BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Deleted]

I've always wondered about the argument how GB should be best on it's own and it's always been.
If you roll back the last 100 years has it really been that great for GB ? Empire gone, losing alot of it's former power and financial might plus leaving EU might push Scotland to get a reason to leave (again).

Feels a bit like people are using rose tinted googles when thinking about the "good ol' days".

You still will have to trade with the EU just losing out on being able to have a say on how it acts or the terms. I'm not very fond of how the EU is run and would like alot of things changed but i can't wrap my head around how leaving gives you more power ?

[Hottage]

i can't wrap my head around how leaving gives you more power ?

I can't wrap my head around why people think a failed investment banker is the best bet to #MAKEBRITAINGREATAGAIN.

[Whitehatter]

Still want to a bit more research, currently leaning leave though.

agreed

it's like having a shitty job and deciding you want to leave, but you better have another job lined up if you do.

[Nigel Tufnel]

b)TTIP doesn't "introduce" ISDS. /snip

Sorry - I copy/pasted that bit just to make sure the terminology was accurate; it wasn't (shouldn't trust The Independent). You're right about the term "introduce" being incorrect. But I'm not really sure what bigger point it is you're making. An elected government makes a change in policy, possibly on the demand of the electorate who voted it in, and then industry can sue the government for making that change? E.g. Vattenfall vs Germany is something you want to actively encourage? Why should the existence of ISDS make their use any more acceptable?

c) Democratic accountability:
You do directly elect the European Parliament and the President of the European Commission. /snip

Completely lost me here... we do not elect directly the President of the European Commission. The EC votes for a nominee for the post of president and the nominee has to be approved by the European Parliament. I don't understand that as the electorate choosing a president directly.

If you think democratic accountability is bad in the EU, then why would want to return power to a political system that has even lower democratic accountability?. /snip

It still amazes me that the UK rejected AV in 2011. By democratic accountability, I literally mean the ability of the electorate to turn up with pitch forks to demand that their politicians behave in the manner they want them to. I'm much more in favour of devolution of power, strong local governance and healthy local democracies. This is a criticism of the UK system too. Too often both Labour and Tory governments have acted in the interests of the city of London / the South East only. I do not believe centralisation of political power is a good thing.

All in all: the UK referendum has fuck all to do with national sovereignty and everything with reactionairy conservatives trying to control the UK through its broken voting system.

I think that's oversimplifying it. People from all sides of the political spectrum are campaigning for Leave for different reasons. I agree all this "Make Britain Great Again" bollocks etc. pedalled by the far right is dangerous, nationalistic rubbish that needs to be stamped on. But it's such a multi-faceted debate. It's not split simply down left / right lines.

Well, I have. The reason you didn't is because that responsibility was left to your country in regards to your votes and they choose to trash them in a boycott.

Well, you're in a very, very small minority. The average woman/man on the street wouldn't be able to. I'm not (completely) thick and take an active interest in local and international politics and I couldn't have named those voting blocs off the top of my head.

[Kalis]

Remain, but make sure we maintain our vetoes and opt outs.

The extent of any nations involvement in the EU should be up to that nation, one size does not fit all.

[Deleted]

Surprised to see a lack of debate about this.

Leave or remain?

There's a lack of debate about it because few people are that bothered about which elite cabal of neo-monetarists fucks us over.

Additionally, the issue is so complex it is impossible to anticipate what will happen if we leave or stay.

I'm probably not voting - can't stand the Germans, but can't stand Farage, Gove and their loathsome dog-whistle appeals to dumb racists.

[Aeula]

Leave, I'm willing to trade a short term economical loss for freedom from Brussels and the right to control our own borders.

[Paklaaji]

Immigration? Its positive and I hope it remains as it is.

Never thought I`d see someone cheering for the undermining of his culture, traditions and customs.
Britian is becoming less British as days go by. Sad.

[Deleted]

Remain, but make sure we maintain our vetoes and opt outs.

The extent of any nations involvement in the EU should be up to that nation, one size does not fit all.

Translation: don't regulate my sector properly so our free ride at the expense of the public ends.

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Never thought I`d see someone cheering for the undermining of his culture, traditions and customs.
Britian is becoming less British as days go by. Sad.

What culture? You people are always blathering about this stuff. You do much Morris dancing do you?

[Venaliter]

I would say the greatest threat to Western civilization is Islamic immigration. I would probably leave just based on how dismal the EU handles Islamic immigration. Case in point? Syria. 'nuff said.

[Deleted]

This thread is really asking if you want to be part of a suicide pact or not..

[Deleted]

I would say the greatest threat to Western civilization is Islamic immigration. I would probably leave just based on how dismal the EU handles Islamic immigration. Case in point? Syria. 'nuff said.

And here comes the Islamophobe with his al-quaeda style hi-jacking of the thread....

[Bethanie]

Whilst I am sure there would be temporary economic hardships, I think they are a price worth paying and that leaving the EU is for the best.

As an English Democrat, the single best thing that can come out of the UK leaving the EU, is the break up of the UK and independence for England. The pro EU camp like to point out that the UK gets more money back than it contributes to the EU, and whilst this is true, they fail to point out that Scotland and Northern Ireland get back far more than their fair share compared to England. Yet another example of the English tax payer being forced to subsidize Scotland and Northern Ireland.

[Paklaaji]

And here comes the Islamophobe with his al-quaeda style hi-jacking of the thread....

Objecting to an absolutist, extremely potent religion which does not merge with the host country is not a phobia.

[Deleted]

Can we all stop using the fucking Brexit word, today on the radio I have also heard Brexiteer, Brextuists and Brexters.

Now back on topic, lets get the fuck out of an un democratic union we fought two world wars to avoid, yeah it might fuck us up for a few years, but there is light at the end of the tunnel, stop looking after your own purse strings and think bigger.

vote leave, vote we can do better

[Ratyrel]

Additionally, the issue is so complex it is impossible to anticipate what will happen if we leave or stay.

All the bickering and emotional blether about traditions and national values aside, this is the core issue. The outcome of leaving the EU is completely unclear; to my mind the obvious consequence of this is that it should not be up for debate, nor should it be left for majority vote to decide. If leaving the EU has no advantages that can be positively determined, why leave?

Can you expand on this idea, I'm struggling to find a meaning.

He considers the EU doomed by self-destruction, probably on the basis of concerns over asylum policy.

[Muadiib]

You should make it a poll, I'm 100% leave, we were a trading powerhouse before joining the EU and we can be again. Hopefully we will renew ties with the common wealth nations and the US. That is where our real friends are. Although it would be nice to form better relationships with some European nations as well. Nigel Farage should be our Prime Minister as well, now that is a leader, he's the nearest we have to a British Trump (another good leader).

Make Britain Great again!

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Whilst I am sure there would be temporary economic hardships, I think they are a price worth paying and that leaving the EU is for the best.

As an English Democrat, the single best thing that can come out of the UK leaving the EU, is the break up of the UK and independence for England. The pro EU camp like to point out that the UK gets more money back than it contributes to the EU, and whilst this is true, they fail to point out that Scotland and Northern Ireland get back far more than their fair share compared to England. Yet another example of the English tax payer being forced to subsidize Scotland and Northern Ireland.

No we are far stronger together, not the EU of course but the UK, if some nations aren't pulling their weight then they need to start. I'd need to see some facts though to confirm that.

[Paklaaji]

My personal take is this - staying or leaving doesn`t matter. EU as an institution, organization is weakening. The fracture of European unity has already started.
At core issues that matter, EU members simply ignore Brussels - see Hungary, Poland and others.

It`ll never go back to the way it was before 2008. Once Germany is hit in the face like other exporters are, it`ll become a meaningless club for rich bureaucrats to show up and compare their luxury suits.

[ati87]

Whilst I am sure there would be temporary economic hardships, I think they are a price worth paying and that leaving the EU is for the best.

As an English Democrat, the single best thing that can come out of the UK leaving the EU, is the break up of the UK and independence for England. The pro EU camp like to point out that the UK gets more money back than it contributes to the EU, and whilst this is true, they fail to point out that Scotland and Northern Ireland get back far more than their fair share compared to England. Yet another example of the English tax payer being forced to subsidize Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Not sure what that has to do with the EU though especially after England worked really hard to keep Scotland part of the UK.

For argument sake if your claim is true
the money your ''paying'' to Scotland and N-ireland is money you would be paying anyway because that money is going their for a reason. But instead of sharing the burden with the rest of the EU your going to be paying that all by yourself.

Don't forget EU money isn't free money you can use to ''party'', it's used to improve the overall region so it's money you probably would be spending on those specific regions anyway or you could see them crumble because of lack of investments.

[Kalis]

Translation: don't regulate my sector properly so our free ride at the expense of the public ends.

How exactly would the City of London become more regulated if Britain leaves the EU?

We may as well rinse as much from Europe as possible and share that amongst the people of Britain, and before you come out with some nonsense about tax evasion, take a look at which region of the country subsidises all the rest bar Scotland.