal XP and items altogether and everything in between.

As for possible support changes, theres a number of interesting items LoL has that allow supports to get extra gold for doing things like landing abilities on the other team, or to passively generate extra gold for themselves for creeps that die nearby. Both of which are disabled when you get last hits yourself, so its not open to abuse by others. Also noteworthy is the Sightstone, an item which has refillable wards. It would be a good place to start I feel, since both reward you for doing suitably support-orentated things and they allow skilled supports to really shine. Its not uncommon for them to out earn carries using just these two items and whatever kill/assist gold they get.

[Longview]

lmao aui_2000 back in eg

great stuff

[Kralljin]

So splitting the stack entirely. Interesting idea, I think it would piss a lot of people off, though. If you think the tower indicator brought tears wait until supports get free gold without even having to last hit, mmmm salty tears.

I think stacking a camp can be compared to last hitting, i mean you've done some work, why not get some reward directly?

Those people who are really against helping supports somehow should try the avg. Pub as solo support against 2-3 invis heroes, then come back and still say support role don't need any changes to be more enjoyable.

I actually find support to be an incredibly easy role

It's not a difficult role, it's a frustrating role in pubs.

In pro games, you see teams giving the Earth shaker some space to farm his Blink dagger, in pubs you're never going to see this, if you go for some jungle creeps some assbags even snatch you the last hits because fuck you, you're support you don't need farm.

In organized teamplay, supports are sometimes given the space to get their most basic items, because they know an Omniknight w/o Arcane Boots / Soul Ring is fucking useless, people in pubs love to ignore that and rather spam:
>We need wards.
>We need detection.

It's insane how people underestimate the value of having some like Arcane boots early on heroes such as Omni or Ogre Magi, they just perma roam around the map and help to kill stuff, without those items they can go back to reg mana / health after every gank.

[PizzaSHARK]

lmao aui_2000 back in eg

great stuff

They just need to make Fear the pos 1 again. He's better at it than most of the brats they keep hiring to do it, anyway.

[M1r4g3]

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2254685823

What a mentally exhausting game, i wish i threw it at like 15min instead of trying to win against such a fotm lineup, that even tho sucked ended up just brute forcing their way to victory.
FeelsBadMan

They should really consider checking recent hero picks when they pair up people or something, to avoid having a full random team vs full fotm team when drafts are so important these days.

[Kralljin]

What a mentally exhausting game, i wish i threw it at like 15min instead of trying to win against such a fotm lineup, that even tho sucked ended up just brute forcing their way to victory.
FeelsBadMan

They should really consider checking recent hero picks when they pair up people or something, to avoid having a full random team vs full fotm team when drafts are so important these days.

How did the Dire Team lane? Spectre + Omni probably safe; Potm roam and OD / Zeus mid, so Zeus or OD were offlane.

If Zeus or OD were Offlane, they should have been punished very hard for such a greedy offlane.

Against Spectre + Omni there is only one solution: Decent Dual lane, Omni is such a weak lane hero until he reaches lvl 4-5, which is an eternity against a dual lane that is able to deny XP, Spectre is equally useless until you get Ult to snatch kills all over the map.

Just pick Lich with anything can keeps the pressure coming, like Axe, Weaver, Abbadon and Omni + Spectre won't see the light of the day.

Against such drafts you need to grab by the nuts ASAP and finish them, there won't be a chance to come back.

Why i hate supporting:

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2261056888

Safelane Void; uses Chrono on solo pudge vs Team with Omni & Agha.

You can throw games, and then there's this shit.