No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Mafic]

That's all part of what I'm talking about when I say the overall quality of the game. I think most people would agree that the leveling experience of WoD was some of the best leveling content WoW has ever seen. However, too much of the game is spent at level cap during the "end game" phase. So when I say that quality was sacrificed, that's what I'm talking about. Also, keep in mind that this is almost certainly why WoD saw such tremendous box sales and jumps in subscribers, followed by an equally tremendous drop in subs shortly after.

Blizzard advertised WoD heavily in order to spike initial sales, then failed to maintain the game. So I ask you again: Is this this the type of behavior that you want to see out of Blizzard in the future? Because that's what pre-ordering or jumping on the bandwagon right at launch does. It tells Blizzard "Hey, I don't give a shit about what you do a few months down the road as long as you give me some good stuff now". They get your money, then don't have to continue trying to maintain the quality. WoD did exactly that.

I didn't like the leveling experience of WoD.

It was way more linear than Cata. And Cata at least had a more interesting story despite it being linear and in a comic book format. Outside of the starting zones in WoD the storylines were kooky and all messed up. And remember the starting zones of WoD were redone to mirrior past expansion starting zones (cohesive story + underlying quests with an overarching quest that leads to the culmination of the zone).

In terms of leveling zones this is how I rank them:

1. BC
2. WotLK
3. MoP
4. Cata
5. WoD

With Legion, I would rank the zones ahead of Cata and WoD but can't justify Legion zones being ahead of BC, WotLK, or MoP because they are simply not enough zones and they are too short.

This is why the no flying stance till "later" doesn't make sense as players will consume the tiny Broken Isles fairly quickly. I would argue far more quickly than content starved WoD.

[Connll]

I didn't like the leveling experience of WoD.

It was way more linear than Cata. And Cata at least had a more interesting story despite it being linear and in a comic book format. Outside of the starting zones in WoD the storylines were kooky and all messed up. And remember the starting zones of WoD were redone to mirrior past expansion starting zones (cohesive story + underlying quests with an overarching quest that leads to the culmination of the zone).

In terms of leveling zones this is how I rank them:

1. BC
2. WotLK
3. MoP
4. Cata
5. WoD

With Legion, I would rank the zones ahead of Cata and WoD but can't justify Legion zones being ahead of BC, WotLK, or MoP because they are simply not enough zones and they are too short.


This is why the no flying stance till "later" doesn't make sense as players will consume the tiny Broken Isles fairly quickly. I would argue far more quickly than content starved WoD.

To be honest I rather liked the story in the starting Zones of WoD plus Arak. The others, not so much. (Garrosh´s role, or lack of a role, in Nagrand, and Orgrim´s schizofrenia in Talador, for example)

Which makes WoD even sadder, as we had a glimpse of what it could have been.

[SirCowdog]

If you don't like travelling through a fantasy world full of monsters then maybe you shouldn't play open world fantasy games. If the only thing that made WoW bearable was the ability to fly over and ignore large parts then there must be games more suited to your preferences.

1) That didn't answer the question.

2) It's not a matter of not wanting to travel. The world created by Blizzard is full of flying monsters and allies. We have wizards, dragons, griffons, portals, AND steampunk style airships. Quite frankly, it's more absurd to ground the players than to let them fly. The immersion argument has been gone over so many times that it's surprising that you'd use it. Up until WoD, I enjoyed Wow BECAUSE of the environment, lore, and fantasy that INCLUDED FLYING. It's WoD that's out of place here.

People keep throwing out the five million figure as if it magically makes their opinions correct. You're either deliberately ignoring the context of those losses, the massive spike beforehand, or you think WoD with flying would completely reverse the downward trend WoW has shown since WotLK ended.

I was referring to the overall plan and design for WoD. I did not mean to imply that no-flying was solely responsible for the loss of 5 million subs. You've been involved with this argument with me long enough to know that I don't believe that.

To clarify: I was talking about the entire plan of WoD, part of which included no-flying. Blizzard talked a lot about the design philosophy for WoD, and how much immersion and good presentation was going to waste because flight would circumvent it. My point is that what they were trying to sell us on didn't match up to what they delivered. So if we're going to lose flight, then there should have been a payoff in either quality or quantity. We got neither. So where's the benefit?

If you've been following what Blizz have said or this thread you have seen several explanations, you have just chosen to dismiss them because you disagree instead of accepting that different people like different things and it is unreasonable to expect a game with as many players as WoW to always be suitable for your particular preferences.

I have heard and read reasons which don't hold up under scrutiny or logic. I did not dismiss them out of hand. Blizzard tells us that removing flight will allow us to make a better game. What about WoD was better? Can you even answer that? I can.

Leveling was arguably better, but leveling generally does not have flight.

End game? What about sitting in a facebook clicker game is better that flying around the open world? Apexis grind and Tanaan are no better or worse than any other daily timesink.

Dungeons and raids? WoD has the least amount of dungeons, and the least amount of raid bosses of any expansion to date.

Professions? Don't make me laugh. Garrison again.


But to be completely objective and fair, all of that isn't really any better or worse than any other end-game design for previous expansions. But that's kind of the point here: Blizzard removed flight to supposedly improve the experience then, AT BEST, shipped the same ol business as usual. So, again: Where's the benefit to the player? What was GAINED by removing flight?

[Powpowpowpow]

in a way it could be a good thing?

[Fabinas]

You mean, apart from all the times they did? Are we ignoring those times?

In my previous post on this thread i explained specifically that all flying content was just ground content in areas reachable only by flight. My comment is against @SirCowdog 's shitty (for wow, not in general for other games) ideas.

[rda]

And I've explained in this thread why I think that's bollocks. The biggest complaint about WoD was how quickly the content stopped being rewarding which is why Tanaan gives better rewards for Apexis and heroic dungeons now give valour. If they wanted to increase the amount of time people had to spend in the world they could increase mob health, the number of things you have to kill/collect/use and open up more than one daily zone per day, all of which would have been less controversial and more effective at "milking" the content present in the game.

I started writing a reply, then realized we talked about this before two or three times already (your point is a complete non-starter, they *did* many things other than removing flying in order to prolong content, I gave you several big examples; that you think some of the things they didn't do they should have done before removing flying doesn't count for anything, etc), so I will just pass.

You think you can bring it down to the level of "it's all opinions, there's no right or wrong, bla bla bla", then use that spell on every argument to turn it into trash, go ahead. It is perfectly clear what's happening with the removal / delay of flying in WoD / Legion, if you want to be stubborn and refuse to see it, your loss. When we had the big thread in the beta of MoP, it bothered me enough so that I'd write at length and talk at length, and we'd have long back and forths, and after quite a few pages some people would finally see it. Not anymore, now I will just pass.

- - - Updated - - -

in a way it could be a good thing?

Have fun doing world quests (90% travel, thanks in big part to no flying).

[Alfakennyone]

Have fun doing world quests (90% travel, thanks in big part to no flying).

Well, there are flight paths. lol


No flying makes you more immersed with players, instead of mounting up and taking off to point B.

Just need 7.0 to come already

[rda]

Well, there are flight paths. lol


No flying makes you more immersed with players, instead of mounting up and taking off to point B.

Just need 7.0 to come already

90% travel is with flight paths, yes. Without flight paths, it'd have been worse.

Enjoy being immersed.

[kamuimac]

No flying makes you more immersed with players, instead of mounting up and taking off to point B.

how the f.... runing in straight line and just kiting mobs behind you untill you loose agro by the time you hit point B makes it "immersive" - nobody will give a single f... about world all people will do will be cursing at blizz for making their life artificially harder just so they can justify puting so much $ into grpahic enviroment that 99 % of players dont care in the endgame. just wait and see how hge failure suramar will end up and how blizzard will just give up and add gear quests in there too because nobody gives a f... about immersion besides few no lifers on forums

[rda]

how the f.... runing in straight line and just kiting mobs behind you untill you loose agro by the time you hit point B makes it "immersive" - nobody will give a single f... about world all people will do will be cursing at blizz for making their life artificially harder just so they can justify puting so much $ into grpahic enviroment that 99 % of players dont care in the endgame. just wait and see how hge failure suramar will end up and how blizzard will just give up and add gear quests in there too because nobody gives a f... about immersion besides few no lifers on forums

From what it looks now (=unless they make big changes), leveling to 110 will be over in about 60% of the time it took in WoD, world quests will be over in a few weeks, heroics same, Suramar same. All that playing casually, ie, two hours per evening. After that your reasons to go out in the world will be to grind some artifact power (not important, you will have initial ranks very quick and ranks after that are an exponential grind, which you don't force, you don't grind them specifically), and hope for a legendary (if the drop chance is the same as world epics, good luck). Plus pet battles and archaeology, obviously, but that's already things that people postpone for rainy days.

Sum total, in terms of world content Legion is WoD with the apexis grind being replaced with the artifact and legendary grinds. I don't know, maybe someone likes killing 1000 mobs hoping for a drop more than killing 1000 mobs getting some currency from each, I don't see much of a difference.

[SirCowdog]

Well, there are flight paths. lol


No flying makes you more immersed with players, instead of mounting up and taking off to point B.

Just need 7.0 to come already

Flight paths are just unnecessarily long loading screens. They actually prevent you from interacting with the world at all, unlike a flying mount which allows you to stop and do something if you want to. Honestly, in that way it even breaks immersion more than a flying mount could.

The only thing flight paths do is waste your time unnecessarily. They should be replaced with instant-travel like other games use.

[Saiona]

From what it looks now (=unless they make big changes), leveling to 110 will be over in about 60% of the time it took in WoD, world quests will be over in a few weeks, heroics same, Suramar same. All that playing casually, ie, two hours per evening. After that your reasons to go out in the world will be to grind some artifact power (not important, you will have initial ranks very quick and ranks after that are an exponential grind, which you don't force, you don't grind them specifically), and hope for a legendary (if the drop chance is the same as world epics, good luck). Plus pet battles and archaeology, obviously, but that's already things that people postpone for rainy days.

Sum total, in terms of world content Legion is WoD with the apexis grind being replaced with the artifact and legendary grinds. I don't know, maybe someone likes killing 1000 mobs hoping for a drop more than killing 1000 mobs getting some currency from each, I don't see much of a difference.

Comparing the grinding of apexis crystals to LEGENDARY game changing items and artifacts ( probably the biggest damage boosting piece of gear you will have). I played WoD at launch and I don't remember ever feeling compelled to farm apexis. Nobody farmed apexis for the awful gear. The only thing I saved apexis for was the mount.

[Alfakennyone]

90% travel is with flight paths, yes. Without flight paths, it'd have been worse.

Enjoy being immersed.

Ok thanks.

how the f.... runing in straight line and just kiting mobs behind you untill you loose agro by the time you hit point B makes it "immersive" - nobody will give a single f... about world all people will do will be cursing at blizz for making their life artificially harder just so they can justify puting so much $ into grpahic enviroment that 99 % of players dont care in the endgame. just wait and see how hge failure suramar will end up and how blizzard will just give up and add gear quests in there too because nobody gives a f... about immersion besides few no lifers on forums

Damn, son. Settle down.

[SirCowdog]

...but since they're making it obtained by achievement you're not gonna buy it...

I think you've missed the points that have been getting made in this thread. This isn't about wanting to avoid unlocking flight via an achievement or epic quest or some other form of effort. In fact, most pro-flight people are in favor of that style of unlock instead of a simple gold sink at level cap. The epic quest line hinted at by Blizzard back during the WoD Beta was something a LOT of people looked forward to.

No, the real issue here is Blizzard being ambiguous about when flight will be available. When will it be available? 7.1? 7.2? Later? It's a blatantly obvious carrot to get people to sink time into the game, chasing down achievements without actually knowing when or how it will finally be complete and available. This is far too similar to what they did with WoD.

What's stopping them from playing the "Changing conditions in development" card and reversing their statement that flight will be in Legion? Nothing. Their word that it will be in the game is meaningless in light of how much they flip-flopped and avoided straight answers during WoD.

This is 100% about Blizzard's complete and total lack of credibility when it comes to flying in Legion. It has nothing to do with players being unwilling to work to unlock it.

[rda]

Comparing the grinding of apexis crystals to LEGENDARY game changing items and artifacts ( probably the biggest damage boosting piece of gear you will have). I played WoD at launch and I don't remember ever feeling compelled to farm apexis. Nobody farmed apexis for the awful gear. The only thing I saved apexis for was the mount.

Empowering the artifact is very gradual, it's very similar to the apexis grind, except you *have* to grind the artifact, that's forced on you, because there aren't any alternative ways to get a weapon.

Farming a legendary is different, sure, instead of getting some currency from mobs, you are killing them hoping for a drop. Which you might never get in the entire expansion. If that appeals to you, great, go ahead and grind it. It doesn't appeal to me. In the entire time of playing WoW I can count the number of times I got a world epic on one hand (and I only need two fingers).

[Alfakennyone]

I think you've missed the points that have been getting made in this thread. This isn't about wanting to avoid unlocking flight via an achievement or epic quest or some other form of effort. In fact, most pro-flight people are in favor of that style of unlock instead of a simple gold sink at level cap. The epic quest line hinted at by Blizzard back during the WoD Beta was something a LOT of people looked forward to.

No, the real issue here is Blizzard being ambiguous about when flight will be available. When will it be available? 7.1? 7.2? Later? It's a blatantly obvious carrot to get people to sink time into the game, chasing down achievements without actually knowing when or how it will finally be complete and available. This is far too similar to what they did with WoD.

What's stopping them from playing the "Changing conditions in development" card and reversing their statement that flight will be in Legion? Nothing. Their word that it will be in the game is meaningless in light of how much they flip-flopped and avoided straight answers during WoD.

This is 100% about Blizzard's complete and total lack of credibility when it comes to flying in Legion. It has nothing to do with players being unwilling to work to unlock it.

Yea, we all know they're putting us into the world walking first before we run.

I get it, people wanna do what they want and they're mad Blizz won't allow flight right away. I still think it will be a fun game, but that's just me.

[Idoru]

I get it, people wanna do what they want and they're mad Blizz won't allow flight right away.

Funny how even when it's spelled out for you it still goes way over your head.

[Connll]

Empowering the artifact is very gradual, it's very similar to the apexis grind, except you *have* to grind the artifact, that's forced on you, because there aren't any alternative ways to get a weapon.

Wait. I don´t have access to the alpha, so I must ask: HOW gradual is the grind for Artifact Power? I had assumed you would max it out by the time the next content patch arrives (7.1? 7.2?), and then they would Add more to the Artifact Talent tree.

[Maneo]

I liked it when we had to explore everything in Draenor personally. Made the content look bigger. But definitely, flying should be added 7.1.

Honestly I see the merit of delaying flight for a short amount of time, but any longer than the first content patch adds nothing to the game but tedium and annoyance.

[QUOTE=rda;40202217]

However, right now these world quests are a big pain because they are 50% flight paths, 40% running and only 10% doing the quest. No jokes. This will get old very fast.

Yah Preach from Preach gaming said pretty much the same thing he was wanting flight the second day of doing world quests. Spending 10 minutes to get to a objective that takes you less then 2 is bad game design.

I doubt those who advocate not flying realize how long they will actually spend on travel in Legion. After they exhaust one-time quest content, it will be nearly all travel while sitting in a queue to somewhere.

Most of the anti flight people seem to be the capital city campers, the majority of their content is instanced beyond leveling so they won't care.

Blizzard is probably hoping that we'll give up eventually. Hoping that people will accept that they'll spend over 50% of their play time traveling, and they can go back to making facades instead of 3D continents.

That is what it has been about all along. Can anyone honestly say that not having flight made WoD a better game? Once you ask the question who does removing flight benefit .. it becomes clear it wasn't the player.

Blizzard said WoD was a experiment and that was true. What they didn't say was that it was a experiment to see if the sub loss would exceed the savings gained from being able to develop all future content w/out flight. Until post 6.2 it obviously was.

Here is the problem though Legion was well under development w/the belief that "no flight" was a success. So it would be safe to assume it was made that way. So flight is having to retro actively be put back in.. so they can still meet the release schedule.

They have told you about the problems flying causes so make your point and move on.

and everyone has been refuted, but you know this.

Well, there are flight paths. lol


No flying makes you more immersed with players, instead of mounting up and taking off to point B.

Just need 7.0 to come already

Watch Preachs recent video about the open world quests. Flight paths only get you half the way there, you have to ground pound the rest.

10 minutes of travel to a objective that takes you 2 minutes. Does that sound like fun to you?

Really I just popped in to see if there was any new info. I guess there is going to be a Q and A on the 10th someone really needs to pin Watcher down and find out if flight is going to be enabled at the beginning or end of the expac.

[Mafic]

Watch Preachs recent video about the open world quests. Flight paths only get you half the way there, you have to ground pound the rest.

10 minutes of travel to a objective that takes you 2 minutes. Does that sound like fun to you?

Really I just popped in to see if there was any new info. I guess there is going to be a Q and A on the 10th someone really needs to pin Watcher down and find out if flight is going to be enabled at the beginning or end of the expac.

It is not just the issue of travel to do world quests. But world quests don't even offer proper rewards for spending time traveling around doing world quests.

World quests = Apexis Quests 2.0 with a paint job

Preach has covered what the world quests will be rewarding in Legion. Heelsvsbabyface covered months ago why the Apexis quest system failed in WoD. Blizzard's failure to understand to make a ground and pound game play work it requires meaningful quests, and quests that are rewarding for time invested.

What will happen in Legion is what we have known since WotLK and that is everyone will be in DaLA(G)ran once more waiting for queues to pop.