Legion tanking - thoughts on direction of tanking

[Sylvaeres]

So far from the viewpoint of a Blood DK, Legion tanking is an absolute joke. I feel like there's only a few bosses in heroic dungeons that can drop me below 90% health. I feel overpowered by a mile, although it is just heroics and I've yet to find a mythic group

[Shadow Fox]

I watched Preachers video's (Waiting for Bellular's too) and read the Forums a bit; But Tanking in Legion seems really strange too me.

Not with the class identity; But the chosen abilities and our roles seem to be an absolute mess for the most part...

While I'm not maining a Tank currently; I do have tank alts around and play often for Normal/early winged Heroic raids.

Now, this is most likely going to be mostly (If not all) going to be personal preference of how I like to tank, but here it goes... And probably all information people have said before / read... Just thought I'd voice my end of it... Sorry.

That being said; I think the DPS hike up is okay for Tank roles. Do think that it should be toned to be under DPS roles; But should be high enough to grind at a reasonable rate for Questing and Farming.

I personally think a lot of the tank roles from what people have been listing on the Feedback does need to happen. Tanks do seem to be in a really bad spot in this stage of the PTR. And if all they are going to get is some damage tuning, then a large number of players are going to be discouraged from playing Tank roles, when tanking in the current stage is really not player-friendly for anyone.

The pairing of Healers with Tanks seems to be... Hit/miss? But giving the Healers the dedicated role of keeping the party alive I can understand; But shifting Mechanics around to rely on Healers doing things instead of Raid as a group, or Tanks mitigating properly / timing abilities and cooldowns to the bosses abilities is a really strange change, and I currently can't think of any game that does that.

Yes, Different! Yay!-- But, not in a way that makes sense to me?
You shouldn't be removing roles from Tanks that the game has used throughout its history that players are use to, and then screwing them over more by reducing tanking efficiencies.

(Again, from my understanding and currently playing on the Beta; and relative to other peoples feedback.)

1---
I often enjoyed my Protection Paladin during Cataclysm and Mists, and even Draenor.
Warrior Tanking I enjoyed during Classic, BC, Mists, and Draenor (Especially Gladiator, and I'm sad to see it go.).
Bear Druid... I never really got into Bear druid tanking; But did play it a bit in Mists and it was alright to me.
Brewmaster I enjoyed during Mists and Draenor.
Death Knight Tanking I haven't done much outside of Cataclysm. Think that was a time when it was really powerful, and could solo the majority of the game too, if I recall the time correctly.

2---
For Legion; I've only been able to have the time to try out Paladin and Demon Hunter so far.

A---
Paladin seems to be an absolute mess... Confusing (And near-pointless abilities) with not depth of play or synergy with other abilities; And the insanely long cooldowns for almost no mitigation (When Shield of the Righteous gives 55% as a short CD, and Ancient Kings is 50% with a insanely long CD? What the hell is the point of Ancient kings?). The Anti-Magic only "barrier" shares a cooldown position for Divine Shield (Which immunes all damage taken.) with Forbearence... Odd decision.

Prot Paladin just seems destroyed; And Sacred Duty doesn't even seem to have much of anything for Legion information; And can't really find much of anything for information on them to try and figure something out that I'm possibly missing? But I can't seem to find a point that feels right, or plays well.

Prot Paladin is just... I don't know what they where doing; But something has to be changed... It is like they just stopped doing anything for Protection Paladins once it was loaded on to the Alpha and enabled for the first time. :S


B---
Demon Hunter tanking seems insanely OP (When compared to the other tanks.)
The self-heal for a insane amount, they deal insane amounts of AoE, have really nice AoE stun and AoE Silence, have an insane amount of mobility, have really nice active mitigation, and they have really nice single target damage, too!
It's like a Mists of Pandaria era Bear Druid and Brewmaster Monk had a child, and made a Vengeance Demon Hunter, removed Shuffle. It just seems insane!

[Letdown]

I'm not going to lie, I kind of don't understand the feedback here. I feel like there's a lot of tanks saying "I don't like tanking, so I want tanks to play like X." My honest solution is to tell a lot of the people complaining to play a different class. I'll explain though if you'll bare with me.

So on /r/mmorpg, there was recently a discussion on "What's a game with a fun healer to play?" and the thread quickly turned into WoW vs. FFXIV. Several users said FFXIV has fun healing in it, but then pretty much said it's fun because you get to DPS.

What? That's not even healing. That's DPSing. You pretty much just said the healing is fun because they don't actually heal and they're a fun DPS class.

I see a parallel here. A lot of tanks seem to think that in order for tanking to be fun, they have to top a meter besides damage taken. I feel like there needs to be a "damage mitigated" meter and that would make everyone happy.

People are using anecdotes left and right -- "Oh, our DPS doesn't matter," or "Oh, I don't see what's wrong that I put out 60k HPS as a Blood Death Knight" (NO joke, I'm only 709 on my blood DK and I generally am sitting around 40-50k HP/S in LFR), "Now what I do in Legion doesn't matter."

I don't think the solution is to necessarily increase tank power, I think it's to punish bad play harder. Playing a tank properly should keep you alive -- not heal you, but keep you alive. A well played tank survives long enough to get the heal, a badly played tank dies. That's how you make tanking fun.

Because no, tanks shouldn't be beating out DPS for damage, and no, they shouldn't be beating out healers for healing. That's not your job as a tank. Your job as a tank is to take hits.

Think about tanking like you're always about to apply for a mythic guild -- do you think they are just going to look at your DPS or HPs can go "Yeah, that's a solid tank?"

No, they go look at logs and they're looking at active mitigation uptime and cooldown usage. Do you know why they look at those? Because even now, that's what defines a great tank.

That doesn't change in Legion. The only thing that changes in Legion is you can no longer solo 10% of a raid a boss.

- - - Updated - - -

A---
Paladin seems to be an absolute mess... Confusing (And near-pointless abilities) with not depth of play or synergy with other abilities; And the insanely long cooldowns for almost no mitigation (When Shield of the Righteous gives 55% as a short CD, and Ancient Kings is 50% with a insanely long CD? What the hell is the point of Ancient kings?). The Anti-Magic only "barrier" shares a cooldown position for Divine Shield (Which immunes all damage taken.) with Forbearence... Odd decision.

Prot Paladin just seems destroyed; And Sacred Duty doesn't even seem to have much of anything for Legion information; And can't really find much of anything for information on them to try and figure something out that I'm possibly missing? But I can't seem to find a point that feels right, or plays well.

Prot Paladin is just... I don't know what they where doing; But something has to be changed... It is like they just stopped doing anything for Protection Paladins once it was loaded on to the Alpha and enabled for the first time. :S


B---
Demon Hunter tanking seems insanely OP (When compared to the other tanks.)
The self-heal for a insane amount, they deal insane amounts of AoE, have really nice AoE stun and AoE Silence, have an insane amount of mobility, have really nice active mitigation, and they have really nice single target damage, too!
It's like a Mists of Pandaria era Bear Druid and Brewmaster Monk had a child, and made a Vengeance Demon Hunter, removed Shuffle. It just seems insane!

Not to be a jerk, but I haven't seen a single one of the popular twitch streamers or major progression tanks agree with your assessment. Most think DH are "okay, fun to play but okay power wise." The worst Paladin gets accused of is being incredibly boring but incredibly powerful with the largest amount of defensive CDs as well as the most powerful defensive CDs.

[Raiju]

I see a parallel here. A lot of tanks seem to think that in order for tanking to be fun, they have to top a meter besides damage taken. I feel like there needs to be a "damage mitigated" meter and that would make everyone happy.

I don't see anyone asking to top meters, just that strawman being used by those against tanks doing meaningful dps. A lot of people enjoyed the vengeance mechanic but appreciate it's not coming back. That being said, tanks should have a way to convert their mitigation into dps that matters (not as much as a dps, but still relevant) and feels rewarding. We have 'damage mitigated' metrics, but it's irrelevant if you're mitigating enough that things are smooth.

People are using anecdotes left and right -- "Oh, our DPS doesn't matter," or "Oh, I don't see what's wrong that I put out 60k HPS as a Blood Death Knight" (NO joke, I'm only 709 on my blood DK and I generally am sitting around 40-50k HP/S in LFR), "Now what I do in Legion doesn't matter."

To put it bluntly, noone gives a shit how OP you are in LFR. You don't need tank specs in LFR, and the nature of the blood dk's is they trivialize any content they far overgear (which you are doing 30-40 ilvls above the intended, doing the easiest possible content) but likewise get slaughtered when undergeared. This is not related to tanks as a whole.

I don't think the solution is to necessarily increase tank power, I think it's to punish bad play harder. Playing a tank properly should keep you alive -- not heal you, but keep you alive. A well played tank survives long enough to get the heal, a badly played tank dies. That's how you make tanking fun.

This has been the point blizzard has beem hardest on - tanks are NOT meant to be punishing according to them, no matter what we aren't getting that so it's pointless to ask.

Because no, tanks shouldn't be beating out DPS for damage, and no, they shouldn't be beating out healers for healing. That's not your job as a tank. Your job as a tank is to take hits.

They don't and they don't. Once again, don't bring overgearing (lol) LFR (lol) into this.

Think about tanking like you're always about to apply for a mythic guild -- do you think they are just going to look at your DPS or HPs can go "Yeah, that's a solid tank?"

They will make sure you are using your mitigation appropriately, past that they will check your personal hps (it's part of your toolkit btw - healing your damage taken IS mitigating damage - especially for blood dk), your execution of mechanics and yes, your dps.

No, they go look at logs and they're looking at active mitigation uptime and cooldown usage. Do you know why they look at those? Because even now, that's what defines a great tank.

That doesn't change in Legion. The only thing that changes in Legion is you can no longer solo 10% of a raid a boss.

Noone gives your shit about your active mitigation uptime for half the tanks because it's not relevant and it's easy to see if they're using it at relevant points anyway. How do you even measure AM uptime for a DK? Please, enlighten us all.

[Letdown]

I don't see anyone asking to top meters, just that strawman being used by those against tanks doing meaningful dps. A lot of people enjoyed the vengeance mechanic but appreciate it's not coming back. That being said, tanks should have a way to convert their mitigation into dps that matters (not as much as a dps, but still relevant) and feels rewarding. We have 'damage mitigated' metrics, but it's irrelevant if you're mitigating enough that things are smooth.

The people asking for vengeance to come back are wanting to top meters, and you can't honestly tell me no one's asking for vengeance to come back. Secondly, what's meaningful? What do you define as meaningful? Let's say, just for the sake of example, a fight requires a collective 35k DPS to complete. IF your DPSers are doing 30k DPS, and your tank does 3k, and your disc priest does 2k, does the tank do meaningful DPS then? Or is it an arbitrary percentage that satiates "meaningful?" If tanks do 75% of a DPSers damage, why bring DPS when you could lower your healer needs by oversaturating with tanks?

To put it bluntly, noone gives a shit how OP you are in LFR. You don't need tank specs in LFR, and the nature of the blood dk's is they trivialize any content they far overgear (which you are doing 30-40 ilvls above the intended, doing the easiest possible content) but likewise get slaughtered when undergeared. This is not related to tanks as a whole.

My HPS doesn't change in normal, my ilvl is too low for heroic for most groups. I was also pulling 25k+ hps when I was in 660 gear doing Mythic dungeons, was I overgeared for those too?

This has been the point blizzard has beem hardest on - tanks are NOT meant to be punishing according to them, no matter what we aren't getting that so it's pointless to ask.

Cool, I'm going to ask anyway because that's how you create meaningful gameplay, so it's going to continue being the feedback I give.

They don't and they don't. Once again, don't bring overgearing (lol) LFR (lol) into this.

I think it's funny how this community will simultaneously complain about people being able to solo/duo heal Mythic while trying to argue that tanks aren't broken right now. They do and they do. I've 100% had pulls in normal HFC where I was 1st for healing and 1st damage and I'm only 709, so while yes I overgear it, it's not by a mile.

They will make sure you are using your mitigation appropriately, past that they will check your personal hps (it's part of your toolkit btw - healing your damage taken IS mitigating damage - especially for blood dk), your execution of mechanics and yes, your dps.

And I am sure that's why Kungen gets laughed at now, right, because DPS is such a high priority for tanks? How can DPS be so irrelevant for tanks that mythic guilds use it as a recruitment measure...? Do you not see the conflicting narrative there? Am I missing something where DPS is irrelevant yet is a metric mythic guilds measure tank applicants by?

No one gives your shit about your active mitigation uptime for half the tanks because it's not relevant and it's easy to see if they're using it at relevant points anyway. How do you even measure AM uptime for a DK? Please, enlighten us all.

I forgot that blood DK is the only tank in the game, please forgive me. I missed the patch notes where Druid, Warrior, Paladin, and Monk were removed from the game in Warlords.

Also I'm pretty sure most mythic guilds are going to look at how often am I Rune Tapping, Blood Tapping, and Desecrating just for starters -- probably most of my short CDs as well. Can also see if I used my big cooldowns at the right time -- was I coupling Vampiric Blood with Gift of the Naaru properly, things like that.

Could be wrong, not totally sure, I'm only 709 and have never applied for a Mythic guild. Please, show mercy on me your mighty lordship. Tanks should be the one true class, capable of healing, DPSing, and tanking all at the EXACT same time.

[Raiju]

TL;DR guy mentions how his overgeared blood dk snipes healing in trivial content, complains when I counter using examples of blood dk and attempts to deflect to other tanks. Good job there.

Desecrating

Oh god. I feel bad for falling for you now.

[Letdown]

TL;DR guy mentions how his overgeared blood dk snipes healing in trivial content, complains when I counter using examples of blood dk and attempts to deflect to other tanks. Good job there.



Oh god. I feel bad for falling for you now.

So rather than educate me, or explain to me why I'm wrong when I flat out admit my experience is limited to LFR/normal, this is the response you offer me.

Not to mention I used blood DK as an example because it's the only tank I've played in WoW? Do you want me to give you tanking examples from other games? Sorry I've been healing for the last 10+ years, I only moved to blood DK a couple months ago, it's the only tank I even pretend to know decently well and I know I don't play it well enough to get a spot on a Mythic roster, I'm too conservative with cooldowns. Somehow because I used the example of a blood DK all the other tanks are irrelevant? I don't even understand what you're trying to argue at this point.

Can't imagine why the MMO-C community has the reputation it does though when we have such eloquent posters like you. 6.5/10, no comeback mechanics.

[Raiju]

So rather than educate me, or explain to me why I'm wrong when I flat out admit my experience is limited to LFR/normal, this is the response you offer me.

Can't imagine why the MMO-C community has the reputation it does. 6.5/10, no comeback mechanics.

I debated it, but I've done that far too often for someone to outright deny it all. If you were at all interested in learning your DK you would've been on the class guides here or elsewhere at some point and had a critical look at your talents.

It's a waste of time since when you're so strongly opposed to anything I say you're not going to accept it regardless.

[Letdown]

I debated it, but I've done that far too often for someone to outright deny it all. If you were at all interested in learning your DK you would've been on the class guides here or elsewhere at some point and had a critical look at your talents.

It's a waste of time since when you're so strongly opposed to anything I say you're not going to accept it regardless.

I have looked at class guides, video guides, etc. I've looked at my talents as well. Not really sure where you're seeing my talents, but I've done my homework. I'm more conservative with my cooldowns than would be acceptable in a progression group. I'm aware of that. I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

You haven't actually said anything to me at all. You pretty much took half a paragraph to go "LOL YOU'RE WRONG!" without offering any information. Your refusal to actually provide information makes me 100000% sure you have no idea what you're talking about at this point though, which is pretty disappointing.

[Raiju]

Surely the fact I mentioned desecrate should be a hint