[huge spoiler] legion issue

[procne]

Again, Illidan is making an army. The Fel Orcs were a part of that army. The Alliance and Horde took out the source of that armys power. TBC doesnt give a whole lot of reasoning behind what illidan was doing. We know he was using outlands to build an army. But Azeroth took him and his armies out b4 those armies could be used for good or for evil.

What is your point exactly? You keep repeating that Illidan was making an army, and nobody denies that. But what does it have to do with the original point that Horde and Alliance had reasons to attack him? Are you trying to say that both factions should sit idly and watch Illidan turn Maghar into fel orcs? You know, after years of fighting with fel orcs in first war, second war and in Ashenvale? Should Thrall just sit and watch his people being turned into mindless brutes to fuel Illidan's army and think "hmm let's see what he's going to use them for"? Should Alliance just let Illidan (who consumed demonic artifacts, almost turning into a demon, who teamed up with Naga, blood elves and caused huge earthquakes in Azeroth) keep making a demonic army and hope they will not try to burn Stormwind for the second time?

There is no retcon. Its called filling in the blanks.

Call it as you wish. The official version during TBC was that Illidan has gone mad and betrayed Akama, started training demon hunters, corrupted blood elves with felenergies and created demonic army.
Now Blizz came up with a redemption story about how Illidan wasn't crazy after all.
And now we have a bunch of people going with "oh, we attacked Illidan, we bastards, but he was good"

[Captnrex]

What is your point exactly? You keep repeating that Illidan was making an army, and nobody denies that. But what does it have to do with the original point that Horde and Alliance had reasons to attack him? Are you trying to say that both factions should sit idly and watch Illidan turn Maghar into fel orcs? You know, after years of fighting with fel orcs in first war, second war and in Ashenvale? Should Thrall just sit and watch his people being turned into mindless brutes to fuel Illidan's army and think "hmm let's see what he's going to use them for"? Should Alliance just let Illidan (who consumed demonic artifacts, almost turning into a demon, who teamed up with Naga, blood elves and caused huge earthquakes in Azeroth) keep making a demonic army and hope they will not try to burn Stormwind for the second time?


Call it as you wish. The official version during TBC was that Illidan has gone mad and betrayed Akama, started training demon hunters, corrupted blood elves with felenergies and created demonic army.
Now Blizz came up with a redemption story about how Illidan wasn't crazy after all.
And now we have a bunch of people going with "oh, we attacked Illidan, we bastards, but he was good"

He never did anything to us really, he didn't open the portal to our world, kazzak did, he didn't attack the draenai/exodar, kaelthas did. Everything he was doing in outlands was in preparation against the burning legions return, and honestly, thanks to us outlands is screwed whenever the legion returns to it cause we killed off all the main military forces he had out there (also he didn't start pumping out the fel orcs till he failed to kill arthas/lich king the final time). Basically, again, pretty much everything he has done would have been for the greater good of all, it might not of been the nicest way, but we wouldn't of had the lich king if he wasn't stopped, night elves wouldn't have had immortality, and high elves wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for his actions.

fyi, the first paragraph is moot if it wasn't for the legion opening the portal to outlands again to get us to attack him (hell even in BC it was obvious they were trying to goad us to fight him when kaelthas sent his forces against shat).

one more thing, he showed them a alternate power source, he didn't force the blood elves to do shit

[procne]

He never did anything to us really, he didn't open the portal to our world, kazzak did, he didn't attack the draenai/exodar, kaelthas did. Everything he was doing in outlands was in preparation against the burning legions return, and honestly, thanks to us outlands is screwed whenever the legion returns to it cause we killed off all the main military forces he had out there (also he didn't start pumping out the fel orcs till he failed to kill arthas/lich king the final time). Basically, again, pretty much everything he has done would have been for the greater good of all, it might not of been the nicest way, but we wouldn't of had the lich king if he wasn't stopped, night elves wouldn't have had immortality, and high elves wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for his actions.

fyi, the first paragraph is moot if it wasn't for the legion opening the portal to outlands again to get us to attack him (hell even in BC it was obvious they were trying to goad us to fight him when kaelthas sent his forces against shat).

one more thing, he showed them a alternate power source, he didn't force the blood elves to do shit

This is getting boring, both of you keep repeating how Illidan was good but keep ignoring the bad things he did. It's easy to say now "oh but he was doing it for greater good!" from the position of omniscient observer, like 10 years after it happened, while - back then - nothing of this "greater good" was known.

He was pumping fel orcs out of local orc population, turning them into mindless brutes filled with bloodlust. That's pretty much a genocide and / or slavery.
He was seen working for burning legion.
He employed demonic forces.
He caused damage to Azeroth.
He was stripping Outland of water causing local life to die.
He betrayed Amaka / broken.

This is the reality Alliance / Horde knew after they went through the portal. They had every reason to attack him, especially that he didn't bother talking with anyone (unless Blizzard retcons this too now). Whatever his goals were his methods were unacceptable for any faction.

[DemonHunter18]

I think the big question is "why did Bllizard do that to Illidan during TBC???"

it was a weak lore,really.

[procne]

I think the big question is "why did Bllizard do that to Illidan during TBC???"

it was a weak lore,really.

And it's even weaker now that they're trying to "fix" it.

Well, Blizzard needed villains, so they kept turning many heroes into those.
The worst stories in WoW are result of this. Especially this time travel, iron horde and *new* Guldan

[Zeek Daniels]

What is your point exactly? You keep repeating that Illidan was making an army, and nobody denies that. But what does it have to do with the original point that Horde and Alliance had reasons to attack him? Are you trying to say that both factions should sit idly and watch Illidan turn Maghar into fel orcs? You know, after years of fighting with fel orcs in first war, second war and in Ashenvale? Should Thrall just sit and watch his people being turned into mindless brutes to fuel Illidan's army and think "hmm let's see what he's going to use them for"? Should Alliance just let Illidan (who consumed demonic artifacts, almost turning into a demon, who teamed up with Naga, blood elves and caused huge earthquakes in Azeroth) keep making a demonic army and hope they will not try to burn Stormwind for the second time?


Call it as you wish. The official version during TBC was that Illidan has gone mad and betrayed Akama, started training demon hunters, corrupted blood elves with felenergies and created demonic army.
Now Blizz came up with a redemption story about how Illidan wasn't crazy after all.
And now we have a bunch of people going with "oh, we attacked Illidan, we bastards, but he was good"

I started playing WoW during BC. I didnt really know why we attacked illidan other than he was the expansion boss. It wasnt until i started reading the wiki during Wotlk and Cata that i learned more about what brought about the conflict. Illidan pissed off thrall by creating more fel orcs. So what. Did Thrall even get involved story wise in the expansion? Did anyone even try to approach illidan? Nah we just attacked him because he was at war with shattrah. A war that the lore even says isnt sure how it began. All we knew at the time was blood elf forces belonging to illidans army specifically kel thalas attacked shattrah. This lead to a pre mature battle illidan did not want.

Illidan isnt beyond sacrificing to gain power. You act like the orcs he turned fel didnt want it. They wanted power to and illidan gave them that power. They saw themselves as the True Horde. Again we went in and stopped that at the source.

This is not a redemption story. Illidan has been doing the same thing since the War of the Ancients. Gaining power for himself to fight the legion by any means necessary. And that now includes becoming champion of the light. Nothing has changed in his character that we know of so far yet you people call it redemption. Why cause its a "light" force? psh

[procne]

I started playing WoW during BC. I didnt really know why we attacked illidan other than he was the expansion boss. It wasnt until i started reading the wiki during Wotlk and Cata that i learned more about what brought about the conflict. Illidan pissed off thrall by creating more fel orcs. So what. Did Thrall even get involved story wise in the expansion?

Yes, there was a whole event on horde side where Thrall visited Maghar village and met young Garrosh. It started with a quest where the player is sent to get rid of fel orc assassin preparing an ambush on horde ambassador. Then the player finds said assassin already killed by Maghar orcs. Ok, now the Maghar are bad ones because they attacked Illidan's army who was preparing to fight burning legion and save everyone.

At this point I have a feeling that I'll get a huge "so what" in response to any crime committed by Illidan. Like, it doesn't matter at all what he does or did, he's fighting burning legion now, and whatever he did to strangthen himself is fine.

Did anyone even try to approach illidan?

Did he? Apart from sending assasins to kill horde ambassadors. Did he bother to talk with Naaru in Shattrath before the portal was opened? No, Blizzard wanted him to be the bad guy and they made him one. He WAS the bad guy in TBC.

Nah we just attacked him because he was at war with shattrah.

No? First we fought with Vashj and Kaelthas, his lieutenants, because of what they did in Zangarmarsh, Netherstorm and Exodar. Fel orcs were attacked because... (or did they attack first? I'm pretty sure that questing in hellfire peninsula started with destroying war machines aimed at horde and alliance camps) well, because they're fel orcs - demon blood infused, blinded by bloodlust, monsters. The same ones which burned Stormwind in the first war and then torn Azeroth and Lordaeron. And because they were already hostile to the draenei, human and orc survivors on Draenor. As the Draenor was explored more and more examples of Illidan's wrongdoings were discovered. With the way Blizzard has presented Illidan in TBC there was no other sensible solution but to get rid of him, for the safety of everyone. It literally was a madman building a demon army.

This lead to a pre mature battle illidan did not want.

And it says so where? In one of the new books which are ret conning TBC lore?

Illidan isnt beyond sacrificing to gain power. You act like the orcs he turned fel didnt want it.

Yes, I do. Maghar were pretty clear about that.

They wanted power to and illidan gave them that power. They saw themselves as the True Horde.

Sounds exactly like the fel horde in first war or the Iron horde under Guldan. Yes, why should we stop that? It's perfectly fine when a madman turns people into monsters bound to his will.

Again we went in and stopped that at the source.

And that was a good thing we did.

This is not a redemption story. Illidan has been doing the same thing since the War of the Ancients. Gaining power for himself to fight the legion by any means necessary. And that now includes becoming champion of the light. Nothing has changed in his character that we know of so far yet you people call it redemption. Why cause its a "light" force? psh

This is a redemption story so much it hurts. It practically screams "doh, we borked with Illidan in TBC, let's make up for it now!". And the first part of it is true - they borked it, they forcibly turned Illidan into a villain.

[Captnrex]

This is getting boring, both of you keep repeating how Illidan was good but keep ignoring the bad things he did. It's easy to say now "oh but he was doing it for greater good!" from the position of omniscient observer, like 10 years after it happened, while - back then - nothing of this "greater good" was known.

He was pumping fel orcs out of local orc population, turning them into mindless brutes filled with bloodlust. That's pretty much a genocide and / or slavery.
He was seen working for burning legion.
He employed demonic forces.
He caused damage to Azeroth.
He was stripping Outland of water causing local life to die.
He betrayed Amaka / broken.

This is the reality Alliance / Horde knew after they went through the portal. They had every reason to attack him, especially that he didn't bother talking with anyone (unless Blizzard retcons this too now). Whatever his goals were his methods were unacceptable for any faction.

yeah it is boring cause you don't get it (wow works both ways), I am not ignoring the "bad" things he did, no even in BC it was fucking obvious why he did most of the things did, to combat the legion from returning/attacking outlands again. It was OBVIOUS that Kaelthas wasn't working for him anymore.

He was pumping fel orcs out of local orc population, turning them into mindless brutes filled with bloodlust. That's pretty much a genocide and / or slavery.
Yeah, I know I already said he didn't start doing it till his final retreat to outlands in preperation
He was seen working for burning legion.
lol, you mean the times he betrays them later? When he would of ended the Lich King for us/ Would of been killed if he didn't tell Kil'jaden ok? Or do you mean way back when he helped the Night Elves during the war of the Ancients?
He employed demonic forces.
Hmm what limitless resources could he use against a limitless army (legion)........
He caused damage to Azeroth.
see him working for the legion part, he was almost done destroying the Lich King before the "Good Guys" stopped him
He was stripping Outland of water causing local life to die.
In order to control the people of Outland Illidan ordered Lady Vashj to control the water reserves of the shattered realm, which she was only controlling Zangermarsh where only some dreanai/broken lived so wasn't that big a deal.
He betrayed Amaka / broken.
how? just cause he didn't turn the temple over to akama? Cause he used it as his fortress and location of converting demons to his side (shown in the warlock color quest), again, in preperation. Akama is the one who betrayed him instead of seeing the bigger picture he just thought of "mai temple"

In the end they wanted a bad guy so they threw us at em

This is a redemption story so much it hurts. It practically screams "doh, we borked with Illidan in TBC, let's make up for it now!". And the first part of it is true - they borked it, they forcibly turned Illidan into a villain.

the story is we came and killed anything "bad" in outlands, we didn't bother seeing illidan any different cause of all the demons and what not he had, not to mention kaelthas tricked us (Kiljaden probably told him to) by have his forces attack shattrath cause us to attack illidan.

[procne]

no even in BC it was fucking obvious why he did most of the things did, to combat the legion from returning/attacking outlands again.

It was also pretty obvious that he was mad.

It was OBVIOUS that Kaelthas wasn't working for him anymore.

It was obvious only after we had been already fighting them.

Yeah, I know I already said he didn't start doing it till his final retreat to outlands in preperation

Does this somehow help him? Alliance and horde arrives, see fel orcs who attack them. Is it really so surprising both factions would decide to fight fel orcs, and then their master?

lol, you mean the times he betrays them later? When he would of ended the Lich King for us/ Would of been killed if he didn't tell Kil'jaden ok? Or do you mean way back when he helped the Night Elves during the war of the Ancients?

I mean frozen throne, and what happened after (witnessed by Maiev, Akama and virtually everyone we meet in Outland). Look, first you guys excuse genocide of orcs because Illidan was working against burning legion, and now you excuse him working for burning legion because his work was against Lich King. In any case, when horde and alliance arrives to Outland what they know about Illidan was that he was Kil'jaeden's lapdog

Hmm what limitless resources could he use against a limitless army (legion)........

Or, and that seems more plausible to me, horde and alliance would go "this madman, almost a demon himself, Kil'jaeden's servant, is building a demon army! He must be stopped!"

In order to control the people of Outland Illidan ordered Lady Vashj to control the water reserves of the shattered realm, which she was only controlling Zangermarsh where only some dreanai/broken lived so wasn't that big a deal.

We stopped her before she was finished. You guys so easily discard lives. Orcs turned into fel orcs. So what. Broken / sporregar killed in Zangarmarsh. So what. Whole Northrend destroyed. So what. I mean, what would he have to do to make "but he's working against burning legion!" not excuse him anymore in TBC? I don't mean to judge thic character based on everything we know now, but based on what alliance / horde knew during TBC.

how? just cause he didn't turn the temple over to akama? Cause he used it as his fortress and location of converting demons to his side (shown in the warlock color quest), again, in preperation. Akama is the one who betrayed him instead of seeing the bigger picture he just thought of "mai temple"

No - Akama pledged allegiance to Illidan to get rid of fel orcs and demons. And once Illidan gained power he did exactly that - spawn more fel orcs and demons. "Black temple traded one evil master for another" - Black Temple intro makes it pretty clear.

In the end they wanted a bad guy so they threw us at em

My point exactly. They had taken WC3 character and then forced him into a villain. Everything presented in TBC showed Illidan as a threat and based on that there was no possiblity of not attacking him. Blame Blizzard for doing that, but don't pretend that what we were presented in TBC in game didn't warrant the fight with Illidan.

the story is we came and killed anything "bad" in outlands, we didn't bother seeing illidan any different cause of all the demons and what not he had, not to mention kaelthas tricked us (Kiljaden probably told him to) by have his forces attack shattrath cause us to attack illidan.

This actually fits Illidan. He rushes headlong without bothering to talk or explain anything. He does bad stuff in secrecy, then gets caught and punished. He creates second well of eternity without consulting anyone? Bam, gets jailed. He consumes skull of Gul'dan and turns into half-demon? Bam, he gets banished. He teams up with naga and attempts to destroy whole continent without trying to explain anything to his brother (oh wait, he was working for Kil'jaeden - "my master's enemies will be undone, and I will claim my just reward")? Bam, he almost gets killed. He may mean well, but he keeps doing unacceptable stuff on his own, before consulting anyone. With a history like this it's no wonder people would first try to stop him and then ask questions - he had his hands slapped to many times. But no, it's alliance and horde getting blamed now for not going out of their way to talk with him, while his fel orcs are already attacking.

[Crayola Memes]

Look, Illidan is an antihero. which often do bad things for the greater good. I think we have to recognize that yes, he did commit these atrocious acts (like creating new fel orcs) but we also have to acknowledge that he did have good intentions and that his ultimate goal WAS to stop the burning legion... he isn't a good character nor is he a bad character. Again he is the "Child of light and shadow" in the words of Xe'ra.

[chrisisvacant]

Illidan being an anti-hero doesn't mean we need another messiah story. WoW has always felt the weakest when it has relied on a messiah for its story. This is, of course, part of why the dragons needed to be nerfed. They could simply walk in and destroy a storyline in minutes with their story-breaking powers. Illidan being a living martyr is not that compelling. Not nearly as compelling as it would be if he were forced to explain his motives and get on the "good" side himself - as opposed to a prophecy deeming it so.

I don't hate it, because Illidan is a neat character, but it's been a pretty long time we've had to get comfortable with a "bad" Illidan. Kind of strange to abruptly retcon all that.

My real problem with this twist is to know the titans are dead. The titans are dead? So Algalon's message would be sent to a vacuum? How depressing.

[Lupinemancer]

When you say "Huge Spoilers" I except, well, huge spoilers, not well-known facts.
Don't mislead people like that!

[Pippo89]

Nothing surprising after reading the book though.

[TyrannicalPuppy]

Pompous illogical crap.

Oh, you mean like Warcraft's story for the past 22 years?

Seriously, Warcraft has NEVER, NEVER had a deep, complex story. Stop acting like this is the end of the world. This is literally on par with all of the story up until now.

- - - Updated - - -

Or Starcraft 2.

Whatever, it's pretty cool. I just hope that this is Kil'Jaedens ploy to get Illidan.

It's not. Earlier on in the levelling experience, you come across Light's Heart, the core of Xe'ra that can only be opened by one of its kin. So, you take it to O'ros in Exodar, which ends up being folly as the Legion destroys O'ros. Left with nothing, you take Light's Heart to your Order Hall until Khadgar calls upon you, having discovered that Elune might be the creator of Xe'ra and readies the Tears of Elune for you. Lo and behold, touching Light's Heart and the Tears of Elune together send you into this vision.

[Saul Goodman]

I was expecting to find something like this behind that link:

Lmao Too funny

[Ersula]

Illidan presented this moral grey area. In the War of the Ancients he thought he could save everyone, but he was wrong. Over the last 10,000 years he realized if he was going to save his people, and by extension the rest of Azeroth, he learned that he would have to make hard decisions, and if there was anything he would refuse to sacrifice, it might cost him everything. So he kills a lot of good people to get closer to killing the demons.

The question the audience is supposed to ask is "Is that all worth it? Does that make him any better than the Legion?

But here the Naaru gives us an answer: It's totally worth it. Sargeras is even worse.

But the Naaru didn't account for AU Gul'dan stealing Illidan's body in order to provide a new Avatar for Sargeras. Which totally derails the Naaru's plan. Illidan will probably die tragically because the players will be forced to destroy his body.

Really, the re-introduction of Illidan was to facilitate the re-introduction of Sargeras, who needed the most powerful body on Azeroth, and that would be Illidan's.

Fortunately Anduin & Sylvanas are prefectly capable understudy 'champions of light & shadow' to lead their Armies into war on Argus.

[purebalance]

Illidan presented this moral grey area. In the War of the Ancients he thought he could save everyone, but he was wrong. Over the last 10,000 years he realized if he was going to save his people, and by extension the rest of Azeroth, he learned that he would have to make hard decisions, and if there was anything he would refuse to sacrifice, it might cost him everything. So he kills a lot of good people to get closer to killing the demons.

The question the audience is supposed to ask is "Is that all worth it? Does that make him any better than the Legion?

But here the Naaru gives us an answer: It's totally worth it. Sargeras is even worse.

But the Naaru didn't account for AU Gul'dan stealing Illidan's body in order to provide a new Avatar for Sargeras. Which totally derails the Naaru's plan. Illidan will probably die tragically because the players will be forced to destroy his body.

Really, the re-introduction of Illidan was to facilitate the re-introduction of Sargeras, who needed the most powerful body on Azeroth, and that would be Illidan's.

Fortunately Anduin & Sylvanas are prefectly capable understudy 'champions of light & shadow' to lead their Armies into war on Argus.

Illidan was never "morally grey" because everything he did that seemed good was still selfish. He was a selfish child that did things to impress Tyrande to try to make her love him. "Hmmmmm how can I save everyone to make her love me?" and that ultimately turned her to hate him more and more, and yet deep down she still has the slight spark of interest in him which we all know is there, Illidan included, thus he continues to do literally batshit crazy things to try to beat the legion in impress her.

There's nothing morally grey there. It's all a matter of dark intentions that lead to slightly good outcomes. Destroying the Naztherim homeworld was a huge success for us, but was nothing more than a "LOOK AT ME TYRANDE!!!!!! LOOOOOOK!!!! FOR YOUUUUUUUU" coupled with trying to slow the legion down for once again selfish desires of self preservation because they wanted him dead.

[Ersula]

Illidan was never "morally grey" because everything he did that seemed good was still selfish. He was a selfish child that did things to impress Tyrande to try to make her love him. "Hmmmmm how can I save everyone to make her love me?" and that ultimately turned her to hate him more and more, and yet deep down she still has the slight spark of interest in him which we all know is there, Illidan included, thus he continues to do literally batshit crazy things to try to beat the legion in impress her.

There's nothing morally grey there. It's all a matter of dark intentions that lead to slightly good outcomes. Destroying the Naztherim homeworld was a huge success for us, but was nothing more than a "LOOK AT ME TYRANDE!!!!!! LOOOOOOK!!!! FOR YOUUUUUUUU" coupled with trying to slow the legion down for once again selfish desires of self preservation because they wanted him dead.

That's just like...

...your interpretation, man. Especially when doing good things for selfish reasons don't exactly nullify those good things. And not completely consistent, as he was sent to 10,000 years prison after he screwed Tyrande over and betrayed her to Azshara. So he has certain motives outside crushing priestess puss.

[DemonHunter18]

that ship already sailed away thousands of years ago.

[Avaddon]

Illidan was never "morally grey" because everything he did that seemed good was still selfish. He was a selfish child that did things to impress Tyrande to try to make her love him. "Hmmmmm how can I save everyone to make her love me?" and that ultimately turned her to hate him more and more, and yet deep down she still has the slight spark of interest in him which we all know is there, Illidan included, thus he continues to do literally batshit crazy things to try to beat the legion in impress her.

There's nothing morally grey there. It's all a matter of dark intentions that lead to slightly good outcomes. Destroying the Naztherim homeworld was a huge success for us, but was nothing more than a "LOOK AT ME TYRANDE!!!!!! LOOOOOOK!!!! FOR YOUUUUUUUU" coupled with trying to slow the legion down for once again selfish desires of self preservation because they wanted him dead.

I'm pretty sure he stopped giving a fuck around the time he went and retrieved gul'dans skull and turned himself into exactly what tyrande hates.