[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Deleted]

<StartShitStorm>

Is the Holy Trinity really necessary? People keep tell me that it's a zergfest with no mechanics without HT.

This just popped up on my YT homepage,



There looks like there are mechanics to me - simple ones but hey it's a new game; can't throw players in the deep end of the pool at the start.

Mechanics-wise, if you played WoW or FFXIV, it's nothing new. We already do that and those said mechanics are what make bosses hard.

So what does the Holy Trinity have to do with things? You can make challenging content without it.

</StartShitStorm>

PS: I know this forum is quite conservative. Let's just talk about this and don't assume anyone is advocating anything. Please.

This was incredibly boring :P
Not bashing the game but that's how I view it

[SodiumChloride]

Again though, I do have to kinda agree with BD in that I would not like to see this, or any systems like it, in FFXIV and this -is- a FFXIV forum, so it is kinda out of place to talk about it here. I really like FFXIV the way it is, I just wish I had the time to commit to it.

I'm just going to ignore him.

Apparently he can't read.

PS: I know this forum is quite conservative. Let's just talk about this and don't assume anyone is advocating anything. Please.

We can't talk of other forms of combat design in contrast to FFXIV's?

- - - Updated - - -

When mobs take enough damage they throw out orbs, running over that orb heals you. Not entirely sure what support classes actually do yet as I have not been playing very long at all, but it appears to be mostly buffs/debuffs and of course, damage.

That's an interest mechanic adapted from platformers ...

[Lathais]

I'm just going to ignore him.

Apparently he can't read.



Can we not talk of other forms of combat design in contrast to FFXIV's?

- - - Updated - - -



That's an interest mechanic adapted from platformers ...

In a general gaming forums, perhaps. In an off-topic forum, perhaps. In a FFXIV sub-forum though? I don't really think it is entirely appropriate, especially not in a mega-thread. Perhaps in it's own topic.

Edit to add:
I also like how I actually did discuss variances to the system and you completely ignored all of that and just focused in on that one thing I said at the end. Funny how that works, you say you want to discuss, then discussion is brought up and you focus on the drama part.

[SodiumChloride]

In a general gaming forums, perhaps. In an off-topic forum, perhaps. In a FFXIV sub-forum though? I don't really think it is entirely appropriate, especially not in a mega-thread. Perhaps in it's own topic.

Edit to add:
I also like how I actually did discuss variances to the system and you completely ignored all of that and just focused in on that one thing I said at the end. Funny how that works, you say you want to discuss, then discussion is brought up and you focus on the drama part.

It's not technically off-topic ... what else is there to talk about if you ban discussion on variations to game mechanics.

As for the rest of your post ... the only thing I got from it was the orbs. Otherwise, it's just an ultra weak form of HT ... and I don't really have much to say about it.

[Katchii]

This was incredibly boring :P
Not bashing the game but that's how I view it

The PvE scene in Black Desert is pretty terrible. The character class mechanics and abilities are amazing, the feel of stringing together combos and attacks is awesome, the animations and artwork are incredibly well done, and the controls are fantastic though they take a while to get used to. However, the enemy AI is absolutely braindead retarded so all of that combat ability each class has is meaningless in a PvE setting since you can just hold left click attack down and circle strafe around everything to kill it. Some of the larger world bosses are a LITTLE more involved, but that's it.

Holy Trinity of classes is much more fun IMO. Because even in a game that doesn't have it, the same roles get assigned to people anyway, even in GW2...someone has to tank and someone is responsible for healing at any one time. Sure everyone CAN do it, but if everyone was actually doing it in every fight it would be ridiculous.

While it's not explicitly necessary, I get much more enjoyment from games and classes with well defined roles, job/ class aesthetics, abilities/ tool sets.

[Advent]

I often wonder why there hasn't been an MMO with a robust action combat style but had a hard trinity. Imagine the possibilities.

[threads]

i prefer holy trinity for pve based games.

i feel like action combat in blade and soul and what i'm assuming BDO does is better suited for pvp.

[Granyala]

Actually, there is a soft-tank mechanic in gw2. In which the player with the highest toughness stat gets the aggro. This isn't really important in the regular game but it is rather important in raids.
Also, even though the game still doesn't have a hard trinity, healing is pretty important in the game nowadays. The new areas are pretty punishing if you go at it solo. The fun thing is that everyone can chime in and support each other rather than having one or two dedicated healers.
/goes back to lurking

good info, thanks.
As I already stated: I haven't followed GW2 for quite some time now.

I figured players who have taken too much non-avoidable damage will just run to a safe spot to heal up. The gameplay is in when to retreat.

IMHO encounters should not have these safe zones. Else it will be a back and forth zergfest.

- - - Updated - - -

Also about tank swaps ... isn't that like the only worthwhile mechanic for tanks?

Yeah .. well to be honest: there isn't that much that can be done with tanks.
-dynamic mob positioning: imagine a boss that does both beneficial and bad AoEs, tanks responsibility would be to turn the boss accordingly (SUCK IT MELEEs!)
-tank swap
-Add control
-Active mitigation (ie: use CD when tankbuster is inc)

Apart from that, a tank is nothing more than a weaker DPS with more life.

[Granyala]

This was incredibly boring :P
Not bashing the game but that's how I view it

Looks like a mindless clusterfuck to me.

But it's always difficult to judge something like this from a video. Esp if one is not familiar with the game.

- - - Updated - - -

I often wonder why there hasn't been an MMO with a robust action combat style but had a hard trinity. Imagine the possibilities.

Didn't TERA try something like this?

Even as a Cleric I was running around actually targeting people instead of unit frames.

[SodiumChloride]

I often wonder why there hasn't been an MMO with a robust action combat style but had a hard trinity. Imagine the possibilities.

Possibilities like?

- - - Updated - - -

IMHO encounters should not have these safe zones. Else it will be a back and forth zergfest.

Don't see how strategy retreat to tend your wounds = zergfest ...

[Edge-]

Didn't TERA try something like this?

Even as a Cleric I was running around actually targeting people instead of unit frames.

Yeah. No hard targeting in TERA though, so you'd have to place AoE's/mouseover to lock onto folks. Though I rarely hard target folks in FFXIV with mouseover macro's so I guess it's not that much different : P

[Lathais]

Looks like a mindless clusterfuck to me.

But it's always difficult to judge something like this from a video. Esp if one is not familiar with the game.

- - - Updated - - -


Didn't TERA try something like this?

Even as a Cleric I was running around actually targeting people instead of unit frames.

Tera, DCUO, Skyforge...I am sure there are others, all feel a lot more action oriented and require even tanks to dodge most hits. I'd say even SWtOR had a semi-action feel to it, as most enemies came in small weak packs that were not tanked. In fact, when I played that game at launch I leveled pretty much entirely with a static group, even out questing. As a tank, I felt pretty worthless most of the time, until it came time to do group content.

[Granyala]

Don't see how strategy retreat to tend your wounds = zergfest ...

Because it is.
PvE encounters are about defeating a boss within a confined space w/o access to out of combat perks or extended regen breaks.

If I can just hop into the safe zone to heal me back up, any avoidable damage that doesn't outright kill me becomes irrelevant.

- - - Updated - - -

As a tank, I felt pretty worthless most of the time, until it came time to do group content.

Outside of group content I feel worthless in FF too.

In WoW I can just gobble up a ton of mobs, in FF that's not really viable.

It gets worse on healer classes. >.<

[Faroth]

<StartShitStorm>

Is the Holy Trinity really necessary? People keep tell me that it's a zergfest with no mechanics without HT.

This just popped up on my YT homepage,

There looks like there are mechanics to me - simple ones but hey it's a new game; can't throw players in the deep end of the pool at the start.

Mechanics-wise, if you played WoW or FFXIV, it's nothing new. We already do that and those said mechanics are what make bosses hard.

So what does the Holy Trinity have to do with things? You can make challenging content without it.

</StartShitStorm>

Okay... it's a stationary version of Steropes from the Coerthas Central Highlands FATE "The Eyes Have It."

It has 2 abilities to avoid, same as Steropes. Stationary means no tanks are needed. And there are no adds to worry about.

And this one has a bajillion more HP if it takes 3-4 dozen people 15 minutes to kill him doing the same 2 avoidances over and over and over and over.

I'm not sure what the shitstorm is.

But hey, if it's someone's cup of tea, there it is. I prefer the trinity systems and XIV's is the right balance of flexibility with it for me.

Black Desert is getting some decent word of mouth, so there ya go. Game offering the type of comabt being suggested. Take it up and play it, imo. I'd check it out if I had time, but 1.5 MMOs is enough for me (FFXIV & Division..... with Uncharted 4 and Star Fox Zero about to come out as well -_- )

Because it is.
PvE encounters are about defeating a boss within a confined space w/o access to out of combat perks or extended regen breaks.

If I can just hop into the safe zone to heal me back up, any avoidable damage that doesn't outright kill me becomes irrelevant.

Moreso if the mob is stationary.

[Edge-]

Tera, DCUO, Skyforge...I am sure there are others, all feel a lot more action oriented and require even tanks to dodge most hits.

DCUO and Skyforge of more of a hybrid action combat system. You can dodge telegraphed attacks, which are more common than standard static combat games, but both have autoattacks that you simply need to mitigate.

I'd say even SWtOR had a semi-action feel to it, as most enemies came in small weak packs that were not tanked.

Not in the slightest, SWTOR is very much a standard tab-target static combat MMO a la WoW/FFXIV/Rift etc.

As a tank, I felt pretty worthless most of the time, until it came time to do group content.

That's how the majority of MMO's nowadays are designed. Open world content is designed for solo play, so tanks/healers aren't necessary or even that much of a boon for the most part, unless you're doing some AoE play.

[Aruhen]

I personally would never play a game that didn't have the "holy trinity" for a long time unless its genuinely good. I just love predefined roles like defender, damage dealer, support and the fantasy behind that.

The game that I most enjoyed without any real predefined roles was Ragnarok Online but that is a different game in every way. I will say BSO does look good but not because of its combat, that part actually looks boring for me, its the world which looks really immersive. It also doesn't seem to be just around raiding which my god I hope goes away as the primary thing in MMOs.

[Lathais]

DCUO and Skyforge of more of a hybrid action combat system. You can dodge telegraphed attacks, which are more common than standard static combat games, but both have autoattacks that you simply need to mitigate.



Not in the slightest, SWTOR is very much a standard tab-target static combat MMO a la WoW/FFXIV/Rift etc.



That's how the majority of MMO's nowadays are designed. Open world content is designed for solo play, so tanks/healers aren't necessary or even that much of a boon for the most part, unless you're doing some AoE play.

All I said was that they feel a lot more action oriented, you even quoted it. I did not realize that simply having autoattacks made it automatically not an action game.

Also, while the combat in SWtOR may be tab-target standard combat, it feels different. Instead of having single enemies, there are packs. I know that doesn't immediately make it an action game, but it does make it feel more action like, at least to me. Fighting packs of 5-10 enemies feels a lot different than chain pulling 1-2 mobs at a time, which is what you see in WoW/FFXIV/Rift. Sure, some classes have great AoE potential and can wrangle up several mobs at once, if they don't leash.

[SodiumChloride]

Because it is.
PvE encounters are about defeating a boss within a confined space w/o access to out of combat perks or extended regen breaks.

If I can just hop into the safe zone to heal me back up, any avoidable damage that doesn't outright kill me becomes irrelevant.

I'm assuming players in BDO have in-combat means to regen HP.

Retreating to recover HP is a thing in a good many games - the strategy is in when and where to pull back.

It's by no means a "zergfest". At the very least it's more interactive then having a 3rd party fill up your HP for you. >.>

[Fadewind]

Honestly, GW2 would benefit more from having a holy trinity. Okay, well...giving tanks the ability to aggro. The game was supposed to be around the holy trinity not being necessary for encounters, but not useless. Basically, you can have 5 DPS and still win even if it's harder. (Which they nailed down..sorta), but doing tank, healer, DPS was supposed to be "safer." (Which they failed by having poor tank mechanics...even if tank builds were rather okay). I did a lot of level 50 Fractals so...being pure DPS didn't always benefit as much as sacrificing some for utility. (That said, I did them mostly as a Mesmer.)

Even after that and going back to play WoW, FFXIV is my favorite in terms of group design. Tanking isn't easy. Or at least not straight forward as Charge->Thunderclap->sleep. Making the usual generator for the second-most amount of aggro (IMO) is great design. They aren't intentionally pulling more aggro than necessary. They're trying to keep the group alive. It makes me want to make sure that I do have aggro. (Yes, a few times in WoW, I was okay with a DPS dying because they weren't paying attention.) Even though I *HATE* that level syncing blocks out abilities, I understand it. It sucks going into anything pre-30 on a WAR/DRK as I don't have as good of an aggro regen without my tank stance. But, I know most of those dungeons forwards, backwards, and both ways with my eyes closed.

Sadly, the only group healing I've tried is using a scholar. I say sadly as...I liked how damn hectic it was, but there's no way I can pull that off with a controller. Probably eventually level up an AST or WHM after BLM. I like how the game was built in mind with healers having to do DPS in a group.

As for solo'ing...it's still not as brutal as Aion with a Ranger. At least at release. Or...some of RIFT's classes...at release. That said, I've only solo'd with a conjurer up to level 15. So...no clue on healing. Tanking, it's a bit slow for WAR...until...FEL CLEAVE! Mmm, so good.

[Wrecktangle]

I find myself very torn on this subject.

I am a HUGE fan of the Holy Trinity, however if any of you have paid attention to my previous posts you'd know that I'm really enjoying BNS right now and also had a blast just mauling stuff in C9. I love action combat, think Devil May Cry, etc, so in an MMO format it definitely catches my eye.

I haven't tried BDO yet because it looked a little bit too raw for me, and I honestly didn't care for the class archetypes except Valkyrie and it wasn't out yet.

I'm not 100% sure how I would envision a HT action combat system, however I love the idea of it. BNS definitely has the tank/dps part of it, but the healer aspect is definitely not well developed, if you could say it even is at all. I.e. as an Assassin I can tank briefly, but eventually I'll be in a bad spot and out of defensive tools. A Blade Master, Destroyer, or Kung-Fu Master have much better defensive tools than I do that enable them to tank. (or if you have a scummoner in your group, their cat can basically tank for 66% of the time with no penalty).

As far as retreating to heal, this is incredibly common in BNS. I don't see anything wrong with it. If anything the bigger issue is that ranged classes don't have to deal with it and that aspect is unfair. There is an enemy in BNS called a Terror. Let me just say it's an INCREDIBLY fitting name, especially for any melee class.

One thing that I actually like is that BNS has 6 man dungeons and 4 man dungeons. In 6 man you get loot, and decent loot too. The bosses have telegraphs, etc.

In 4 man, they do more damage, and the telegraphs are all gone. You have to pay attention to animations and make educated decisions to stay alive. As a reward you not only receive more loot, but better loot.

I think FF14 could do something like this. Imagine an A1S where the lasers had no telegraphs, or the poison bombs. It'd be similar to the twisters of T5, where you don't have the visual guides to help you, but have to pay attention to surroundings to know what areas are/were safe.

That'd be one way they could easily shift the difficulty differences from DPS checks to mechanics. Do it on normal, learn the ranges, timings, then go into savage knowing you won't have those guides.