20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Deleted]

I get that you and Os hate anything that takes skill but this is bullshit. The goal is to set a high bar but from any rational point of view you'd want to maintain the prior expansion's population level etc. Especially early on when there were actually more subs in WoD than for most of MoP. See my reply to Os for rational thought vs this idiotic 'elitism is bad' crap you and he have going on.

The raids are always tuned to keep a rough %age of around 5% actually clearing when current. If blizzard just had a set goal of skill in mind, they would not have entered into an arms race with their subscribers in making encounters harder and harder over time.

Fwiw, I also have nothing at all against things which take skill. Mythic doesn't take playing skill as much as good if slightly sociopathic man management and boatloads of persistence, i can't be arsed with the former and don't have enough of the latter to worry about mythic.

- - - Updated - - -

Not neccessarily. When I say "casual hardcore" I mean the umpteen bajillion 6-8/14H guilds in SoO who never intended to clear anything further because half their roster were window lickers.

Always been really common in wow to have a load of guilds where half the raid isn't much good but they all get on and its worth avoiding drama to sacrifice a bit of progress. Community spirit and all that.

Ofc almost all those guilds have been murdered.

[kary]

Not neccessarily. When I say "casual hardcore" I mean the umpteen bajillion 6-8/14H guilds in SoO who never intended to clear anything further because half their roster were window lickers.

Yeah the guys that kill all the free loot bosses and are walled by anything with any sort of mechanics. Beer league

[Relapses]

Always been really common in wow to have a load of guilds where half the raid isn't much good but they all get on and its worth avoiding drama to sacrifice a bit of progress. Community spirit and all that.

Ofc almost all those guilds have been murdered.

With good reason. They shouldn't have existed in the first place. Cata/MoP gave rise to a type of raider who didn't want to bother progressing because it was just as easy to show up every week with the same group of window lickers and kill the easy bosses. And if those players didn't show up, as the dude before you said, you could just wrestle together 9 random people and as long as you had a modicum of communication/intelligence, you'd probably kill a few bosses. This was, imo, unhealthy for the game since it greatly inflated the number of people who were "raiding at the hardest difficulty level."

This is where I get the most flak because it's interpreted as an elitist viewpoint. But if you're going to do Mythic raiding, you should intend to clear the instance. Even if that means you do it with 4/4 upgrades after the instance nerfed into oblivion, at least you accomplished something. I personally think progression raiding is awesome and it's great to see a raid learn from its mistakes and improve to the level necessary to defeat the boss they're working on. The casual hardcore raiders never bothered to do this because they never had to improve. They knew that even if they sucked dick at the game, they could still have access to at least half the best gear in the game... and for them, that was enough.

There's something about having to maintain a larger roster which pushes groups into inherently desiring further progression. Even the shitty 5-7M guilds in HFC tend to spend some of their allotted raid time working on progression bosses. I feel like this kind of environment -- one with a higher barrier for entry but more incentive to work through the instance -- is far better for the game than one which facilitated what I would frankly describe as lazy entitlement. The fact that many of these players displaced by the shift to 20M are so outspoken in their disapproval of the move is further proof of this.

And before you get on my ass for compartmentalizing all 10M raiders as inferior subhumans, please realize I understand this broad stroke doesn't apply to all players who raided at this size. 10M guilds who at least progressed and attempted to defeat further encounters in the instance were fine. 10M raids consisting of yourself and 9 unknown mongoloids you conscripted from trade chat or the likes of the raid leader's best friend's third sister's fourth grade music teacher's girlfriend who can barely operate a computer much less understand what raiding is... not so much. When the announcement of the move to 20M came through, the former group had an easier time finding people for the move up since progression typically entices players to join; the latter did not and was subsequently eliminated.

[clevin]

Dude, you're making a lot of really stretched presumptions here. I hardly think the access to Mythic raiding drove away nearly as many subs as you seem to be indicating.

Fucking hell - would you all read what people say and not assume thing? I DID NOT make the argument that it drove away a lot of people in absolute terms, I think it drove people away who liked the 10 man heroic format. That may well be a lot of top tier raiders... and not all that many in terms of overall population.

And the fact that you're using this very weak presumption to come to the conclusion that Mythic raid participation is somehow indicative of the health of the game is pretty self-serving.

Kindly fuck right off. You made up arguments, put those words in my mouth and proceed to whine about them. Stop doing that.

There are arguments to be made in favor or against it but I personally believe the devs are perfectly fine with the number of players completing Mythic content decreasing from the Cata/MoP model. The Heroic (now Mythic) raid participation levels from Cata/MoP are greatly inflated by 10H "casual hardcore" raiders which this system brought about. And honestly, they never should have existed in the first place. 20M Mythic is a stark shift away from catering to these players and again, that's why I think this is such a hot-button issue for a lot of people.

They might be, but that's not really rational. No rational vendor alienates segments of their customer base on purpose.

[Relapses]

Fucking hell - would you all read what people say and not assume thing? I DID NOT make the argument that it drove away a lot of people in absolute terms, I think it drove people away who liked the 10 man heroic format. That may well be a lot of top tier raiders... and not all that many in terms of overall population.



Kindly fuck right off. You made up arguments, put those words in my mouth and proceed to whine about them. Stop doing that.



They might be, but that's not really rational. No rational vendor alienates segments of their customer base on purpose.

No rational vendor... how the fuck do you speak on behalf of Blizzard? You're accusing me of being incapable of reading and you've completely ignored literally everything I've written. Your idea of "rationality" is a product of your own twisted interpretation of what they've done.

[clevin]

No rational vendor... how the fuck do you speak on behalf of Blizzard? You're accusing me of being incapable of reading and you've completely ignored literally everything I've written. Your idea of "rationality" is a product of your own twisted interpretation of what they've done.

Mother of god... you really don't realize you're making shit up, putting it in people's mouths and then disagreeing with your made up BS, do you?

I didn't claim to speak on behalf of Blizzard. My ' no rational vendor' comment was about what companies who are being rational do - or rather don't do. They don't alienate paying customers just because.

Now, since you're slow, I'll say this simply... It's possible Blizzard wasn't being rational about this. It's possible they thought they were and made a mistake (i.e. 'guilds will have a year to recruit, it will be fine' when some people didn't want to grow, period). It's possible they feel this design is better EVEN IF they alienate people.

Anyway, you're on the ignore list. It's annoying to have people make shit up, tell me it's what I said or meant, then argue with me about it.

[kary]

Or maybe they were rational, in wanting to have the raids at their highest difficulty to be the same experience for all that attempt it.
Nah.
Ofc not.

[Relapses]

LOL, I don't even know how to respond to somebody who puts me on ignore the second his authoritative viewpoint is questioned. I can admit to misinterpreting information but I have absolutely no fucking idea how I would have been able to inference what he's saying from what he originally wrote. I guess I'll have to be careful the next time I question somebody about the rationality plateau by which apparently all businesses adhere themselves.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[therayeffect]

Personally I'd call it a 'success' but it's hard to see anything about WoD as a success given how frustrating the game has been overall.

[GiefEpixe]

So much BS again on these last pages.

The only thing that makes 20m Mythic more exclusive is the increased amount of required logistics, definitely not the required skill. The recruitment boss just got a huge buff. That's it. Sidenote: Great design choice to make things more exclusive when your sub numbers are constantly dropping. I wonder how that will turn out...

Secondly, blablabla "every class represented" in 20m. One encounter where that had any relevance at all in the entire expansion, and even in that case it wasn't a necessity. Ridiculous argument.

[kary]

So much BS again on these last pages.

The only thing that makes 20m Mythic more exclusive is the increased amount of required logistics, definitely not the required skill. The recruitment boss just got a huge buff. That's it. Sidenote: Great design choice to make things more exclusive when your sub numbers are constantly dropping. I wonder how that will turn out...

Secondly, blablabla "every class represented" in 20m. One encounter where that had any relevance at all in the entire expansion, and even in that case it wasn't a necessity. Ridiculous argument.

You mean reduced logistics, because 25man guilds existed and were always premier :P

[Lilija]

I can't think of a single encounter that I'd call strictly impossible with a somewhat reasonable rosters.

Lei Shen 25m heroic w/o DKs

[Deleted]

With good reason. They shouldn't have existed in the first place. Cata/MoP gave rise to a type of raider who didn't want to bother progressing because it was just as easy to show up every week with the same group of window lickers and kill the easy bosses. And if those players didn't show up, as the dude before you said, you could just wrestle together 9 random people and as long as you had a modicum of communication/intelligence, you'd probably kill a few bosses. This was, imo, unhealthy for the game since it greatly inflated the number of people who were "raiding at the hardest difficulty level."

You see, while I see where you are coming from, its doesn't really jibe with the history of the game. Raiding slowly became harder and harder over time, in each step up it left behind some players who could previously operate just fine.

A lot of the players who couldn't handle LK had been just fine in TK and kara. A lot of players who could handle LK couldn't handle BWD. A lot of players who could handle BWD couldn't handle Garalon etc Its been incremental.

This is where I get the most flak because it's interpreted as an elitist viewpoint. But if you're going to do Mythic raiding, you should intend to clear the instance. Even if that means you do it with 4/4 upgrades after the instance nerfed into oblivion, at least you accomplished something. I personally think progression raiding is awesome and it's great to see a raid learn from its mistakes and improve to the level necessary to defeat the boss they're working on. The casual hardcore raiders never bothered to do this because they never had to improve. They knew that even if they sucked dick at the game, they could still have access to at least half the best gear in the game... and for them, that was enough.

I agree, actually. The problem isn't so much any particular difficulty level, its switching things up all the time that causes people to lose their shit. I'm still pissed off 10 man normal is no longer a thing. loads of blizzards moves seem to be change for changes sake.

There's something about having to maintain a larger roster which pushes groups into inherently desiring further progression. Even the shitty 5-7M guilds in HFC tend to spend some of their allotted raid time working on progression bosses. I feel like this kind of environment -- one with a higher barrier for entry but more incentive to work through the instance -- is far better for the game than one which facilitated what I would frankly describe as lazy entitlement. The fact that many of these players displaced by the shift to 20M are so outspoken in their disapproval of the move is further proof of this.

I think its just that in order to be willing to put up with the bullshit that goes with herding 20 cats, you must want it more than those who are happy at 10 or flex or whatever. This selects for the more ambitious sort of guild and raid leader.

Although I don't know about better for the game in general. ideally you want stuff for everyone, the hardcore raid focus of wod has been shite for huge swathes of players, which is why they quit. Would a drop in encounter difficulty, the reducing down to ten man of all raids been better for the bulk of players? Yeah, probably. But then so would have adding some actual content beyond raiding, so here we are.

And before you get on my ass for compartmentalizing all 10M raiders as inferior subhumans, please realize I understand this broad stroke doesn't apply to all players who raided at this size. 10M guilds who at least progressed and attempted to defeat further encounters in the instance were fine. 10M raids consisting of yourself and 9 unknown mongoloids you conscripted from trade chat or the likes of the raid leader's best friend's third sister's fourth grade music teacher's girlfriend who can barely operate a computer much less understand what raiding is... not so much. When the announcement of the move to 20M came through, the former group had an easier time finding people for the move up since progression typically entices players to join; the latter did not and was subsequently eliminated.

Oh not at all mate, i see what you are saying just fine. I agree with you, in fact. If hard modes had been super hard beyond the reach of mortals from the get go, it would have saved a lot of problems. So would a consistent difficult range over time.

Can't really blame the players though, this is all on blizzard.

[Deleted]

Although I don't know about better for the game in general. ideally you want stuff for everyone, the hardcore raid focus of wod has been shite for huge swathes of players, which is why they quit. Would a drop in encounter difficulty, the reducing down to ten man of all raids been better for the bulk of players? Yeah, probably. But then so would have adding some actual content beyond raiding, so here we are.

There is stuff for everyone. Raiding has 4 difficulties! Just because the hardest one cannot be done by everyone doesn't mean they have nothing to do.
Don't have the will to have a 20 man roster? Up to Heroic it is!
Don't have the will to commit to some hardship? Up to normal it is!
Don't have the will to join a guild? LFR it is!

Mythic beging somewhat exclusive is not a bad thing.
It's the same thing as with a job, if you just want enough money to survive you can take a low requirements job like scrubs toilets. But if you want wealth you have to do a job that has higher requirements and you need to WORK to get these requirements!

[Deleted]

There is stuff for everyone. Raiding has 4 difficulties! Just because the hardest one cannot be done by everyone doesn't mean they have nothing to do.
Don't have the will to have a 20 man roster? Up to Heroic it is!
Don't have the will to commit to some hardship? Up to normal it is!
Don't have the will to join a guild? LFR it is!

Shame the thing I want - small scale (10-12 person) raids wasn't available at launch though, eh?

Mythic beging somewhat exclusive is not a bad thing.

I agree completely. it should be very exclusive indeed. Ideally, minus any gear upgrades so that people who aren't interested in the challenge aren't tempted and midcore raiders don't have to deal with a constant slight pressure to makes others in their raid git gud and can stay at their natural level.

It's the same thing as with a job, if you just want enough money to survive you can take a low requirements job like scrubs toilets. But if you want wealth you have to do a job that has higher requirements and you need to WORK to get these requirements!

Yeah, no. Mythic is about man management and persistence, not effort. If mythic was about effort it would be like Final fantasy bosses, stuff thats mechanically easy but can take up to 6 hours to take down.

[Saiona]

Shame the thing I want - small scale (10-12 person) raids wasn't available at launch though, eh?


I agree completely. it should be very exclusive indeed. Ideally, minus any gear upgrades so that people who aren't interested in the challenge aren't tempted and midcore raiders don't have to deal with a constant slight pressure to makes others in their raid git gud and can stay at their natural level.


Yeah, no. Mythic is about man management and persistence, not effort. If mythic was about effort it would be like Final fantasy bosses, stuff thats mechanically easy but can take up to 6 hours to take down.

I don't know how people ever found hour + long bosses fun. They are just sponges. I think I read everquest had like 8 hour bosses and that's just ridiculous. I do miss long fights like Illidans 25min enrage timer. I liked Imperator, but I also liked Blackhand's short fight. Mechanics definitely make fights better and this is why WoW still has the best raiding to this day.

[Deleted]

I don't know how people ever found hour + long bosses fun. They are just sponges. I think I read everquest had like 8 hour bosses and that's just ridiculous. I do miss long fights like Illidans 25min enrage timer. I liked Imperator, but I also liked Blackhand's short fight. Mechanics definitely make fights better and this is why WoW still has the best raiding to this day.

Aye.

Wow raiding is twitch skill co ordination based game, its not got much to do with effort in the usual sense. Theres been a sort of meta where you needed (someone) to run the numbers and find out optimal builds and you have to learn rotations, but after that its just learnign strategies. Most players have just copied youtube. Not much effort in that.

[Saiona]

Aye.

Wow raiding is twitch skill co ordination based game, its not got much to do with effort in the usual sense. Theres been a sort of meta where you needed (someone) to run the numbers and find out optimal builds and you have to learn rotations, but after that its just learnign strategies. Most players have just copied youtube. Not much effort in that.

Ehh I find spatial awareness and common sense the most valuable attribute of a mythic raider. Being able to react to these and process information quickly is not something I would call "twitch" skill.

[Deleted]

Shame the thing I want - small scale (10-12 person) raids wasn't available at launch though, eh?


I agree completely. it should be very exclusive indeed. Ideally, minus any gear upgrades so that people who aren't interested in the challenge aren't tempted and midcore raiders don't have to deal with a constant slight pressure to makes others in their raid git gud and can stay at their natural level.


Yeah, no. Mythic is about man management and persistence, not effort. If mythic was about effort it would be like Final fantasy bosses, stuff thats mechanically easy but can take up to 6 hours to take down.

Well in Vanilla you could do most bosses with 10 skilled people, the other 30 were more of meat shields and a help if someone messed up. But yes, but i think more then 2 difficulties are only needed if you don't have dungeons content. Which they will have with legion, so it would make sense to cut the Raid back to normal and mythic.

The gear upgrades are fine, they are an incentive to push yourself to get better. Just like promotions exist to make people give their best

Management takes effort, and "mastering" the mechanics of bosses and classes takes effort. So yes it's about effort.

[Kaniinchen]

Success, because.