[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[TirielWoW]

Wild speculation here:

In the books we know that Manderly is a Stark loyalist, and asks Davos to retrieve Rickon from Skavos. Manderly has been casted for the show.
- In the trailer we can see a feast in the Frey common room, with Lannisters. That might be the feast where Manderly serves Frey his own sons to eat (he killed them and put them in a pie).
- The Umbers are also Stark loyalists, but Greatjon being held by the Frey's forces their hand in helping the Bolton's.

Now in the show Smalljon refuses to bend the knee, refuses to make an oath. Yet still brings Rickon and Osha to Ramsay.
- The direwolf head seems way too small to be Shaggydog. Remember how huge Grey Wind's head was on Robb's body.
- Osha tries to kill Ramsay the second she gets free time with him. Now this is not Winterfell held by Theon (20men), the place is swarming with Bolton's, once Ramsay killed she would have not been able to do much, even less free Rickon from the dungeon.
- It may have been the Umber's plan, an inside job. Get Osha to kill Ramsay, help them out once the deed is done. Like attacking Winterfell when their leader is dead, and the house is falling because there isn't any heirs left.
- That plan having failed they turn to option B.
- In the trailer we can see a wildling/Bolton battle. Not hard to guess that it will be the BastardBowl. So in some pics you can see the Umber flag floating behind the Bolton flag. Suggesting they are fighting together.
But it might be part of the Umber plan, and backstab the Bolton army mid battle. Assuring their defeat, stuck between the Wildlings/Eyrie and the Umbers.
- On his side Manderly might work his way into freeing Greatjon from the Freys. But Walder is a coward anyway so if Ramsay get's crushed I don't see him trying to fight his way through the Starks without any assurances (No Tywin, No Rosse).

I believe Greatjon died in the Red Wedding, or did I mistake that part?

[Wilian]

Yes, but that was kind of the point - they were not fit to rule the Dothraki. She had taken their measure and realized they were ultimately cowards.

By the power of the plot-device.

[TirielWoW]

By the power of the plot-device.

Okay.

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Random thought that occurred to me - since apparently we're not going to get the actual Dorne plot, with its intricacies and we're never going to see how badass Doran was, do you think it's possible that they've rolled that plot into, say, Varys's plotline? Or another character's plotline?

[Frontenac]

My instincts are: Dorne as Al-Andalus/Castile, The Reach and Stormlands as France and portions of the HRE, The Riverlands as the Lowlands, The North as Scotland, The Vale as the Alps region, and the continent as a whole is effectively an allegory of England. The Free cities also seem to be Italy + Hanseatic League inspired. The Dothraki are and Summer Isles are evident.

The Westerlands could be Bohemia and the surrounding area of the Holy Roman Empire (like the Harz). A lot of gold was mined there.

[Sindile]

There was a leak a while back on reddit that "leaked" the rest of the season and got this episode spot on correct. These are copied from Free Folk sub...basic overview of the spoilers given


North of the wall: - Bran has a vision in which he finds out the Children of the Forest are the ones who created the white walkers to guard something, but it went wrong. He has another vision about Tower of Joy, we see a baby, Lyanna whispers something to Ned, and we cut to Jon. Bran sees the whitewalkers in his vision (episode 5 possibly?) and the Night King senses him, and they find them. Night King kills 3 eyed raven, the others escape.
Castle Black/North: -Jon and Sansa go to bear island and the mormont girl backs Jon as the King of the North, so does Sansa apparently. They get support of several Northern houses, but apparently the Mormonts only have a hundred men left to pledge. Overall seems a bit funny. Davos is there and has a sick speech. Other houses pledge to Jon as King of the North. -Sansa meets up with Littlefinger in episode 5 in Moat Cailin(?) and says she doesn't believe he didnt know about Ramsay. She doesn't want anything to do with him. -Bastardbowl happens, at the start Rickon is running towards Jon who rides to him, but just when he arrives Ramsay aims for him to die and he dies in Jons arms. Team Jon wins in the end (unknown if its because Littlefinger or not) and he imprisons Ramsay, he does not kill him. Wun Wun survives, no other Stark dies.
Kings Landing: - Tommen jumps out of the window and kills himself. - Tyrells/Other big Kings Landing actors get slaughtered in the end, red wedding style. - Cersei's trial by combat gets denied, Mountain kills the Septa Unella.

[Frontenac]

Okay.

-------------------------

Random thought that occurred to me - since apparently we're not going to get the actual Dorne plot, with its intricacies and we're never going to see how badass Doran was, do you think it's possible that they've rolled that plot into, say, Varys's plotline? Or another character's plotline?

I would not be surprised if Arianne ends up being show Ellaria...

[Khadgar]

I don't think that works that way. The North is by far the widest kingdom of Westeros. By that logic, it should be the most populous. I doubt it very much. The North's density should be the smallest in all Westeros, since it is situated, well, in the north. It's the first to know winter and the last to know spring. So that means less crops and far more deaths during winter. Each kingdom/area has it's own characteristics, so you can't extrapolate Westeros population from one RL country. It would be better if you compared the Reach with France, the North with Scotland or Scandinavia and the Vale with Switzerland or Austria (or whatever these countries were in the Middle Ages). But even then, it would be rather pointless...

I agree, but if you were to assume the 1% population/army report is an accurate report (which it may not be, but just to form an idea). You'd come up with a similar estimate.

"We know that at the start of the war, the forces were these:

North: 18000 men

Frey: 3000 men

Lannister: 30000 men (10000 under Jaime and 20000 under Tywin)

51000 men until now

The dates we have about Riverrun are very curious. We know that, besides The Reach, it is the most inhabited region of Westeros. Yet in the book I counted only 15000 men in Tully’s army. It may be that the war caught Riverrun by surprise and could not mobilize its forces, or it may be a grave demo graphical error by George Martin. From my estimation, Riverrun should be able to field an army of around 45000-50000 men.

65-95000 soldiers until now

Renly manages to field 100000 men, the biggest army in Westeros. He has the support of The Reach and Storm’s End. Observing the territory's, and the dates we have, I would say the rapport would be 70/30 in favor of The Reach

165-195000 so far

We know that the Dornish Prince is a very valued allied by all sides, and he can field 50000 men.

215-245000 until now

We do not know the size of Eyrie’s army. It supposed to be an important army, but given the fact that more then half of Eyrie is rocky, uninhabited land, and the most density is in a narrow valley, I estimate its army to 10-20000 men.

That is 225-265000 so far

By these estimations, Westeros’ population number around 22,5-26,5 million people.

To this we add 500000 of the King’s Landing and probably around the same number from the Crown’s Lands, 40000 savages north of the wall, around 10000 freemen in the mountains of Eyrie (3000 of which are fighters) and probably 300000 men in the Iron Islands ( considering their territory's, number of their fleet and army). 2 more millions at the most.

So my final estimation would be around 25-30 million."

[Gaman]

I believe Greatjon died in the Red Wedding, or did I mistake that part?

Well, we havent seen him on-screen since season one. But he was "present" in the show still, doing offscreen stuff in season two, when Rob split his army in two, the 2nd host was led by the Greatjon.

Im not going to talk for anyone else, but I belived he might have been "present" during the red wedding aswell, and either died or captured. Purely because that is what happends in the books. Cogman(writer) later tweeted something like: Greatjon not at red wedding, he is alive and free. So show-wise, Greatjon did not die at the red wedding.

As of season 6, Smalljon said he died from natural causes in the last episode (503). Was he lying or telling the truth? We just have to take Smalljon's word for it atm.
I think Smalljon was telling the truth, simply because its an easy way to kill him off, not needing to get him back, or recast a character we saw in like 3 episodes 5 years ago...

[dwightyo39]

There was a leak a while back on reddit that "leaked" the rest of the season and got this episode spot on correct. These are copied from Free Folk sub...basic overview of the spoilers given


North of the wall: - Bran has a vision in which he finds out the Children of the Forest are the ones who created the white walkers to guard something, but it went wrong. He has another vision about Tower of Joy, we see a baby, Lyanna whispers something to Ned, and we cut to Jon. Bran sees the whitewalkers in his vision (episode 5 possibly?) and the Night King senses him, and they find them. Night King kills 3 eyed raven, the others escape.
Castle Black/North: -Jon and Sansa go to bear island and the mormont girl backs Jon as the King of the North, so does Sansa apparently. They get support of several Northern houses, but apparently the Mormonts only have a hundred men left to pledge. Overall seems a bit funny. Davos is there and has a sick speech. Other houses pledge to Jon as King of the North. -Sansa meets up with Littlefinger in episode 5 in Moat Cailin(?) and says she doesn't believe he didnt know about Ramsay. She doesn't want anything to do with him. -Bastardbowl happens, at the start Rickon is running towards Jon who rides to him, but just when he arrives Ramsay aims for him to die and he dies in Jons arms. Team Jon wins in the end (unknown if its because Littlefinger or not) and he imprisons Ramsay, he does not kill him. Wun Wun survives, no other Stark dies.
Kings Landing: - Tommen jumps out of the window and kills himself. - Tyrells/Other big Kings Landing actors get slaughtered in the end, red wedding style. - Cersei's trial by combat gets denied, Mountain kills the Septa Unella.

Hmm. Similar but different than the complete season 6 spoilers leaked a few weeks back in this thread.

[Ethenil]

snip
Kings Landing: - Tommen jumps out of the window and kills himself.

snip

Ehm

Wut?

[ringpriest]

Kings Landing: - Tommen jumps out of the window and kills himself.

No, no, no - Tommen has to stay around, so that the poor dragons have a kinglet to eat when Danerys & Co arrive (Tyrion's horror at watching one of "his side's" dragons eat his nephew should be some good GRRM character-pain.)

[Azrile]

Let's see how Petyr spins that one.

It doesn´t matter. Unless Sansa has direct contact with Robin, she needs Petyr for his army. I think that is what the writers are going to get at, once again hinting that she is playing the game again because she ignores the personal stuff in order to have the bigger army.

[Deleted]

I just find it hilarious that most people saw that scene as a scene of her being a badass. When I saw that scene, I was like, "Yep, this is where she starts to go mad." Her whole speech inside the Temple could have easily been out of the mouth of Aerys the Mad King.

It's interesting how some people feel a connection with Viserys and see Dany as the one becoming mad. It's pretty obvious she became more calculating and less impulsive as she got older, unlike Viserys, who started to behave more like a mad man (in kin with his heritage) as time passed.

There was nothing impulsive, fickle or entitled about the last scene. She knew what she was doing and why she was doing it. Don't get me wrong though, the scene was written poorly and more akin with something that would happen in a crappy show like Xena Warrior whatever.

I get that some are anti-Daenerys, that's what happens in a good story, people pick sides. Often, because characters bring up specific feelings. But if I'd have to compare Daenerys to let's say Cercei, it's pretty clear who the real entitled one is. Born into power, born into wealth, never had a struggle, never really suffered before the death of her children, stomps her feet whenever she doesn't get her way, relies heavily on brother and father, constantly miscalculates situations, thinks she's cunning, while in fact she's stupid (as her father often points out), etc. etc.

Daenerys, a mere child, rose from the ashes, both literally and figuratively.

I wonder if we'll see more of Euron, Victarion and maybe even the 'Dragonbinder' this season.

That would be way too cliched and would pretty much make the last 2 seasons a series of -- "I told you so" s

Martin did say fans already predicted the story's ending, so it might just be that.

[Graeham]

Cersei has gone through quite a lot, actually. She's bitter, cynical and reckless because of everything that she's endured over the years.

[Deleted]

Cersei has gone through quite a lot, actually. She's bitter, cynical and reckless because of everything that she's endured over the years.

Oh really? What has she endured [before the death of her children], exactly? Besides not being loved by her husband.

She endured her brother's penis, that's what she endured.

Cersei is awesome. Dunno why shes so hated. The heart wants what the heart wants, or your bros penis.

Because unlike Jaime, there isn't any good in her. She's a grown woman, behaving like a spoilt brat, stomping her feet at every turn, unable to do barely anything without daddy or brother.

[RobertoCarlos]

Cersei is awesome. Dunno why shes so hated. The heart wants what the heart wants, or your bros penis.

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Because unlike Jaime, there isn't any good in her.

She a semi decent mum considering the times and she does care. Shes just a little fucked up and think shes smarter than she is and makes bad decisions. Which we are all guilty of.

[Deleted]

Cersei is awesome. Dunno why shes so hated. The heart wants what the heart wants, or your bros penis.

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She a semi decent mum considering the times and she does care. Shes just a little fucked up and think shes smarter than she is and makes bad decisions. Which we are all guilty of.

Considering her repertoire, she's guilty about more than making bad decisions based on ignorance.

[Mavick]

Wealth doesn't always buy you a better army. If you don't have the men, you don't have the men. They aren't that many men to be bought in Westeros, it isn't Essos.
Also if your land is small where are you going to keep your men? The reach is far bigger than the Westerlands.
The Tyrells are the living proof of that, they have less money than the Lannisters but a greater army. They don't have good leaders tho (Lannister got Tywin)

I am right now cheking forums and all that to get an idea of the army sizes.
I wil edit if I find more.

So after reading the Asoiaf forum the trend seems to be this one. They base the facts on the books and annexe stuff like RPG. Counting also fertility of lands, possibilite of having a large garrison etc. Yes they put a lot of effort into it.

At maximum force (if all houses flag under their Lord) in the books the forces at the begining of the story would be:

The Reach: 80-100K
The West: 40-60K
Riverland - Vale - North: 40-50K each
Stormlands: 30-35K
Iron Islands - 20K
Dorne - 20K


-They seem to all agree on the ranking, the numbers fluctuate a bit.
-Stannis already had the numbers to take Kings Landing, taking the other Baratheon bannermen that flocked to Renly was a bonus.
But Renly's forces number to 100k and people seem to agree that the Tyrell made up to 70K of those forces. Which would fit their speculations.

You should know better by now than to rely on wiki's for the books regarding the show. There's one thing I'm positive of: the TWO largest armies are the Tyrell's and Lannisters. Who's number 1 and number 2, I'm really not sure and honestly don't give a fuck. The storyline seems to be trending towards the Lannister's manipulating the Tyrell's to their bidding, so for all intents and purposes they're the same army anyway.

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The Wildlings live beyond the Wall with the remaining Giants and Mammoths and the White Walkers. They believe in magic, including a horn which can bring down the Wall. Them seeing Jon resurrected, while potentially scary, isn't potentially horrifying to them if he's on their side.

The Dothraki have always been suspicious of magic, and, in this case, are so "primitive" as to think salt water is "poison water." They won't cross the sea because any water which a horse can't drink must be bad. The first time Dany walks out of a fire, the only people to witness it are old men and women who didn't leave (because they had nowhere to go) after Drogo died, and Drogo's three bloodriders who were sworn to take her to Vaes Dothrak. If all the bloodriders of all the khals saw their khals burned to a crisp, and a woman walk out unscathed, they'd view her like the witch Dany burns in her first fire - a sorceress, who should be killed.

That's one hell of a stretch imo. You're forgetting her original Dothraki followed her on a boat (which they quite obviously did not enjoy) to Asatpor when they could have just chilled out in Quarth. They obviously held devotion to her. People really need to stop trying to interpret Dothraki in ways they're clearly not represented in the show. As well as saying what happened to Dany was "magic". The show has gone to much more length to demonstrate her persistent immunity to fire, regardless of what Martin intended in the books. You don't like it, fine, but stop trying to argue for something that doesn't exist in the show.

[RobertoCarlos]

Considering her repertoire, she's guilty about more than making bad decisions based on ignorance.

Its defiantly fair to say that shes done a lot of bad shit. But shes also paranoid from being told a horrible prophecy as a child and its not like the Lannisters have ever been happy and she lost her mum young and her dad is a power hungry psycho. Cant find any empathy for her?

[Deleted]

Its defiantly fair to say that shes done a lot of bad shit. But shes also paranoid from being told a horrible prophecy as a child and its not like the Lannisters have ever been happy and she lost her mum young and her dad is a power hungry psycho. Cant find any empathy for her?

Empathy? For someone that's had a life of smooth-sailing, yet consciously tortures everyone else around her, even family? No fucking way. Cercei, is a weak insecure woman, that blames every little misfortune (you can't really speak of adversity) on the lack of a penis. She was a horrible wife and an even worse mother. She's the reason everything's gone to shit in the first place.

Heh, empathy... Her walk of shame was almost as sweet as Joffrey's death. I read every tidbit with a Bast*-like grin (*King Killer Chronicles).