Why don't refugees stay and fight

[Mihalik]

They stayed and fought. They were men, they weren't cowards like these military aged male "refugees", just looking for handouts and free welfare.

I'll just quote myself.

The idiocy is abundant in this thread.

Historically speaking, vast majority of people living through past wars NEVER fought for their countries.

Conscription was a relatively new and rarely used tool. Taking peasants off the fields, miners out of mines, blacksmiths away from their furnaces would guarantee economic collapse.

For much recent history, most of the fighting was typically done by professional soldiers or warrior casts. Only small percentages of a population has ever actively engaged in prolonged warfare.

Mass mobilization and conscription only made possible by industrialization and strong states.

People didn't spontaneously organized themselves into armies. They typically are organized by a state which provides the infrastructure that ranges from logistics to communication, overall strategy, command and control etc.

Even in the examples used by some numbnuts above with Finland standing up to the USSR, they ignore the fact the the Finish state actually made all that possible by organizing the population in a fighting force.

Will to fight alone is insufficient. Simply it doesn't work like that.

In Syria such structures are only provided by organizations like ISIS, Al Nusra or Assad. Most refugees are fleeing all this madness.

[Deleted]

It obviously isn't.

The overwhelming majority of these supposed "refugees" are military aged men who are cowards who abandoned their mothers, sisters, and wives for free welfare in Europe.

It's a disgrace.

It really is a disgrace you arent banned yet.

[Granyala]

But to demand that a person which hears bombs exploding every day fights (for whom and against whom, by the way?), risking their life and their relatives' - while living yourself in the first world - is pretty cold blooded and immoral. It is like a billionaire from Norway telling a starving kid in Africa, "Go work for your food, stop complaining!"

Absolutely.
But what I want to display is that if we want to keep our comfy western lifestyle, we need a modicum of coldness.

Caring only about a handful of refugees that somehow manage to cross our borders while not caring about the millions and millions of other 3rd world people is hypocritical at best.

[Daelak]

Absolutely.
But what I want to display is that if we want to keep our comfy western lifestyle, we need a modicum of coldness.

Caring only about a handful of refugees that somehow manage to cross our borders while not caring about the millions and millions of other 3rd world people is hypocritical at best.

This is the largest war migration since WW2. It isn't a 'handful'.

[Super Friendly Kitty Cat]

A solid majority were forcibly press ganged and conscripted, not that I expect some Drumpf loving twat to know their history. You are the ultimate exercise in futility.

They still stayed and defended their country, and not all were forcefully conscripted. Sure, during war if needed men will be conscripted, but if you understand actual history the Russians absolutely hated the Germans and were passionate to defend their homeland from German forces.

I am sure you believe some other narrative, but facts are facts.

[Joathen]

Ofc not all Jews did returned to their promised land, I never said thay did. All I said was that Palestinians land were taken and given to them, shortly after the war.

So what kind of parallel are you drawing here? What relevance does that have? I don't agree with the formation of the Israeli state and I detest the United States blind support for them now, I also see no bearing any of that has on the current discussion.

[Deleted]

Absolutely.
But what I want to display is that if we want to keep our comfy western lifestyle, we need a modicum of coldness.

Caring only about a handful of refugees that somehow manage to cross our borders while not caring about the millions and millions of other 3rd world people is hypocritical at best.

You're seeing recent actions as a "choice" we are taking. It's not. 5 million people are on the move from syria only and key countries that were able to control migrant flows like libya have been destabilized. It's not a choice. They come here and we cant sink their boats. Pretty much. Anyone telling you different is making a political stand.

[Super Friendly Kitty Cat]

It really is a disgrace you arent banned yet.

Sharing an opinion that differs from yours should be banned?

[Independent voter]

Refugees don't stay and fight for the same reason Iraq turned into chaos once it was liberated.

People who live in Iraq and Syria don't believe they are citizens, they believe they are occupied by a tyrant who uses terror against them to keep them in their place. Government in those places isn't for the people, it's a foreign occupier.

So you're not fighting for your country because it isn't your country.

[Deleted]

They still stayed and defended their country, and not all were forcefully conscripted. Sure, during war if needed men will be conscripted, but if you understand actual history the Russians absolutely hated the Germans and were passionate to defend their homeland from German forces.

I am sure you believe some other narrative, but facts are facts.

People even point stuff out to you and you still go on with that. Like I said, read some books.

[Deleted]

Sharing an opinion that differs from yours should be banned?

Insulting people like you are doing should definitely get you banned. If I said half the shit you are saying id be banned now. Im surprised i still aint to be honest.

[markos82]

Of course I agree that the US played a large role behind it; I just don't see why you brought that up in a discussion about what the refugees are fleeing from. It's like saying people are running from the gun, not the shooter.

Countries were wary and aware about Germany's militarization in both WWs far before the first shot, they just tiptoe'd around it and hoped it would go away until it was too late. At the very least after Poland the cards where on the table, but looking at the timeline there still isn't an excuse for many countries to act suprised.

Because every actions has reaction, you can't deny that.


Ofc and Stalin played it brilliant by using the Molotov–Ribbentrop pact to strengthen soviet military, build roads and fortify the wast SSSR lands. Other countries, small countries, couldnt do such thing.

[Deleted]

Oh he'll read a book alright, "Crippled America: How to Make America Great Again" by Donald Trump. That's about the extent of his literary breadth.

Does it come with easy to follow color illustrations?

[Joathen]

They still stayed and defended their country, and not all were forcefully conscripted. Sure, during war if needed men will be conscripted, but if you understand actual history the Russians absolutely hated the Germans and were passionate to defend their homeland from German forces.

I am sure you believe some other narrative, but facts are facts.

"During the Great Patriotic War, the Red Army conscripted 29,574,900 men in addition to the 4,826,907 in service at the beginning of the war."

But hey, history is the best narrative am I right?

[Deleted]

Because it's a lot easier to come to the west and shout "Racism! Nazis!" when you don't get the free stuff you think you deserve.

[Granyala]

You're seeing recent actions as a "choice" we are taking. It's not. 5 million people are on the move from syria only and key countries that were able to control migrant flows like libya have been destabilized. It's not a choice. They come here and we cant sink their boats. Pretty much. Anyone telling you different is making a political stand.

Of course it's a choice.
We could just as well shoot everybody that tries to cross our borders. That too would be a choice.
Obviously the wrong one for a number of reasons, but it would theoretically be possible.

We choose to help these people as best we can.

[Super Friendly Kitty Cat]

"Order No. 270, dated August 16, 1941, was issued by Joseph Stalin. The order required superiors to shoot deserters on the spot. Their family members were subjected to arrest. Order No. 227, dated July 28, 1942, directed that each Army must create "blocking detachments" (barrier troops) which would shoot "cowards" and fleeing panicked troops at the rear. During World War II, the Soviets executed 158,000 soldiers for desertion."

Just wild speculation eh? So much for ur "mother russia" claims. I'm surprised that even 160 000 soldiers were executed because the stakes in actually fleeing are so high that i most that were scared probably never even tried to run. Some must've been extremely desperate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertion

Being killed or sentenced to death for desertion was pretty common in the armed forces at that time. Not sure what your point is.

They still conscripted well over 23 million Russian citizens into the army, and the vast majority freely joined to defend their country. I am pretty sure if 23 million conscripted Russian soldiers didn't want to be there they would have revolted.

[markos82]

So what kind of parallel are you drawing here? What relevance does that have? I don't agree with the formation of the Israeli state and I detest the United States blind support for them now, I also see no bearing any of that has on the current discussion.

Parallel to what? All i said by quoting you is that strong country sets the rules.

[Deleted]

Of course it's a choice.
We could just as well shoot everybody that tries to cross our borders. That too would be a choice.
Obviously the wrong one for a number of reasons, but it would theoretically be possible.

We choose to help these people as best we can.

Not talking theoretically.

[Krille]

Being killed or sentenced to death for desertion was pretty common in the armed forces at that time. Not sure what your point is.

They still conscripted well over 23 million Russian citizens into the army, and the vast majority freely joined to defend their country. I am pretty sure if 23 million conscripted Russian soldiers didn't want to be there they would have revolted.

Because your point was they fought for their homeland? And it's incredibly naive to think that these rules/laws didnt prohibit a large amount of russians to desert their army. So claiming they did it for "the country" is basically bullshit as they had to or die and get their familys sent to prison.