Old gods doesent really feel menancing anymore *Spoilers from Chronicles*

[The Professional]

I understand where you are coming from, but there are also pictures that show him clearly not that size.

There is also the fact that in that picture he is..uncorporial? (spelling) whispy, looks like some kind of astral projection.

I dunno - in my mind Sargeras is smaller. Still huge in comparison but 'world sized'

Theres one thing making me think Sargeras really is that size in his true 120% power form. Look at the picture and see how the planet is destroyed. It is obviously destroyed with a gigantic cut which means a gigantic planet sized being did it. If the planet was just blown up in the background than that could had been a astral projection but it was clearly cut.

[Deleted]

I understand where you are coming from, but there are also pictures that show him clearly not that size.

There is also the fact that in that picture he is..uncorporial? (spelling) whispy, looks like some kind of astral projection.

I dunno - in my mind Sargeras is smaller. Still huge in comparison but 'world sized'

I'm pretty sure he can change his size depending on the situation.

Just look at Deathwing, blizzard said his dragon body would be around the size of the Chrysler building, yet in his human form he's slightly taller than a Tauren, which are averagely 3.2 meters tall. That means Deathwing changed his body size by nearly a factor of a 100.

I don't really wanna know how big Sargeras could get, he could probably be the size of a couple of planets.

[Kallisto]

The Lich King one shotted the strongest beings in the universe (players) with ZERO EFFORT.

And Illidan froze us in place while in a weakened state and gloated at us when he could have killed us with no effort. Yet no one is dumb enough to claim he is in the top 20 of powerful raid bosses in lore.

Hell Deathwing had the power to DESTROY THE DAMN WORLD during the madness fight. Those wing attacks you're essentially interrupting his cataclysm spell which would wipe out everything.

Eredar lords (Like Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden) can wipe out worlds without being on them. Or cities by just making sand castles.

Quite simply put BB. Cite in game or in other media the lore which you bring your argument. I want quest name, or book page and paragraph. Go. Oh and if you try to quote RPG books remember they're not canon.

[Friendlyimmolation]

And Illidan froze us in place while in a weakened state and gloated at us when he could have killed us with no effort. Yet no one is dumb enough to claim he is in the top 20 of powerful raid bosses in lore.

Hell Deathwing had the power to DESTROY THE DAMN WORLD during the madness fight. Those wing attacks you're essentially interrupting his cataclysm spell which would wipe out everything.

Eredar lords (Like Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden) can wipe out worlds without being on them. Or cities by just making sand castles.

Quite simply put BB. Cite in game or in other media the lore which you bring your argument. I want quest name, or book page and paragraph. Go. Oh and if you try to quote RPG books remember they're not canon.

He's just spewing shit for whatever reason, he's gone on to lying that Chronicles supports him.

[Deleted]

And Illidan froze us in place while in a weakened state and gloated at us when he could have killed us with no effort. Yet no one is dumb enough to claim he is in the top 20 of powerful raid bosses in lore.

Hell Deathwing had the power to DESTROY THE DAMN WORLD during the madness fight. Those wing attacks you're essentially interrupting his cataclysm spell which would wipe out everything.

Eredar lords (Like Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden) can wipe out worlds without being on them. Or cities by just making sand castles.

Quite simply put BB. Cite in game or in other media the lore which you bring your argument. I want quest name, or book page and paragraph. Go. Oh and if you try to quote RPG books remember they're not canon.

that is if they portray the fight like it was in TBC.

[Golden Yak]

I'm warming up to the Void Lords stuff. I didn't really like the down-grading of the Old Gods to second-bananas, but the spooky potential of the Void Lords might make up for it. We'll see going forwards.

Still think the Old Gods are rad, super happy that Hearthstone is revealing a bunch of art and info about them.

[Aucald]

The Old Gods are threats on a planetary level - a shadow-based spooling infection of an entire world's ecosystems. The Titans, and their opposite number the Void Lords, are cosmic in scope. The Old Gods are on the level of the Titan-forged Keepers, though specific power-levels seem to vary wildly between them. The Old Gods didn't diminish in scope because they were never truly a match against the actual Pantheon, only their direct servants and the armies under their command - the revelation of the Void Lords just gives the Titans a true equal and opposite in the Warcraft universe (well, aside from Sargeras himself).

[Zulkhan]

It's sort of interesting that some people prefer the "lore" when it was full of contradictions and plotlines left dangling and forgotten

It's not a coincidence that those who seems mostly "hurt" by the Chronicle book are those who quickly proves to be massively ignorant when it comes to lore, it's people who possessed little to no real knowledge and compensated such lack with tons of headcanon.

The only fault Chronicle has is building a background for Warcraft using the canon lore they don't know instead of the headcanon in their skulls.

[owbu]

It's sort of interesting that some people prefer the "lore" when it was full of contradictions and plotlines left dangling and forgotten

Not sure if people liked the contradictions, I asume they liked the mistery. Stories are usually more engaging, when you havent figured everything out yet.
Also...I feel like the threats keep getting more and more unrelatable. We had rescuing our home town. We had fighting other factions. We had saving the world from global threats. Now we were saving the universe from a somewhat humanlike (feelings/motivations) planet sized beeing. The next thing seems to be saving reality itself from the concept of entropy or something like that.

I guess its nice, that sargeras has a better backstory now. Didnt really like the whole "demons were so evil, that he got sad" thing. Now you can kinda see his point on why he wants to purge the universe. So in that regard, good job, chronicles.

[mysticx]

I understand where you are coming from, but there are also pictures that show him clearly not that size.

There is also the fact that in that picture he is..uncorporial? (spelling) whispy, looks like some kind of astral projection.

I dunno - in my mind Sargeras is smaller. Still huge in comparison but 'world sized'

The one event that shows Sargeras as even remotely "fightable size" is Aegwynn fighting him in Dragonblight, but that was "just" an avatar of Sargeras, not the real deal...

[killwithpwr]

I'm just gonna say this in the sake of this (sadly) needing to be said.

Titans, in their physical forms, are absolutely humangous.
To illustrate this, the book actually says the Titan Aman'thul just reached out and plucked Y'Shaaraj out of Azaroth like a bug.
Maybe Ya'Shaaraj is a big bug, and let's say he was big enough to fit in Aman'thul's whole hand...
Imagine that is the size of a Titans HAND.

So, yes. Sargeras is big enought to cleave a planet in 2.
Confirmed.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Behind the bad guy there is another bad guy concepts, I've grown to feel that these creatures are not nearly as menancing anymore.

The titans didn't even fight them themselves. They created titanic watchers and mogu, and they single handedly defeated them all
They don't nearly seem as powerful as they used to be

Hell, the Scourge could be a bigger threat now

Because the Scourge could take on a titan? lol
That's like saying your lvl 58 hunter is no longer afraid of Fel Reavers because he saw a level 100 pally solo one. That Fel Reaver will still stomp your carcus into the red clay of Hellfire Peninsula!

I think the Old Gods are every bit as scary as before, because 1) They've already begun corrupting Azeroth, and who knows how successful they've been? 2) Sargeras foresaw that if the Void Lords did succeed in corrupting a nascent titan, it would be catastrophic. 3) Azeroth is apparently more powerful than your typical nascent titan, so it would be even more catastrophic. 4) We now know that even Sargeras knows and respects the power of the Void Lords. 5) Even when you think you've defeated an Old God, they don't seem to stay defeated. Either they're still alive and whispering, or the Void Lords can just manifest another. For all we know, the Old Gods are like demons and can't really die unless they're killed in the void.

[Adarian]

things stop being scary when we've effectively skull-fucked one into retardation.

Lovecaft would be displeased with how pathetic the old gods in WoW are, i'd say Bloodborne to but i don't think we've met any but the lowest of the old ones.
Miyazaki is a big fan of slowly creeping horror and despair.

[SirBeef]

Did I say he wasn't? Chronicle says that purging all life is basically the collateral damage of his crusade but just because it isn't personal then it's no less terrifying.

Sarg: "Here m8, need to scour your planet of all life to prevent matter sucking entities from literally (not figuratively) eating our universe or turning it into an eternal realm of torment......nothing personal though!"

Us: "Ye np's man, go crazy."

Not seeing it somehow lol. Sargeras is still the primary antagonist of Warcraft, at least until/if we get a Dark Titan.

Was agreeing with your post to the one you quoted. Should have worded it better.

- - - Updated - - -

Changing established beliefs for over a decade into something so far left field it might as well be a new story is not good.

Pulling the curtain back in a restrained manner isnt a bad thing, but this might as well be a different game. From what I understand not having Chronicle currently, the OG's exist to now corrupt the World Soul and create some Void Titan, then why the fuck are they in-fighting for such a monumentally, universe eclipsing task, or did that get retconned too?

Established beliefs that were all interpreted wrong by species without the proper knowledge of what actually is still wrong. Established beliefs that were all head canon becasue the blanks were never filled in is still wrong. Chronicles is a good thing. The old gods, while a product of the Void Lords to corrupt Azeroth so that one day they may manifest in reality, have motives of their own.

- - - Updated - - -

things stop being scary when we've effectively skull-fucked one into retardation.

Lovecaft would be displeased with how pathetic the old gods in WoW are, i'd say Bloodborne to but i don't think we've met any but the lowest of the old ones.
Miyazaki is a big fan of slowly creeping horror and despair.

Who fucking cares what Lovecraft would think. The old gods were loosely based off of his works. I think it is better that Blizzard when their own way with them.

[Wondercrab]

The entire point of the Cthulu mythos the Old Gods are based on is the idea of mystery and the unknowable; some kind of unfathomable eldritch horror that goes beyond what mortal minds are capable of comprehending. That's what makes it so cool and scary, playing on one of the core themes of horror that is allowing the audience to scare themselves.

It's been pretty clear over the years that Blizzard don't really understand/appreciate this, or why C'thun was so cool and spooky back in AQ in the first place. When you're dealing with the idea of Lovecraftian elder gods, less is more. Subtlety is key. And, unfortunately, subtlety is something Blizzard storytelling has never really been capable of. When Faceless Ones are showing up as regular enemies for a whole expansion, when you have cthuloid vagina monsters erupting from the earth to fight dragons in a pitched battle, and when you get into deep and extensive lore explanations of what the Old Gods are and where they came from, it completely dismantles everything that makes the idea compelling and effective at its core.

Elder gods should be seldom glimpsed, rarely heard, and never, ever explained.

[Deleted]

I think the real question is, why did the Pantheon lock the OG on a Titan Core and why were the OG fighting between themselves. Arent they really weak, but if they manage to corrupt a Titan core, they become really powerfully, I get the OG were fighting about who gets to gain that power, but why did the Titans leave corupting monsters on the one thing they dont wont corrupted?
Also, do you guys realize, that with every Legion invasion, we are protecting the Titan Core AND the Old Gods, we are all already corrupt to the core, we are protecting the Old Gods from Sargeras and letting them attempt, their core corruption while they are at it.
Second also, how is Ulduar explained? Titans dont want to destroy Titan Cores but theres a fail sistem that destroys the planet?

[Qualia]

I think the real question is, why did the Pantheon lock the OG on a Titan Core and why were the OG fighting between themselves.

Because they had no other option at that time. They were in middle of a war, and Aman'thul just proved that they shouldn't kill the Old Gods in a brute force manner similar to what he did (plucking Y'Shaarj off Azeroth and left behind a big bleeding wound on the planet). They aren't wrong on the paper, seeing that even when we killed them without ripping them off Azeroth, there are still enough damage to weaken the planet to the point of causing the Cataclysm. Imprisoning the OGs does no harm to the planet, and nullify the OGs' threat completely. That system created to imprison the OGs were well-done; The OGs weren't supposed to be able to do anything other than laying in their prison harmlessly - it's only because of the chains of unfortunate events started by the Pantheon's defeat by Sargeras that it started falling apart.

Arent they really weak, but if they manage to corrupt a Titan core, they become really powerfully, I get the OG were fighting about who gets to gain that power, but why did the Titans leave corupting monsters on the one thing they dont wont corrupted?

What do you suggest them to do? Killing the OGs is NG, because it damage the world-soul. You can't move them to somewhere else either. Imprisoning them is the best choice - the OGs couldn't corrupt Azeroth while being imprisoned.
Also, they don't "become really powerful" even if they manage to corrupt the world-soul. Sargeras came across a group of OGs that succeeded in corrupting a world-soul before, but that didn't prevent him from destroying them together with that poor planet.

Also, do you guys realize, that with every Legion invasion, we are protecting the Titan Core AND the Old Gods, we are all already corrupt to the core, we are protecting the Old Gods from Sargeras and letting them attempt, their core corruption while they are at it.

Not sure what you are getting at. Should we just let the Legion do their things and destroy the planet, then? Nope, we need to deal with that threat to protect the planet, even if that action would indirectly protect the OGs on it as well. However, we already killed most of the OGs on Azeroth one by one - N'Zoth is the only one left. I wouldn't call that "letting them attempt their corruption while they are at it".

Second also, how is Ulduar explained? Titans dont want to destroy Titan Cores but theres a fail sistem that destroys the planet?

The Forge of Origination isn't a system that destroy the planet. It is a system that wipe out all life. There is a difference between life-wiping and planet-bursting. For example - look at Uldum, the same system were activated on a smaller scale. The planet was intact and unharmed, but all living beings (mogu, trolls, tolvir, plants, animals, etc.) died, leaving only a lifeless desert behind back then.

[dippinsawse]

The Forge of Origination isn't a system that destroy the planet. It is a system that wipe out all life. There is a difference between life-wiping and planet-bursting. For example - look at Uldum, the same system were activated on a smaller scale. The planet was intact and unharmed, but all living beings (mogu, trolls, tolvir, plants, animals, etc.) died, leaving only a lifeless desert behind back then.

Why didn't they just do that for the old gods then? Clearly removing the old gods takes a much higher priority over whatever other life is on the planet since it jeopardizes the entire universe to allow a single world soul to become corrupted. Choosing to take a chance by imprisoning them rather than wipe out all life seems like a major plot hole to me (though of course that is going to happen when they try to retcon/write together all of this shit at once to explain everything in one fell swoop).

[Qualia]

Why didn't they just do that for the old gods then? Clearly removing the old gods takes a much higher priority over whatever other life is on the planet since it jeopardizes the entire universe to allow a single world soul to become corrupted. Choosing to take a chance by imprisoning them rather than wipe out all life seems like a major plot hole to me (though of course that is going to happen when they try to retcon/write together all of this shit at once to explain everything in one fell swoop).

Imprisoning them wasn't a decision to leaving things to chance. It was supposed to be a 100% working system, the Pantheon and the Keepers didn't think that there was any way for the OGs to get out of their imprisonment. Look at it - the system were well-done - the OGs are imprisoned and neutralized. They couldn't do anything to Azeroth. There are groups of titan-forged army guarding them together with the Keepers - the same army that defeated the OGs at first place. The Keepers created the prisons and the enchantment, so they could fix it if needed to. There are also methods for the Keepers to contact Algalon and the Pantheon if something goes wrong and they couldn't do anything abut it. In that sense, you could say that imprisoning them does the same thing as removing them, with the benefit of not harming Azeroth any further. Remember that even killing them in our method (which left their bodies and all) still damage Azeroth, just not to the point of opening big wounds all over the planet. I'm sure that re-originating them would do the same as well - that's why it's the last option, they don't want to needlessly harm Azeroth.

The only thing allowed the OGs to corrupt the Keepers and started their prison break was the Pantheon's defeat by Sargeras' hand. Still, the Pantheon aren't omnipotent. In fact, they appeared to be quite naive even though powerful and knowledgeable - probably because they left Sargeras to do all the fighting while he was still there. Can you really blame them for not being able to foresee their own defeat? Going by the Chronicle, up until Sargeras, they didn't have any opponent that came close to matching them, much less defeating them. I doubt they even considered "well, what'd happen to this system if we are to die somewhere?"

[dippinsawse]

Imprisoning them wasn't a decision to leaving things to chance. It was supposed to be a 100% working system, the Pantheon and the Keepers didn't think that there was any way for the OGs to get out of their imprisonment. Look at it - the system were well-done - the OGs are imprisoned and neutralized. They couldn't do anything to Azeroth. There are groups of titan-forged army guarding them together with the Keepers - the same army that defeated the OGs at first place. The Keepers created the prisons and the enchantment, so they could fix it if needed to. There are also methods for the Keepers to contact Algalon and the Pantheon if something goes wrong and they couldn't do anything abut it. In that sense, you could say that imprisoning them does the same thing as removing them, with the benefit of not harming Azeroth any further. Remember that even killing them in our method (which left their bodies and all) still damage Azeroth, just not to the point of opening big wounds all over the planet. I'm sure that re-originating them would do the same as well - that's why it's the last option, they don't want to needlessly harm Azeroth.

The only thing allowed the OGs to corrupt the Keepers and started their prison break was the Pantheon's defeat by Sargeras' hand. Still, the Pantheon aren't omnipotent. In fact, they appeared to be quite naive even though powerful and knowledgeable - probably because they left Sargeras to do all the fighting while he was still there. Can you really blame them for not being able to foresee their own defeat? Going by the Chronicle, up until Sargeras, they didn't have any opponent that came close to matching them, much less defeating them. I doubt they even considered "well, what'd happen to this system if we are to die somewhere?"

That still doesn't make sense. That means they either:

1) Have such limited experience dealing with old gods that they don't know the extent of their abilities which means that believing their failsafe systems would be 100% effective was ridiculously foolish.

OR

2) They DID leave things to chance because they knew that the old gods might have the ability to seep out or influence things. They took a risk that they would be able to come back and take the ultimate course of action of wiping out life on the planet if sealing them away didn't work.

Either explanation is insanely moronic. Above all else they are supposed to care about the universe and the world soul. They risked both of their prime directives for something that doesn't even really matter to them (tertiary forms of life on the planet) just because they were either too arrogant or too stupid. A true ancient set of beings would understand better what they are fighting against or they would not be so sure of themselves and leave their solution to the issue up to such a risk of failure.

Saying that they were afraid that their ultimate failsafe of destroying all life might hurt the planet also doesn't really make sense. By leaving things up to chance the way they did it harmed the planet anyway (because of the way that we fought the old gods as you pointed out and the way that it harms the planet). Either way we have the example you also pointed out yourself with Uldum that the speculative harm caused by wiping the planet of life wouldn't leave a meaningful permanent wound on the planet. And even if it did that is a risk they would know they would have to take because protecting the rest of the universe is much more important than one planet. In the end I feel that the Chronicle itself debunks that theory because it specifically says that the failsafe was created in the event that ANY "instability" on a planet under their watch. By not using it to destroy the old gods outright they very deliberately chose not to use their best tool designed for that exact purpose and there isn't really an explanation as to why.

Also, saying that the titan's plan would have worked if not for Sargeras doesn't seem to be true. Clearly they were unaware of the Old Gods' ability to corrupt their keepers, otherwise they wouldn't have used keepers in the first place--it's a flawed system of imprisonment if it has that weakness. But at the same time they also were aware of the vulnerability of independent and primitive lifeforms because they even created the failsafe to specifically target and wipe out life. It contradicts itself.

It doesn't even make sense within their position within the universe. They are meant to be cold, calculated beings of order. Leaving things up to chance like that is the opposite. They left things open to disorder by setting a system in place that encourages chaos and the otherwise uncertain.

That's what I don't like about this. The only explanation to these retcons and forced establishment of macro lore is that, "Lol the titan's goofed". I can accept it for what it is and agree that things like this will happen when you write in a sort of "as we go" sort of way. Sometimes it can't be helped. I just don't like that people seem to think that it all makes sense and fits perfectly when there are some clear issues.