Is Marriage really that bad?

[Deleted]

I don't understand how a statistical claim can be a myth just because it doesn't account for some factors.

its not the statistical difference that is a myth, its the explanation.

[May90]

My parents are the same, and so are my grandparents. Though they are still married.

But then I look at my Aunts and Uncles, who've married and remarried numerous times. Then I look at the statistics of divorce rates currently, and I come to the conclusion that there's been a shift somewhere, we aren't our parents, and we don't see marriage the same way. I'm sure some people still do, and those that find each other and make a marriage work should be incredibly happy that they've done so, but I think the numbers are dwindling for those sorts of people, sadly.

Well, the way I see it, if it worked for our parents and grandparents, then it works for us too, we just need to find a partner that works for us. I think it is just that such things are usually taken less seriously nowadays than in the past. When my parents married, they absolutely knew they wanted to be together; they'd lived together for 2 years or so already, the decision they made was very serious and they considered it for days. Now, it is often more like, "I really like you. Wanna marry? Sure, go ahead". Then, people realize that they aren't compatible, and the problems begin...

its not the statistical difference that is a myth, its the explanation.

"Gender pay gap" doesn't imply any explanation, it is just a statistical claim. I don't remember trying to explain the gap in this thread, and the explanation really has no relation to the hypocrisy I was talking about.

What's with these triggers, with people seeing the word that triggers them and proceeding to ignore the point completely, bashing the word instead?

[Azadina]

Keyword: nowadays. It may have not been invented by religion, but it has been shaped for it by centuries. It is slowly changing, but for example even secular ceremonies can be modeled after religious ones. Though the claim it's "just" religious is off.

Nowadays where? In middle-east? Because it sure isn't that here.

[SodiumChloride]

its not the statistical difference that is a myth, its the explanation.

Speaking of explanations ...

I wonder if it's due to overly high expectations. TV keeps showing us these wild and wonderful romances that are unattainable in real life unless you are extremely lucky.

[Mehrunes]

Nowadays where? In middle-east? Because it sure isn't that here.

Yes, I'm sure marriage traditions and laws in Finland haven't been shaped by centuries of Catholicism. It all just evaporated.

"Gender pay gap" doesn't imply any explanation, it is just a statistical claim. I don't remember trying to explain the gap in this thread, and the explanation really has no relation to the hypocrisy I was talking about.

The hypocrisy only exists because you can't comprehend (or pretend to) that people's dissent with gender pay gap usually lies exactly with the explanation proposed by feminists, not the existence of potential disparity itself.

[May90]

Speaking of explanations ...
I wonder if it's due to overly high expectations. TV keeps showing us these wild and wonderful romances that are unattainable in real life unless you are extremely lucky.

I see it the other way around: fictional stories and documentaries on TV show us the dangers of marriage and make happy marriage look like unattainable in real life. It's with everything really: TV likes to scare people with refugees, criminals, terrorists, etc. Much easier to gain popularity by one more story about "impending doom", than to show something positive and friendly.

The hypocrisy only exists because you can't comprehend (or pretend to) that people's dissent with gender pay gap usually lies exactly with the explanation proposed by feminists.

What? I was talking about these two contradictory claims people make.

1. Gender pay gap is a myth.
2. Men tend to earn more than women.

Where do you see anything related to the explanation here?

[Azadina]

Yes, I'm sure marriage traditions and laws in Finland haven't been shaped by centuries of Catholicism. It all just evaporated.

You don't need to get married in church, you don't need a private wedding with priest talking of god either. You can go sign papers at legal office and there's no mention of jesus or religion anywhere in the process.

[Deleted]

Nowadays where? In middle-east? Because it sure isn't that here.

I'm not sure why you're defending marriage

It's been the institution used to domesticate and enslave women through the ages, as feminists have noted:

The nuclear family must be destroyed… Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.
- Linda Gordon

Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage.
- Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW

Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice.
- Andrea Dworkin

[Azadina]

Not sure why you're defending marriage tbh, it's been the institution used to domesticate and enslave women through the ages, as feminists have noted:

The nuclear family must be destroyed… Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.
- Linda Gordon

Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage.
- Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW

Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice.
- Andrea Dworkin

I'm not interested in your feminists views. However, I do realize what marriage was used for, and is still used in parts of the world. That doesn't mean it's reality anymore in majority of western civilization.

[SodiumChloride]

I see it the other way around: fictional stories and documentaries on TV show us the dangers of marriage and make happy marriage look like unattainable in real life. It's with everything really: TV likes to scare people with refugees, criminals, terrorists, etc. Much easier to gain popularity by one more story about "impending doom", than to show something positive and friendly.

Not really. All the horror stories I hear are from social media sites like reddit.

TV and films give us BS like The Notebook.

It's only recently do edgy comedians like Bill Burr start talking about how brutal marriage can be.

[Mehrunes]

What? I was talking about these two contradictory claims people make.

1. Gender pay gap is a myth.
2. Men tend to earn more than women.

Where do you see anything related to the explanation here?

I literally explained it in the post you quoted. I don't think you can be that obtuse, so don't play dumb. Besides, the claim in this thread was about married men being more likely to be breadwinners. There's this group of people that are *gasp* unmarried. And as even you yourself admitted, the breadwinner thing can sometimes be caused by woman being a stay at home wife. You're comparing apples to ducks.

You don't need to get married in church, you don't need a private wedding with priest talking of god either. You can go sign papers at legal office and there's no mention of jesus or religion anywhere in the process.

And the fact that it requires a ceremony in front of an official and with at least two witnesses, instead of just filling a form and submitting it to some office (like is the case with divorce papers) isn't similar to Christian ceremony at all.

[May90]

You didn't explain anything at all. I was talking about literally the claim: "Gender pay gap is a myth". This claim equals: "Gender pay gap doesn't exist". What "gender pay gap is", I already explained earlier by quoting the definition from EC, which also happens to be used by the US, and everyone else I know. If you want to express your dissent with the reasons/explanation, then phrase it differently; the phrase "Gender pay gap is a myth" means what it does, there is no way around that. Claim "men tend to earn more than women" contradicts the claim "gender pay gap is a myth", and explanation of the gap is absolutely off the point.

I don't see what's so confusing about it. Oh, no, wait, I see: "gender pay gap" is a trigger sentence that prevents people triggered by it from rational analysis.

Not really. All the horror stories I hear are from social media sites like reddit.

TV and films give us BS like The Notebook.

It's only recently do edgy comedians like Bill Burr start talking about how brutal marriage can be.

I don't know... Whenever I open some European news website (which, I assume, is similar in the information it gives us to TV news agencies; I haven't watched TV for 8 years, so I don't know for sure), it is always the same thing: "Boooo scary refugees", "Boooo scary terrorists", "Boooo scary American cops". So much negativity that, if you take all of this too seriously, you might as well just never leave your house.

[Azadina]

And the fact that it requires a ceremony in front of an official and with at least two witnesses, instead of just filling a form and submitting it to some office (like is the case with divorce papers) isn't similar to Christian ceremony at all.

"ceremony" Well if you really insist on calling it that. I attended my moms "ceremony", and it was done within minutes. As you say, it needed an official and few witnesses, and then it was done.

[Deleted]

Claim "men tend to earn more than women" contradicts the claim "gender pay gap is a myth", and explanation of the gap is absolutely off the point.

I don't see what's so confusing about it. Oh, no, wait, I see: "gender pay gap" is a trigger sentence that prevents people triggered by it from rational analysis.

It's because the term "gender pay gap" is misleading.

The pay gap is not about gender, it's about different priorities / bargaining / work hours.

Gender is not the primary determinant, although it is partly a factor, in that different genders trend slightly differently when it comes to choices and preferences

It should be called something like "work-life choices pay gap" - but then it wouldn't be such a potent hot button issue

Imagine something being called a "race pay gap" or a "physical height pay gap" or a "sexual attractiveness pay gap"

All of these pay gaps also exist statistically - because for example on the whole taller people / better-looking people / etc make more money than shorter / uglier people, but that's just part of the overall picture, not the primary determinant.

[May90]

It's because the term "gender pay gap" is misleading.

The pay gap is not about gender, it's about different priorities / bargaining / work hours.

Gender is not the primary determinant, although it is partly a factor, in that different genders trend slightly differently when it comes to choices and preferences

It should be called something like "work-life choices pay gap" - but then it wouldn't be such a potent hot button issue

Imagine something being called a "race pay gap" or a "physical height pay gap" or a "sexual attractiveness pay gap"

All of these pay gaps also exist statistically - because for example on the whole taller people make more money than shorter people, but that's just part of the overall picture, not the primary determinant.

Yes, but then what you mean should be expressed like this: "Gender pay gap caused by sexism is a myth". Not "Gender pay gap is a myth".

Regarding "race pay gap", I've seen it used quite a lot, actually (maybe in a bit different wording).

[Polar1]

I am talking about the divorce aspect of it. I am biased, but I always hear that Women always win in a divorce and they usually get ex husband's home, money, car, Is this true and why? This just scares me to get married.

Getting married just brings society into your marriage either through the state or a church. And when that happens it's because a marriage is a commitment to someone else that involves rights and obligations. In the case of divorce society seeks compensation for the spouse who was wronged or who had to sacrifice the development of his or her survivability for the benefit of the marriage. It doesn't need to be the woman. In my 20s, it was always in benefit of the woman. Nowadays I hear more and more cases of the guy getting the compensation.

Besides money, there is the matter of custody. Normally the woman gets the custody of kids, and the guy needs to pay alimony. There's still areas of improvement.

You shouldn't be scared of getting married. But you need to make sure that you get married for the right reasons. You will get divorced if you marry just for the sex part. You will get divorced if you marry for tax subsidies, social benefits. You will get divorced if you marry someone you think will make less than an optimal parent, or that you can't live with after years. You will get divorced if you don't realize before saying "I do" that once you have kids the human brain changes and you will live for your offspring, and you will not be the center of attention of your spouse.

If you have all of the above clear and understood then it's no scarier than an extreme sport: you know the risks, you prevent them and engage. If you don't, you become a divorce statistic and may have to pay half your life away.

Also, marry-up. Never marry-down. And I am not speaking of money.

[Azadina]

You didn't explain anything at all. I was talking about literally the claim: "Gender pay gap is a myth". This claim equals: "Gender pay gap doesn't exist". What "gender pay gap is", I already explained earlier by quoting the definition from EC, which also happens to be used by the US, and everyone else I know. If you want to express your dissent with the reasons/explanation, then phrase it differently; the phrase "Gender pay gap is a myth" means what it does, there is no way around that. Claim "men tend to earn more than women" contradicts the claim "gender pay gap is a myth", and explanation of the gap is absolutely off the point.

I don't see what's so confusing about it. Oh, no, wait, I see: "gender pay gap" is a trigger sentence that prevents people triggered by it from rational analysis.

It seems to go like this:

Gender pay gap = feminist lies
Patriarchy = feminist lies
Then we get to the fun part: woman always takes half of mans fortune. Funny how the causes somehow do not exist, but the result of those non existant causes then exist in the minds of some guys here.

[Mehrunes]

You didn't explain anything at all. I was talking about literally the claim: "Gender pay gap is a myth". This claim equals: "Gender pay gap doesn't exist". What "gender pay gap is", I already explained earlier by quoting the definition from EC, which also happens to be used by the US, and everyone else I know. If you want to express your dissent with the reasons/explanation, then phrase it differently; the phrase "Gender pay gap is a myth" means what it does, there is no way around that. Claim "men tend to earn more than women" contradicts the claim "gender pay gap is a myth", and explanation of the gap is absolutely off the point.

I don't see what's so confusing about it. Oh, no, wait, I see: "gender pay gap" is a trigger sentence that prevents people triggered by it from rational analysis.

Which part of "people's dissent with gender pay gap usually lies with it's explanation by feminists" can't you fucking understand? And gender pay gap is almost always discussed in the feminist framework. So when someone says it is a myth, it's the feminist portrayal that is a myth, because it makes zero sense. You quoted a definition from European Commission, good for you. Want a pat on the head or something? That is totally the framework in which gender pay gap is usually discussed and, consequently, criticized on these forums. I'm sure that was the case in the thread you were referring to in your irrelevant comparison and appeal to ridicule. And weirdly enough, even Department of Labor's findings on 4% gap weren't conclusive about whether or not these remaining 4% could also not be attributed to something. They certainly couldn't attribute them to discrimination though, which is the feminism's argument.

Also, as I already added in previous post in an edit, you're dishonestly twisting the claim made in this thread. Which, you know, was about men statistically being more likely to be breadwinners of their households. There's this group of people that's not married. #NotAllMen And as even you yourself admitted, the breadwinner thing can sometimes be caused by woman being a stay at home wife. Your comparison has more holes than the deity of Swiss cheese.

[SodiumChloride]

I don't know... Whenever I open some European news website (which, I assume, is similar in the information it gives us to TV news agencies; I haven't watched TV for 8 years, so I don't know for sure), it is always the same thing: "Boooo scary refugees", "Boooo scary terrorists", "Boooo scary American cops". So much negativity that, if you take all of this too seriously, you might as well just never leave your house.

They don't go boo marriage though ...

(Primarily because it's politically incorrect.)

[Mehrunes]

"ceremony" Well if you really insist on calling it that. I attended my moms "ceremony", and it was done within minutes. As you say, it needed an official and few witnesses, and then it was done.

It was http://www.infopankki.fi/en/living-i...amily/marriage that called it that. Call it a cucumber if you want though, doesn't change the fact there's still religious influence on how it works.