20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Deleted]

It's not that I dislike 20 man, I just rather had it as 10 man.

This right here! The kind of raid/TeamSpeak environment you have with 10man is just impossible to have with 20. I miss that :'(

[Bellabel]

I mistakenly returned to wod recently and got feed gear and was fortunate enough to get carried through HFCM. I can tell you (from 9 years of hardcore progression) 20 mans are meh. The raids themselves are a good and challaging. Yet they don't have the same level of epicness. Good raids yes, but not on the same level of a 25 man hardmoe LK, Lei Shen, Neferian (cata), Cata Rag, Yogg, Algalon, Mimiron and I can go on. To put it short I'd say a 20 man mythic raid will find it very hard to be above an 7 in total greatest per fight due to the condensed raid. All the fights I mentioned before were at least 8.

Interestingly enough I found something that also took away from 20 mans being epic, something that blizzard was against in the ICC days. You know the ground painting addons. When I got to Archi I was laughing at seeing DBM painting the ground where a mechanic occured and I was suprised to see similiar aids in fights before it. Heck I was shocked to see people with debuffs had a radius painted around them.

Besides that, like others have mentioned, the smaller sizes resulted in a smaller game area since you need 4 healers and just 2 tanks you really can't spread the field out as well. Additionally it closes the door on the ever expanding class stucture Blizzard has introduced. I've also seen this setup removed the more niche specs from being better represented.

I say it was a failure and to those that say "It was for tuning and making the game better" I call BS. Blizzard did a wonderful job making 25 man HM's and this type of scaling was used more for a development crutch. After 3 weeks back from years off I couldn't deal with the sad state of raiding, that epicness is gone and simply doing good raids isnt enough. I need that epic boss, bosses that kept me going through the Cata and MOP dark ages. Bosses such as Ragnaros, Nef, Cho'gall, and Lei shen. They all gave me something to aspire to complete and participate in their epicness.

[stomination]

This right here! The kind of raid/TeamSpeak environment you have with 10man is just impossible to have with 20. I miss that :'(

Its not impossible.

[Lilija]

Yeah, it is almost like being able to drop your 15 weakest players means raiding is easier as you're no longer being handicapped.

Do you even understand how top end raiding works? It's not really about weaker/better players at some point. Raiding is on the hardests difficulty has always been about "meta" and various size simply create too much space for abuses.

[Bellabel]

Ten mans were a joke and blizzard even admitted it when they said they never scaled the content right. Punishing 25 mans to make 20 mans to properly scale the easy modes known as 10 mans.

[Lilija]

This right here! The kind of raid/TeamSpeak environment you have with 10man is just impossible to have with 20. I miss that :'(

Done both - don't see a difference.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Do you even understand how top end raiding works? It's not really about weaker/better players at some point. Raiding is on the hardests difficulty has always been about "meta" and various size simply create too much space for abuses.

Maybe you should factor in this concept known as "fun".

[Lilija]

Maybe you should factor in this concept known as "fun".

"Fun" is subjective therefor can't be measured therefor isn't really a part of the dicussion that is ment to determine if something was a failure or not.

In other words, what you find fun isn't fun for me and the other way around.

[klogaroth]

"Fun" is subjective therefor can't be measured

Course you can. It's measured in clown feet. And there are 5280 clown feet in a smile.

[Sanct]

Course you can. It's measured in clown feet. And there are 5280 clown feet in a smile.

Those are either tiny clowns, or a huge mouth.

[klogaroth]

Those are either tiny clowns, or a huge mouth.

They're regular sized clowns, but they can still all fit. It's the same thing they do when travelling by car.

[Sanct]

They're regular sized clowns, but they can still all fit. It's the same thing they do when travelling by car.

German engineering is a marvelous thing.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Those are either tiny clowns, or a huge mouth.

They're regular sized clowns, but they can still all fit. It's the same thing they do when travelling by car.

German engineering is a marvelous thing.

I see this thread has gotten stupid.

It has also become a case of 2 or 3 people simply machine gun posting the same 2 or 3 points over and over even though they have been stomped into the ground and laughed at a 100 times. Pretty much all I can conclude is this. Mythic raiding was amazing for a balance and tightly tuned encounters angle. Those that were able to maintain the roster by either being successful, being on a high pop realm, and had people willing to put in 10 to 20 hours a week recruiting loved it. For anyone else that made the choice of not putting in a part time job just to hang onto a roster it kind of sucked. Or if they were on a realm that was alright pop wise then flopped during the sub extinction phase of WoD. Which on the US was about 30 realms that went from the higher end of medium pop to "is anyone even online on this whole realm???" levels of pop in about 3 to 6 months. Then of course yeah, if you were like top 100 or so of your region people came to you no matter what. What a surprise there.

[Magnosh]

I see this thread has gotten stupid.

It has also become a case of 2 or 3 people simply machine gun posting the same 2 or 3 points over and over even though they have been stomped into the ground and laughed at a 100 times. Pretty much all I can conclude is this. Mythic raiding was amazing for a balance and tightly tuned encounters angle. Those that were able to maintain the roster by either being successful, being on a high pop realm, and had people willing to put in 10 to 20 hours a week recruiting loved it. For anyone else that made the choice of not putting in a part time job just to hang onto a roster it kind of sucked. Or if they were on a realm that was alright pop wise then flopped during the sub extinction phase of WoD. Which on the US was about 30 realms that went from the higher end of medium pop to "is anyone even online on this whole realm???" levels of pop in about 3 to 6 months. Then of course yeah, if you were like top 100 or so of your region people came to you no matter what. What a surprise there.

Sounds exactly like how it was.

[Lilija]

I see this thread has gotten stupid.

It has also become a case of 2 or 3 people simply machine gun posting the same 2 or 3 points over and over even though they have been stomped into the ground and laughed at a 100 times. Pretty much all I can conclude is this. Mythic raiding was amazing for a balance and tightly tuned encounters angle. Those that were able to maintain the roster by either being successful, being on a high pop realm, and had people willing to put in 10 to 20 hours a week recruiting loved it. For anyone else that made the choice of not putting in a part time job just to hang onto a roster it kind of sucked. Or if they were on a realm that was alright pop wise then flopped during the sub extinction phase of WoD. Which on the US was about 30 realms that went from the higher end of medium pop to "is anyone even online on this whole realm???" levels of pop in about 3 to 6 months. Then of course yeah, if you were like top 100 or so of your region people came to you no matter what. What a surprise there.

Except the issues you mention weren't created by Mythic but by Cataclysm. Somehow, before Cata recruitment wasn't really that hard for a 25man raiding and there were definitly less dead realms.

[hulkgor]

Success. Without a doubt.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Except the issues you mention weren't created by Mythic but by Cataclysm. Somehow, before Cata recruitment wasn't really that hard for a 25man raiding and there were definitly less dead realms.

Right because smaller group content, people want to do, became available in the form of 10 man. Because no one wants to spend a metric fuck ton of time balancing out rosters. Kinda like it said in the post you quoted. Before that you had no option. It was do you want to raid in not kiddie mode 10 man like it was in Wrath? You were forced to raid 25. Not to mention before Cata the game had an ever growing population. Since Cata it has been a pretty much diminishing one minus a few spikes at the start or end of expansions usually tied to releases. It makes zero sense in a game with a population sinking downward to make and force people to be in larger groups when smaller groups were already a part of the game. Only an idiot would make such a conclusion. I might be starting to make that conclusion with you as well..

It should be said my guild really hasnt had a huge problem keeping its mythic roster. We are on a high pop realm, midly good at the game, and in fact have people that love to sit around and bullshit people into server transfers combined with a decently dedicated core. I also loved mythic raiding. It kept me very entertained. But I am not blinded by my own bullshit to see the truth here.

[Lilija]

Right because smaller group content, people want to do, became available in the form of 10 man.

And this is where I have to stop you. You don't know and have no way of knowing how many people did 10mans because they wanted and how many because they didn't have a choise (because they had other priority and 25man guilds started disappearing so fast). All we have is anegdotal evidence. There were people who quit the game because they didn't want to switch to 10man and their 25man guild wasn't able to raid anymore. There were people who kept raiding in 10man guilds but missed the times when they were in their non existant 25man guilds. There were people who prefered 10mans over 25mans. There were people who didn't care what format they raid as long as they get loot and achievements (and I am inclined to believe that lat group potentially was the biggest).

Anyway, once again, the issues with recruitment were created in Cataclysm. I don't think it's possible to get back to how well it was in Wrath in terms of recruitment for high end raiding. And even if it is, it will take years to rebuild raiding scene. Also, it might require some bold moves to bring potential raiders together (realm/faction transfers are the biggest issue right now)

[Bookofblade]

And this is where I have to stop you. You don't know and have no way of knowing how many people did 10mans because they wanted and how many because they didn't have a choise (because they had other priority and 25man guilds started disappearing so fast). All we have is anegdotal evidence. There were people who quit the game because they didn't want to switch to 10man and their 25man guild wasn't able to raid anymore. There were people who kept raiding in 10man guilds but missed the times when they were in their non existant 25man guilds. There were people who prefered 10mans over 25mans. There were people who didn't care what format they raid as long as they get loot and achievements (and I am inclined to believe that lat group potentially was the biggest).

I can use your groups argument against you here tho, if people preferred 25 man there were not forced to do 10 they could of recruited like minded people and merged 25 man groups together that were losing members in order to field a 25 man raid.

or is that only applicable for 10 man groups wanting to keep pushing hard content?

[Magnosh]

Except the issues you mention weren't created by Mythic but by Cataclysm. Somehow, before Cata recruitment wasn't really that hard for a 25man raiding and there were definitly less dead realms.

Had 0 issues on guilds from Cataclysm to the end of MoP to recruit. One was most of the time a 25 man guild during Dragon Soul while the other a 10 man on MoP. Server was a great place to play, so on my own perspective it was after Mythic came in that most of this atmosphere was destroyed and that recruiting became harder.